Russia v Ukraine

[PhilT2]

Claims to be using Aussie supplied howitzers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic-ACnJvw4k
If true, good to see them used effectively.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

Claims to be using Aussie supplied howitzers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ic-ACnJvw4k
If true, good to see them used effectively.

Fixed it for you..

[xkxlxm]

We'll need those howitzers back when the Chinese attack us from their new base in the Solomons.

[PhilT2]

Originally Posted by xkxlxm

We'll need those howitzers back when the Chinese attack us from their new base in the Solomons.

Why would they invade? They own a big slice of this country already, they could just make us an offer on the rest. We'll sell it to them cheap without a shot being fired.

How would you react if some of the Chinese here decided that the all the cattle properties they own in Australia should become an independent Chinese republic in the same way the Russian citizens set up independent states in Ukraine, Moldovia and Georgia?

[burnz]

https://www.rt.com/news/555214-eu-de...ine-financing/

worth a read, us doing the same..

[xkxlxm]

PhilT2: you make some good points there.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

Why would they invade? They own a big slice of this country already, they could just make us an offer on the rest. We'll sell it to them cheap without a shot being fired.

How would you react if some of the Chinese here decided that the all the cattle properties they own in Australia should become an independent Chinese republic in the same way the Russian citizens set up independent states in Ukraine, Moldovia and Georgia?

Ah, you mean similar to what Prince Leonard did?


http://www.principality-hutt-river.com

[PhilT2]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

Ah, you mean similar to what Prince Leonard did?


http://www.principality-hutt-river.com

Tried to do, it never actually worked out for him did it? Well it worked out in a way it got lots of tourists into the place and he sold lots of bodgie citizenships but he never got to be exempt from paying Aussie taxes.
But the point is you just can't carve out a section of a sovereign country and say you're independent and not paying tax or following laws any more. Doesn't work out well usually; US civil war for example.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

...in the same way the Russian citizens set up independent states in Ukraine, Moldovia and Georgia?

Their majority decided to do it.
Sounds like democracy at work to me...exactly what the West preaches.

An inconvenient vote by Russians still counts.

[PhilT2]

Originally Posted by zilo

Their majority decided to do it.
Sounds like democracy at work to me...exactly what the West preaches.

An inconvenient vote by Russians still counts.

When I was in Moscow a Russian explained to me how they do voting over there. Russian voting has nothing to do with democracy.

[T3rminator]

So May 9th came and went with no noticeable escalation?

Sweden and Finland due to make a call this week on whether they will seek NATO membership.

Meanwhile...

Lithuania designates Russia as a terrorist country, a global first
https://www.npr.org/2022/05/10/10979...nocide-ukraine

They have also said the only way for peace in Europe is a regime change in Russia. Sounds familiar.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

So May 9th came and went with no noticeable escalation?

Putin (Russia) like the West has to be careful what is said and done, Putin knows he is walking a thin line.
Cheers

[.:4:.]

So by no means am i talking politics. Im not all over that anyways.
But say russia win. They gain a territory thats been blown to crap and will need a full rebuild. Also i doubt any financial sanctions will be lifted. If the ukraine win and maintain their independence, id assume they'll receive international aid, but still, the place will need a rebuild as its been blown to crap.
So does either side actually win? To myself it just looks like a pointless waste of lives and economy.

[T3rminator]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

So by no means am i talking politics. Im not all over that anyways.
But say russia win. They gain a territory thats been blown to crap and will need a full rebuild. Also i doubt any financial sanctions will be lifted. If the ukraine win and maintain their independence, id assume they'll receive international aid, but still, the place will need a rebuild as its been blown to crap.
So does either side actually win? To myself it just looks like a pointless waste of lives and economy.

To define a "win" (or loss) you would need to judge it on each side's objectives. Buildings and the immediate Ukraine economy doesn't seem to be an objective for any of the parties involved. A lot of it does get back to politics, and that goes beyond Russia vs Ukraine.

Safe to say, the ordinary people of Ukraine are the losers. And personally I think the ordinary people of Europe are also in strife in the long run - energy, food, security instability (look at all the weapons being thrown in there and which hands they are falling into). Middle east MK2.

[PhilT2]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

To define a "win" (or loss) you would need to judge it on each side's objectives.

The Russians have always regarded Sevastopol in Crimea as a strategically important base for their Black Sea fleet. It is usually referred to as their only warm water naval base. Maybe the other bases freeze over during the winter. The other ports on the Azov and Black Sea are used by ships exporting grain and oil so its important for Russia to have access to them.

There are also reserves of oil, gas and minerals in Ukraine that Russia might need. The existing Russian gas pipelines pass through Ukraine. Perhaps they feel that the security of those lines would be better with a more compliant govt in Kiev.

Putin may have delusions of restoring the old Soviet empire by making the surrounding countries into puppets of Moscow. This has worked for him so far but the reaction of the west may have surprised him this time. I think he is still hoping the US will tire of supporting Ukraine and elect a more compliant president in 2024.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

Putin may have delusions of restoring the old Soviet empire by making the surrounding countries into puppets of Moscow. This has worked for him so far but the reaction of the west may have surprised him this time. I think he is still hoping the US will tire of supporting Ukraine and elect a more compliant president in 2024.

Putin may do this and may do that....

Enlighten us on the source of your insights?

[zilo]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

When I was in Moscow a Russian explained to me how they do voting over there. Russian voting has nothing to do with democracy.

An interaction with a taxi driver does not a definition of democracy make.

[PhilT2]

Originally Posted by zilo

An interaction with a taxi driver does not a definition of democracy make.

A taxi driver? You'll have to enlighten us as to the source of your insights.

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by T3rminator

To define a "win" (or loss) you would need to judge it on each side's objectives. Buildings and the immediate Ukraine economy doesn't seem to be an objective for any of the parties involved. A lot of it does get back to politics, and that goes beyond Russia vs Ukraine.

Safe to say, the ordinary people of Ukraine are the losers. And personally I think the ordinary people of Europe are also in strife in the long run - energy, food, security instability (look at all the weapons being thrown in there and which hands they are falling into). Middle east MK2.

All because of one country throwing the toys out of the cot...

The intertwining of economies clearly has its downsides.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

When I was in Moscow a Russian explained to me how they do voting over there. Russian voting has nothing to do with democracy.

in Ukraine no voting at all, all opposition party's are in jail.. to stop elections!

[PhilT2]

Originally Posted by burnz

in Ukraine no voting at all, all opposition party's are in jail.. to stop elections!

I don't have any illusions about Ukraine; it's a poor country and was part of the Soviet Union for a long time. Graft and corruption have been a way of life for a long time. Things will not change overnight

Zelensky was elected for a five year term, new elections are not due until Sept 2024. Martial law was declared when the Russians invaded. The pro Russian Communist party was banned and pro Russian media has been shut down. A couple of political figures are in custody, one because it is alleged $300mil disappeared from the bank he runs; another because of something to do with underage girls. Are these charges genuine..who knows? I can't find anything on the fate of the neo nazi party. The previous president Petro Poroshenko who lost to Zelensky is free and appeared at a recent political meeting.

The Ukraine parliament has 450 members, the Servants of the people party (Zelensky's party) won 240 of those seats at the last election. The rest are split up between about ten other parties. Around eighteen parties contested the last election.

The Europeans have made it clear to Ukraine that if they want to be part of the European Union then they have to clean up their act. And it appears they were trying to do that..up until they got invaded. If they fall back under the control of the Russians what do you think their chances are of continuing on that path?

https://freedomhouse.org/country/ukr...dom-world/2022

[b0son]

Originally Posted by burnz

in Ukraine no voting at all, all opposition party's are in jail.. to stop elections!

cool story bro. 2/10, no dragons.

[Fordman1]

I think it’s funny how the same “Wack jobs” in the “Pub” are the same “Wack jobs” here.

[CoupeKing]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

I think it’s funny how the same “Wack jobs” in the “Pub” are the same “Wack jobs” here.

Self projection 101.

There's a reason why mother nature created the back of the pack.

[FairmontGS]

Ukraine's gas grid operator to suspend Russian gas flows via Sokhranivka

European gas prices jump on GTSOU force majeure

To temporarily transfer gas flows to Sudzha entry point

One third of Ukraine's Russian gas enters at Sokhranivka

https://www.spglobal.com/commodityin...ia-sokhranivka

[Mulva]

Finnish President saying if Finland and Sweden join NATO, and Putin wants to know why, he should look in the mirror:



Former Swedish PM says it is gonna happen: https://twitter.com/carlbildt/status...5Es1_&ref_url=

[MITCHAY]

Apparently Finland has now officially announced its intention to join NATO. Talk about an own goal

[T3rminator]

Although, Sweden and Finland can decide to apply to join NATO, it doesn't mean they will automatically get accepted. ALL existing member states must approve for a new applicant to join.

And so it is strange that the UK would go out on their own and sign this pact with both Sweden and Finland at this time. Possible that there might be one or two existing members who are not comfortable with Sweden and Finland joining?


Boris Johnson commits UK to defence pact with Sweden and Finland
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-...eden/101059466

[Mulva]

I don't think it is that strange - as much as Boris literally says it is not a temporary stop gap measure, I suspect that is exactly what it is.

Like you said there are several steps to joining NATO, and it can take time. Although Putin has already bitten off more than he can chew, he has also made threats to Sweden and Finland should they take steps to join NATO - so now if he wants to act on those threats he does so knowing UK forces including air support will be part of the opposing forces.

But could just be for the reasons you state - that Finland and Sweden may not get to join NATO, in which case they still have that defence pact with UK to fall back on. And if they don't get to join NATO then I suspect there may be other nations that will sign a similar pact, giving Finland and Sweden a defensive pact with most NATO nations other than Hungary and maybe one or two others. So NATO-lite if you will, but still more than enough NATO for defensive purposes.

Warning about graphic footage in link below - CCTV of Russian soldiers shooting 2 unarmed civilians in the back after hassling the old men for smokes

https://twitter.com/i/status/1524525506288398336

[MITCHAY]

As far as I'm aware NATO does not admit countries who have existing conflicts such as Ukraine did with Russia but yet here we are.

The justification for this war was to prevent NATO expansion. Russia's actions have now have meant that potentially there will be two new NATO states as well as having galvenised the existing members.

A massive waste of life to acheive nothing.