VFacts April 2018,

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by hackney

Again(just for you) “Both” vehicle’s are in completely different category’s.They are not even competitors.Whether Mustang “outsells” ZB is irrelevant.

A sale is a sale, ZB Commodore doesn’t sell, niche Mustang does

So there .....

[Nikked]

Not really Hackney...it would be embarrassing for Holden.

[hackney]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

A sale is a sale, ZB Commodore doesn’t sell, niche Mustang does

So there .....

The “3rd” one that does not “get it”.Houston we have a problem”.

[hackney]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Not really Hackney...it would be embarrassing for Holden.

How the hell can it be “embarrassing” for Holden? You have lost me on this one.If(& if) they had Camaro in their lineup,yes,there would be for concern if it was not selling.You are also comparing a sedan to a sports car.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by hackney

The “3rd” one that does not “get it”.Houston we have a problem”.

YOU have a problem.

Niche sports car from Ford, outsells a mainstream historical competitors top selling product.

You put it together if you can, if you can’t then that’s your bad luck

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by hackney

The “3rd” one that does not “get it”.Houston we have a problem”.

Seem you are the one struggling...

Fact:

Holden chose to continue with the Commodore (ZB was goimg to be localised and built here at one stage too), they hoped that it would still sell in numbers similar to the Commodore would.

Their whole marketing direction was about the commodore.

Ford's mustang is an unexpected hit, and has not seen the same marketing push the ZB has.

Huge problem for Holden's image.

[hackney]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

YOU have a problem.

Niche sports car from Ford, outsells a mainstream historical competitors top selling product.

You put it together if you can, if you can’t then that’s your bad luck

Again it is irrelevant.They are NOT(I repeat,not) direct competitors.When & If Camaro comes in,then you can start to argue sales.Houston we have this ongoing problem!

[hackney]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Seem you are the one struggling...

Fact:

Holden chose to continue with the Commodore (ZB was goimg to be localised and built here at one stage too), they hoped that it would still sell in numbers similar to the Commodore would.

Their whole marketing direction was about the commodore.

Ford's mustang is an unexpected hit, and has not seen the same marketing push the ZB has.

Huge problem for Holden's image.

Struggling?No,just stating facts.Completely different market,sales or no sales.Whether Mustang sells a billion a year is irrelevant.(I am sure Holden would like more sales,that is a given,still cannot compare the two,whether you choose to or not.)

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by hackney

Again it is irrelevant.They are NOT(I repeat,not) direct competitors.When & If Camaro comes in,then you can start to argue sales.Houston we have this ongoing problem!

Ha,ha

[hackney]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

Ha,ha

“Houston”! Help,Help! Red alert!!!

[Nikked]

I wonder if Holden are trying a new marketing direction by inserting people into internet communities to tell people things are "going swell".

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Nikked

I wonder if Holden are trying a new marketing direction by inserting people into internet communities to tell people things are "going swell".

I agree.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by hackney

Struggling?No,just stating facts.Completely different market,sales or no sales.Whether Mustang sells a billion a year is irrelevant.(I am sure Holden would like more sales,that is a given,still cannot compare the two,whether you choose to or not.)

Geez aren’t you a bright spark The fact a niche sports car is outselling a mainstream icon is a valid point to make. It must be embarrassing for holden.

The fact they aren’t competitors has absolutely zero to do with the point that others have been making. Get a clue.

[jpd80]

Let's try this:

Ford cancels Falcon in V8, I-6T and Ecoboost and defers to:
- Mondeo sedan with 2.o EB and 2.0 diesel
- Mustang in 2.3 ecoboost and V8 for the performance buyers.

Holden cancels VFII Commodore and defers to
- Renamed mid sized Insignia as FWD/AWD Commodore and 2.0T, 2.0 D and V6
- plans to import and convert 2SS Camaro V8 for HP buyers.

The fact that one individual here cannot connect the dots does not make the
comparison illogical or irrelevant, it actually underscores eloquently both what
has gone wrong for Holden and what they need to do to rectify it..

HSV begins RHD conversions in the future, that is good and will do a bit to close the gap,
the fact that hackney recognises this point means that he's well on the way to understanding
my original position in posting two seemingly unrelated vehicle segments. It has to do with
both Ford's and Holden's original large car customers and how they can keep at least some of them.

So I will modify my previous equation thus,

Mustang + Mondeo > ZB Commodore + Camaro (0)

And trust me, using Mondeo sales is a big enough handicap for the Ford side..

[Nikked]

...even at a paltry 200 odd sales, the Mondeo is close to outselling the Commodore.

A few years ago you wouldn't even contemplate it happening...

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

The fact a niche sports car is outselling a mainstream icon is a valid point to make.

Umm..since when has a medium sized fwd/awd 4cyl/6cyl hatchback been a mainstream icon for Holden?
Holdens icon was a large rwd sedan and in later stages, V8 configuration to the tune of 60% of sales.
Tell me how the ZB is trying to cover that base in anything other than name.

Do you honestly believe Holden expected any of its loyal V8 customers to consider this as an alternative, if you do, and i dont believe that for a second, its just the angle you're taking to suit the narrative, you'd be extremely naive.
If a mid sized car was the way forward Ford wouldn't have bothered with Mustang and HSV wouldn't be importing Camaro's.

There is no doubt GM are playing catchup in the segment but if and when Camaro is built in RHD configuration Commodore will be recognised for what it is, a competitor to Mondeo and as it stands now, more than doubling its figures.

The rest is all childish banter to deflect from the only true fact and that is the fact that both former No1's are mid pack bit players in a fragmented market and are dominated by Toyota to the tune of 2 to 1.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Nikked

...even at a paltry 200 odd sales, the Mondeo is close to outselling the Commodore.

A few years ago you wouldn't even contemplate it happening...

Of course not but even the much fresher Mazda 6 struggles,
it's just the way with mid and large cars these days.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Of course not but even the much fresher Mazda 6 struggles,
it's just the way with mid and large cars these days.

Exactly.

If people take off their blinkers for long enough they'll realise that the ZB Commodore was not meant to sell in the same numbers as the outgoing model and even if it did it wouldn't be the saviour as the numbers of the outgoing model were a large part of its problem too.
The ZB fits in between Cruze and Commodore small enough to fill the void as a medium family car with the option of awd and a V6 for those after a little more.
Holden didnt just lose its large car player when they closed Elizabeth, they lost the medium car too, this is the different dilemma faced by the two companies locally.

Ford didnt need a replacement for Falcon because it imports Mondeo to suit those few customers, albeit without the awd/V6 option.

It is Commodore in name only and will only ever be a small time player in a shrinking part of the market.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Umm..since when has a medium sized fwd/awd 4cyl/6cyl hatchback been a mainstream icon for Holden?
.

Maybe the 1000’s on their way ( from overseas) and all the dealer demo rego’s prove that Holden DID think they could lunch off the name’s history and it was their mainstream product.

I’m tipping they thought it would continue to be their best selling vehicle, and the 1000’s they will need to ‘get rid of’ in a “resale value crushing fire sale” will underline that fact.

Major fail

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

Maybe the 1000’s on their way ( from overseas) and all the dealer demo rego’s prove that Holden DID think they could lunch off the name’s history and it was their mainstream product.

I’m tipping they thought it would continue to be their best selling vehicle, and the 1000’s they will need to ‘get rid of’ in a “resale value crushing fire sale” will underline that fact.

Major fail

Internal word was that the former "marketing ace" had set figures ridiculously high
and from what was explained, close to VFII's sales last year but those were quickly cut in half
but now, even that expected figure is more than double what we're seeing.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

Maybe the 1000’s on their way ( from overseas) and all the dealer demo rego’s prove that Holden DID think they could lunch off the name’s history and it was their mainstream product.

I’m tipping they thought it would continue to be their best selling vehicle, and the 1000’s they will need to ‘get rid of’ in a “resale value crushing fire sale” will underline that fact.

Major fail

You have to look at it for what it is, a new vehicle, untested in the country and polarising in comparison to what the core buying base are familiar with, it was always going to be a suck it and see situation.
At this stage they overestimated the uptake and until they get a better idea of where its at the numbers of cars on the boat wont match the sales on the charts.
Its not ideal but you have to start somewhere.

Once it settles down they'll probably move 500 per month which is probably where its at and on current figures, thats 2.5 times as many as Fords family hatchback sells.

As for the the 'resale crushing fire sale' those current owners will only lose if they are trading in whilst the numbers settle and i can tell you right now from my time in the industry, if you're trading a car which is only 4 months old you're burning cash anyway.

[jpd80]

I've berated Graeme Wickman in the past for passing on the TTV6 Mondeo/Fusion,
Maybe he got a heads up that TTV6 Fusion Sport wasn't long for this world.

I wonder if it would have struggled even more so than ZB given it much older architecture..
Is it now selling into a segment with very few buyers left to entice...

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Internal word was that the former "marketing ace" had set figures ridiculously high
and from what was explained, close to VFII's sales last year but those were quickly cut in half
but now, even that expected figure is more than double what we're seeing.

Right, so they moved what, 2k VF2's per month, thats 24k cars.
Half that and were at 12k ZB's
Half that again and were at 6k or 500 per month which is where i believe it will be once the dust settles.
Theres a reason they moved the margeting ace on, he clearly was playing with the full deck.
The only legitimate questions are, how many are really on their way and how long will it take to regulate.

You know whats really funny though, that boring white good the Camry is down 60% and is still selling in the same numbers as Mustang, ZB and Mondeo combined

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Theres a reason they moved the margeting ace on, he clearly wasn’t playing with the full deck.

I fixed it for you.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Fordman1

I fixed it for you.

Well yes, it would read better but my line of thinking was a play on words in that he was playing with a full deck, a full deck of cars.

Anyway, i think you're all missing the bigger picture here.
For 56 years the battle ground was Falcon V's Holden/Kingswood/Commodore and in the end Commodore was on top.

Well, this is 2018 and the battleground has shifted, its now Ranger V's Hilux and guess what, Hilux is on top.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Anyway, i think you're all missing the bigger picture here.
For 56 years the battle ground was Falcon V's Holden/Kingswood/Commodore and in the end Commodore was on top.

Here's the thing, which local division made a profit or at least stayed out of the red last year?
Ford was past all their write downs last year and in "clean air" of full imports, must have been profitable, yes?
Don't mean to be terrible here but the good sales of Commodore counts for zero when it dies in a sea of red ink.

Well, this is 2018 and the battleground has shifted, its now Ranger V's Hilux and guess what, Hilux is on top.

but only just. Ford can be pleased that Ranger does so well against such an established competitor.

You know whats really funny though, that boring white good the Camry is down 60% and is still selling in the same numbers as Mustang, ZB and Mondeo combined

60% hey?
Jeez, I wonder where they will "settle" because larger cars are really on the nose.
Don't forget, Mustang is three years old and in run out, how many forward orders
do you think Ford has for MY19....a lot of buyers with deposits holding off, yes?

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Well, this is 2018 and the battleground has shifted, its now Ranger V's Hilux and guess what, Hilux is on top.

.... and Colorado is rubbish (still).

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Umm..since when has a medium sized fwd/awd 4cyl/6cyl hatchback been a mainstream icon for Holden?
Holdens icon was a large rwd sedan and in later stages, V8 configuration to the tune of 60% of sales.
Tell me how the ZB is trying to cover that base in anything other than name.

Pretty much what everyone bar Holden have said.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

but only just. Ford can be pleased that Ranger does so well against such an established competitor.

Of course, and if you look close enough, every dark cloud has a silver lining too..

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Of course, and if you look close enough, every dark cloud has a silver lining too..

No it doesn't

I don't understand how being only just behind a top seller like Hilux can be a "dark cloud"....