Holden seeks $300million to build two extra production lines in Adelaide

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Well I am about to grad with an eng degree and I can tell you know there is stuff all in VIC. I am going to QLD or WA, actually pretty much anywhere depending on what program I hopefully get.

I did have an opportunity with a particular car company in Geelong, but it was in manufacturing, no thanks, ill dig in dirt for a while.

I also have a mate in Civil Eng in Melb and they are now actively searching for work contracts in QLD because VIC is quiet. Not good.

QLD is where its at...

[Polyal]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

QLD is where its at...

Certainly is, although id like to try Perth or even Darwin for a bit. I was up your way for a couple of months..reckon I could handle getting a place just outside Airlie Beach!

The growth plans that I saw from the company I was with are mind blowing. That particular mine was good until 2025 or something, with 6 more to be opened over the next 5-10 years.

I guess it all hinges on the $$ of the raw materials, but if its not China then you could argue another developing country might pick up the slack.

All I know is that I get paid more to work there then I do down here, alot more.

Anyway...how they think they can make good money out of these smaller cars that are identical to the ones made in cheaper countries I dont know.

[Gobes32]

So it is just VIC that is dead? I would hate to think the rest of Australia is like this, all the job losses lately is scary.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

So it is just VIC that is dead? I would hate to think the rest of Australia is like this, all the job losses lately is scary.

Well, Victoria is possibly the worst affected for now but thats mainly because they had the big manufacturing base to be lost as opposed to other states.

WA seem to be doing good until all their equipment falls through the hole to the other side of the globe.

It just seems this is the start of very very bad times ahead. Globalisation & Unprotected Free Trade Agreements that are 1 way have surely killed this country - opportunities seem very scarce.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Quoting??

I have a fair idea on how many people it affects, but at the same time the rest of us don't get handouts to keep our businesses going, we make them work! Holden especially seem to struggle with survival to the point where I think its time the government said tough luck you Americans, if you cannot make your operation viable here then go!

As I said spend the 300 million on making sure the employees get employed elsewhere or packages to retire. Holden use to employ approximately 6500 employees, but I think that number would be down to 5000 now. Thats $60,000 per person to either get them into another industry (mining for example) or pay them out to retire.

There are so many industries looking for workers its not funny, yet these poor people working for Holden and Ford keep holding on living in hope that one day they will get above industry award wages and a full 38 hour week 48 weeks of the year.

At least one of them if not both will not be here by 2016... Why throw good money after bad?

The other option is if the government lifts tariffs on imports.... But with all their silly little trade agreements (that Australia loses on most of the time) that will never happen.

All good and well using the 300 mill to re-train ex-employees of Holden, but what about the 10 dozen plus businesses that are set up around the plant that rely heavily on the plant employees business? Leave them go to the wall?

Yes, I am sure there are plenty of options out there to help save this plant, along with the Ford manufacturing plant. Just a case of the gov't playing ball in the right way.

As for lacking jobs....People generally chase the $$$$$, rather than taking what ever they can get..... I've heard about 2 jobs in the last months, where employers are screaming for workers.....Sure it's a dirty ol' tyre fitting job...sheet money...but an income none the less.

[Nikked]

Does holden deserve it? After annoucing they will support HRT and 888 for a few more years (i'd like to see the figures)...just seems a bit rich to ask for money, yet waste it...

[ivorya]

I think, before any govenment hands out money they should have independant acct's or acct's from the Reserve bank to properly go through(audit) all facts and figures.
i think it's crap if our money has gone to prop up Motor racing.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Does holden deserve it? After annoucing they will support HRT and 888 for a few more years (i'd like to see the figures)...just seems a bit rich to ask for money, yet waste it...

It will just get written off as a marketing expense, and probably won't be their biggest spend on that anyway.

[mick457]

one could ask the question that the amounts of tax payers $$$ going into holden how many commys do we own?

[ILLaViTaR]

Maybe they could boost staff wages yet again with another package?

Yet again more of my money uneccessarily going to mechanics....

[fte50]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Quoting??

Holden use to employ approximately 6500 employees, but I think that number would be down to 5000 now. Thats $60,000 per person to either get them into another industry (mining for example) or pay them out to retire.

.

More like 2500 (very generous figure) direct employees nation wide - incl, floor people, accounts, engineering etc.
When my dept was made redundant in 2009 we each received -
*5 weeks per ever yr service uncapped
*1 week further loyalty payment per every yr of service uncapped
*4 weeks severance pay
*30 days max amount of paid sickleave
*Full annual leave / long service leave payout
*Full shift loading on payments for shift workers
and last but not least........drum role
*Lifetime Gold Card discount giving 30% off new Commodore or Aus. made cars / parts, and 25% off imported badge cars & products.

I guess it dont take much to realise there is substantially more than $60k per head, given majority of workforce is atleast 10 yrs young on average.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by fte50

More like 2500 (very generous figure) direct employees nation wide - incl, floor people, accounts, engineering etc.

Do you have any facts to back this up??

In March 2009 there was over 6000 employees & I'm sure if Holden saked over 3500 staff members we would have heard about it!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

Do you have any facts to back this up??

In March 2009 there was over 6000 employees & I'm sure if Holden saked over 3500 staff members we would have heard about it!!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holden

Facts - yes i worked there for 21yrs and was part of the delegation that negotiated the redundancy scheme, so had a decent enuff insight.

However i take it you mean 'Proof' and GMs chairman never gave me a personal letter to plast on FF in yrs ahead.

Seriously, as manufacturing, engineering, services etc began to be outsourced, thousands of people were left jobless spanning over a period of 1.5decades, not to mention natural attrition. The aggresive push for modern outsourcing intensified around the 1994 period, hence the unions campaign fight "V8 till 98" as one example.
Component outsourced workers were never replaced. In upbeat times however Holden employed contract labour and also had a scheme going with Skilled. Although counted as heads, they were never Holdens people.

Just for your info, close to 700 employees were affected in 2009 alone - I clearly recall the headlines - Holden to axe 350 jobs !!!!!
They closed Plants 4, 6, 10annex, 11, 12 earlier on, then in 2009 Plants 10, 14, 15, 16.
Do you think there were only 50 blokes in a plant ???

[BAxtER]

Originally Posted by Polyal

Well I am about to grad with an eng degree and I can tell you know there is stuff all in VIC. I am going to QLD or WA, actually pretty much anywhere depending on what program I hopefully get.

I did have an opportunity with a particular car company in Geelong, but it was in manufacturing, no thanks, ill dig in dirt for a while.

I also have a mate in Civil Eng in Melb and they are now actively searching for work contracts in QLD because VIC is quiet. Not good.

Funny..i moved from Brisbane to Melbourne a year ago looking work in finance....now i'm contemplating moving back to either Brisbane or going to Perth for the same reasons

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by fte50

Facts - yes i worked there for 21yrs and was part of the delegation that negotiated the redundancy scheme, so had a decent enuff insight.

However i take it you mean 'Proof' and GMs chairman never gave me a personal letter to plast on FF in yrs ahead.

Seriously, as manufacturing, engineering, services etc began to be outsourced, thousands of people were left jobless spanning over a period of 1.5decades, not to mention natural attrition. The aggresive push for modern outsourcing intensified around the 1994 period, hence the unions campaign fight "V8 till 98" as one example.
Component outsourced workers were never replaced. In upbeat times however Holden employed contract labour and also had a scheme going with Skilled. Although counted as heads, they were never Holdens people.

Just for your info, close to 700 employees were affected in 2009 alone - I clearly recall the headlines - Holden to axe 350 jobs !!!!!
They closed Plants 4, 6, 10annex, 11, 12 earlier on, then in 2009 Plants 10, 14, 15, 16.
Do you think there were only 50 blokes in a plant ???

Problem is, most people are internet experts and have no idea how the plant actually functioned. No proof and they reckon it's all bulldust.

IMA, I'm with you all the way over your postings. I used to work for a tyre dealership not far from the plant and had the pleasure (if you can call it a pleasure) of fitting thousands of tyres for Holden,(and stripping them too) whilst Holden got their new tyre machine fitted and functioning properly back in 2003/4 ish.

I also used to get a heap of workers from that plant spending their hard earned within the tyre store. When the redundancies came about, the employees were fairly disheartened having to find alternative employments and business within that tyre store suffered as well.

[fte50]

Aint that 4 sure - lotta good blokes/blue collar workers that would find it very hard to secure new employment as Holden had "specialised" them within fields that are irrelevant to the outside world. Maintenance fellas not bad.

[atec77]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Let them go..... The government does not give the rest of us funding to continue on business, so why should these turkeys keep putting their hands out... Government would be better of spending 300 million in recruiting all the employees elsewhere.

This
put the chairman and board on a base salery equal to the workers plus bonus and penalties , just watch it suddenly make money

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by fte50

Just for your info, close to 700 employees were affected in 2009 alone - I clearly recall the headlines - Holden to axe 350 jobs !!!!!

How in do you go from 700 empolyees to effected to a headling of 350 jobs axe? That doesn't make sense to me, please explain!!

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

How in do you go from 700 empolyees to effected to a headling of 350 jobs axe? That doesn't make sense to me, please explain!!

Maybe because contractors might not be consider directly employed by Holden and yet combined with 350 "Holden" workers and same again contractors you get the real number effected.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Maybe because contractors might not be consider directly employed by Holden and yet combined with 350 "Holden" workers and same again contractors you get the real number effected.

That still doesnt help him get from 6500 employees in 2009 to 2500 in 2012!! Either contractors are counted in both numbers or none are.

All im asking for is a reference for this data.. I just dont believe people writing in forums, I like to get real facts... I'm not really saying 2500 is wrong.. I have no idea, I just want to know if it is right or not??

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

How in do you go from 700 empolyees to effected to a headling of 350 jobs axe? That doesn't make sense to me, please explain!!

Mmm, you want sense. I can give you a few reasons..

Its called distortion - having the media as your friend, misleading whatever u wanna call it.
Think about this....
Peter Hannenberger was Holden CEO during the heydey of the V-car in the 90's and early noughties.
With the introduction & massive launch of new models eg crewman adventura cross6 cross8 and last but not least Monaro he was a media spotlight grabber who loved the attention and seemed very suited to being the medias friend. He was also considered by many Australians a hero for Monaro's rebirth - 'what he says goes' mentality. The foundation was set.

*The media certainly most always favours Holden in any publication
*Even when Holdens offerings were clearly inferior to Fords product, eg - supension, engine, auto, power, nvh to name a few, it seemed Holden was portrayed as the better option. They were never down nor criticised. Think of the contrast when compared the Falcon or Ford Co.

Misleading....
*Commodore was for a long time winning the monthly sales tally. When their projected forecasts were down, they would offer employees cheap lease car rates on Commodore to entice more car registrations. When that still wasnt enough they would register 100s and have them sitting in the paddocks - yep dont make sense but this was a serious marketing tactic to be no1.
*When Commodores were running out of fuel coz of faulty fuel gauge/sender operation, Holden would not admit to a problem.
so you get the media bit now....
And finally when it outsourced half its operations and reduced its workforce to less than half over the 2 decades, it did so unchallenged by the media preaching innacurate numbers, reasons such as voluntary seperation(some were but the folks knew their fate), early retirement, natural attrition, modernising, cutting out old operations for new (but old had 200 workers new had 100 as an example), and the most famous was doing away with dirty manufacturing to benefit the environment etc - so why has GM invested so heavily in countries within the Asian rim that have no regard for environment ??? and your looking for sense.

Another point worth mentioning is that for every person let go by a major ie Ford, Holden, Toyota, an average of 5 people are affected in the supplier/component sector so 700 quickly becomes 3-3500.

[1TUFFUTE]

i think the point above is clearely that he personally saw over 700 jobs affected while holden announced 350. hes saying all those lines listed where closed and youd be stupid to assume that only 50 people work in a line....a fair enough amount of fact to back the claims. But who really cares...either way alot of people will be affected and we all hope holden does the right thing as best they can....and im not sure them getting bail out money to pay for that is the right way

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

That still doesnt help him get from 6500 employees in 2009 to 2500 in 2012!! Either contractors are counted in both numbers or none are.

All im asking for is a reference for this data.. I just dont believe people writing in forums, I like to get real facts... I'm not really saying 2500 is wrong.. I have no idea, I just want to know if it is right or not??

Consider the 2500 not be 'my fact' but the number that was floating around the operations at the time prior to plant closures and restructuring - and they were qouted by reliable sources eg HR, Management etc.
Remember though 9 plants were closed and 1 was gained being the HFV6 plant or plant18.
To assume over the course of the closures that the employees (direct/indirect) of 8 plants were all consumed by 1 or the notion that the headcount of 8 plants equalled less than 1 doesnt make sense.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

That still doesnt help him get from 6500 employees in 2009 to 2500 in 2012!! Either contractors are counted in both numbers or none are.

All im asking for is a reference for this data.. I just dont believe people writing in forums, I like to get real facts... I'm not really saying 2500 is wrong.. I have no idea, I just want to know if it is right or not??

Consider the 2500 not be 'my fact' but the number that was floating around the operations at the time prior to plant closures and restructuring - and they were qouted by reliable sources eg HR, Management etc.
Remember though 9 plants were closed and 1 was gained being the HFV6 plant or plant18.
To assume over the course of the closures that the employees (direct/indirect) of 8 plants were all consumed by 1 or the notion that the headcount of 8 plants equalled less than 1 doesnt make sense.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

How in do you go from 700 empolyees to effected to a headling of 350 jobs axe? That doesn't make sense to me, please explain!!

Same thing at Ford, in 2010 when we downbalanced Ford claimed no workers lost jobs, but failed to mention anyone on a contract wasn't given an extension and became unemployed.

I couldn't help feel pssed off that they claimed no job losses in the papers but try telling that to my mate who was now out of a job.

Anyone on a contract or is employed by an outside contractor is not considered an employee.

[FalconXV]

Rather than spend hundreds of millions on investment, why doesn't the government put, say 10-20 million on 'Australian Car Subsidy' for consumers?
Even if its not a huge amount, it will educate the public about what cars are made here and probably lead to more sales.
In fact, something as simple as that could generate enough momentum to carry us through to the end of the decade...

[fte50]

Originally Posted by FalconXV

Rather than spend hundreds of millions on investment, why doesn't the government put, say 10-20 million on 'Australian Car Subsidy' for consumers?
Even if its not a huge amount, it will educate the public about what cars are made here and probably lead to more sales.
In fact, something as simple as that could generate enough momentum to carry us through to the end of the decade...

I have often thought this to be the best solution, family buys a new locallly made car & get a 2.5k rebate etc = 120,000 new oz made car sales based on 300mil.
It will never happen though as it breaches the rules of Free Trade - its seen as a form of protectionism.

[pottery beige]

SA govco spends up on holdens...

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...-1226285610920

[prydey]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

SA govco spends up on holdens...

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...-1226285610920

i wonder if that actually helps them a lot though. there's a good chance that they didn't pay full retail and the cruze doesn't have a lot of fat in it to start with.

[dimka100]

Contractors are generally getting paid 50% - 100% more for the same job compared to full time employees in most industries to compensate for the risk that is involved with contracting ...

A contractor who complains their contract was not renewed is simply someone who does not want to face reality .... one be asking for the benefits of significantly higher pay with no risks associated with it ... if you can't take risks then simply don't do contracting!

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Same thing at Ford, in 2010 when we downbalanced Ford claimed no workers lost jobs, but failed to mention anyone on a contract wasn't given an extension and became unemployed.

I couldn't help feel pssed off that they claimed no job losses in the papers but try telling that to my mate who was now out of a job.

Anyone on a contract or is employed by an outside contractor is not considered an employee.