351 vs 360 vs 350

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by northey

Are there many Sports Sedans nowadays runnning Clevos?

Dont think there are,but its more a fact of no aftermarket block,either that or most guys just go with what theyre comfortable with building,really with the big budget classes there is nothing between the 3,a look at nascar shows this,even our touring cars,if they had a mopar contingent they would do as well as the others.
By the way the historics can now run a dart block,but doubt the clevo will dominate totally as they are rev limiting them and mandating pump fuel..

[56L]

Originally Posted by shakes

if you were to put 10k up front for each engine to see which made more power chev would win, cause there are to many milk bars in Australia you can get rods from. If you want your motor to last you cant go past a 4v clevo. Big stick, decent comp, enough fuel and good valve gear is all a clevo really needs. Everything else is big enough

mate ,look at the engine masters,none of these engines are allowed exotic parts ,just a few mods that can be replicated under 10 grand

I disagree when people say there was a shortage of cleveland performance parts ,there has always been parts available they just cost a bit more but not tripple,a good US made rod for a chevy is still going to be $1500 or more and here in aus you can can billet rods from argo for a cleveland for $2000 made to any specs with arp fasteners,when it comes to cylinder heads they didnt need after market jobs as the 4v,s were obviosly dominant.

America,s version of street machine>hot rodders mag made one bold statement in a 1978 issue "NO OTHER AMERICAN MADE V8 CAN PRODUCE MORE HORSEPOWER TO CUBIC INCH DISPLACEMENT THAN A 4V351 CLEVELAND PERIOD" now thats a huge statement to make to rest there reputation on,and i dont think no one argued

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by 56L

mate ,look at the engine masters,none of these engines are allowed exotic parts ,just a few mods that can be replicated under 10 grand

I disagree when people say there was a shortage of cleveland performance parts ,there has always been parts available they just cost a bit more but not tripple,a good US made rod for a chevy is still going to be $1500 or more and here in aus you can can billet rods from argo for a cleveland for $2000 made to any specs with arp fasteners,when it comes to cylinder heads they didnt need after market jobs as the 4v,s were obviosly dominant.

America,s version of street machine>hot rodders mag made one bold statement in a 1978 issue "NO OTHER AMERICAN MADE V8 CAN PRODUCE MORE HORSEPOWER TO CUBIC INCH DISPLACEMENT THAN A 4V351 CLEVELAND PERIOD" now thats a huge statement to make to rest there reputation on,and i dont think no one argued

There is a shortage of aftermarket Cleveland blocks, but Tod is working on that!

[56L]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

There is a shortage of aftermarket Cleveland blocks, but Tod is working on that!

can you imagine if they were avaiable many moons ago ?

i thought sj,s from W.A was working on one too ,maybe not anymore?

Then again there was the xe code block ,i know they have issues with core shift as well but that block would be suitable for most of us ,i seen 3 for sale two weeks ago all in seperate sales ,i purchased a 20 thou one ,hope its
ok lol

jon kaase used a xe code block on his winning cleveland entrant ,he purchased it off an american cleveland website member

[ozrunner]

Why do you think Chrysler pulled out of racing in the USA? The political wrangling and rule changes in Trans Am and NASCAR during the 70s, designed to stop Mopar products from winning, are legendary.

Dunno about that as the 351C was definitly eventually banned from NASCAR.

Also banned from NHRA Pro Stock drag racing which most would have thought was the province of the 350 Chev. Wrong !!!!

Ask Bob Glidden . He eventually retired and one of his comments on retirement was the 351C was the most penalised engine of all time.

Every time he won they added more weight.

"Until John Force surpassed him in 2001, Bob Glidden owned more NHRA national event victories than any other racer in the history of the sport. Bob grabbed 111 points in our contest, and almost certainly would have finished higher had he not retired in 1995. At times in the 1980s, Glidden had his fellow Pro Stock competitors covered by a tenth, even when SHUTTING OFF his Fairmont so he wouldn't adversely affect the weight breaks assigned to his dominant 351 Cleveland Ford."

Game Over

.

[burnz]

john force, now that bloke can talk with a mouth full of spanners and still
not take a breath of air.

[northey]

Bob Glidden was an unfair advantage.
I was one of his biggest fans but until Bill Jenkins and then his next driver (can't remember his name) stopped for a while Glidden never had it all his own way. He was also known as Mad Dog as he used to work 20 hrs per day for 7 days a week. Christmas Day he'd work in the shed, have dinner and then back to the shed.
One of his competitors said "Glidden could make a refrigerator competitive in Pro Stock". When he left Ford (was dumped) he went to Plymouth and won in them too. Straight away.
A great great drag racer.

Doesn't the engine masters competition allow alloy heads and strokers? I thought they were running 400 cubes and 3V CHI heads.

[nugget378]

Originally Posted by northey

Doesn't the engine masters competition allow alloy heads and strokers? I thought they were running 400 cubes and 3V CHI heads.

Yes they use 3V's,and they are totally within the rules,just because they are alloy dont mean they are something exotic.
The chevs dont compete as they have to use there "factory type" alloys as well,have a look at a 3v up close,its just an alloy 4V type head with a little different port location and size...
Have a read of this years EM rules here...

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng.../0701em_rules/



CYLINDER HEADS
Any domestic OEM passenger car or commercially available aftermarket OEM replacement, 2-valve per cylinder, cylinder heads that meet all other rules are acceptable. Raised runner heads as defined by a cylinder head requiring spacer plates or that is not compatible with the OE-width intake manifold for the engine type, are prohibited. Purpose-built racing heads such as; GM DRCE, Dart Big Chief and other similar racing heads are not allowed. Multiple spark plugs per cylinder and/or overhead camshafts are not allowed.

Contestants will be required to inform the rules committee of their cylinder head type for approval no later than July 15, 2007.

"Domestic OEM passenger car" and "aftermarket OEM replacement" cylinder heads must retain compatibility with unmodified OEM passenger car intake and exhaust manifolds. Slotting of intake manifold bolt-holes to attain alignment is not allowed. Aftermarket cylinder heads that maintain compatibility with OEM passenger car intake and exhaust manifolds are not allowed if the aftermarket manufacturer has altered the valve angles from the original OEM design. Valves must retain OEM valve angles (+ or -1 degree). Cylinder head decks may be milled as long as the milling does not affect the valve angle more than the 1-degree variance allowed by the rules.

Any valve seat size and/or valve size is acceptable. Any commercially available stainless steel valve is acceptable. Titanium valves and/or springs are not allowed.

Unlimited porting, polishing, welding, and/or filling the inside of the intake and/or exhaust ports is acceptable. Modifications to the exterior surfaces of the intake and/or exhaust ports, such as welding and/or adding additional material to increase port size or to alter the port design, is not allowed. Welding inside the combustion chamber to alter the chamber design and/or the placement of the valves or sparkplug is prohibited. The exterior surfaces of the ports, which include the intake manifold and/or exhaust manifold mating flanges, must remain "as-cast" by the manufacturer and cannot be altered in any way. Fastener holes on the intake manifold and/or exhaust manifold mating surfaces must remain as manufactured and cannot be altered in any way. Flange adapters that connect the exhaust ports to the header are not allowed. MOPAR W-2 small block intake and exhaust bolt patterns are allowed.
CHEVROLET Big Block 24-degree cylinder heads are allowed.
FORD MOTORSPORTS Big Block Cobrajet and Super Cobrajet heads are allowed

[gs1973]

Originally Posted by northey

Bob Glidden was an unfair advantage.
I was one of his biggest fans but until Bill Jenkins and then his next driver (can't remember his name) stopped for a while Glidden never had it all his own way. He was also known as Mad Dog as he used to work 20 hrs per day for 7 days a week. Christmas Day he'd work in the shed, have dinner and then back to the shed.
One of his competitors said "Glidden could make a refrigerator competitive in Pro Stock". When he left Ford (was dumped) he went to Plymouth and won in them too. Straight away.
A great great drag racer.

Doesn't the engine masters competition allow alloy heads and strokers? I thought they were running 400 cubes and 3V CHI heads.

Yeah but on the same token don't you think G.M is advantaged? Considering that they have more than twice the followers and racers mean's there development cost's are halved and the chances of one of them getting one cracking are higher.. G.M have nothing but the aftermarket to thank for there ability to run with a top flight Clevo's.Because if you compare there factory head options they're Shite.

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by gs1973

Yeah but on the same token don't you think G.M is advantaged? Considering that they have more than twice the followers and racers mean's there development cost's are halved and the chances of one of them getting one cracking are higher.. G.M have nothing but the aftermarket to thank for there ability to run with a top flight Clevo's.Because if you compare there factory head options they're Shite.

The aftermarket has gone with the SBC as GM stuck the motor in just about everything for years and years. The 351C on the otherhand was never produced in the same sort of numbers.

[ozrunner]

Originally Posted by gs1973

....G.M have nothing but the aftermarket to thank for there ability to run with a top flight Clevo's.Because if you compare there factory head options they're Shite.

Yep and in our own 5.0 supercar world even with these best aftermarket chev heads, Holden sought approval to be allowed to swap from the siamese Chev head to a Ford copy for the new HMS (Aurora) engine as they considered Ford guys had an unfair advantage. The Ford 5.0 head is still basically a trusty ol clevo factory style head.

.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by ozrunner

Yep and in our own 5.0 supercar world even with these best aftermarket chev heads, Holden sought approval to be allowed to swap from the siamese Chev head to a Ford copy for the new HMS (Aurora) engine as they considered Ford guys had an unfair advantage. The Ford 5.0 head is still basically a trusty ol clevo factory style head.

.

They still complain they do, if you talk to the engine guys there's a general consensus that the Ford engine still has a few extra ponnies over the Chev, albiet minor.

[gs1973]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

They still complain they do, if you talk to the engine guys there's a general consensus that the Ford engine still has a few extra ponnies over the Chev, albiet minor.

As I've alway's said "BOY'S THAT CAN'T CUT IT AS MEN"!

[northey]

While large numbers can help it isn't the "be all and end all." It didn't make a Chev good.

Volkswagen produced how many million beetles and from start to finish they were crap.

The chev did well and had a lot of users because it's a very well designed engine. It only had 265 cubes to start with and ended up at 400. Yeah, the heads are crap now but we viewed them as not too bad back when. They made very good power in the hands of good porters.
Like it or not it's one of the best and longest lasting engine designs.

I don't defend the Chev engine because I have to; it already has the numbers on the board. Crappy heads? Yep. But the engines still made a lot of power. For the most part racers used the best engines available because they could win with them.

[gs1973]

Originally Posted by northey

While large numbers can help it isn't the "be all and end all." It didn't make a Chev good.

Volkswagen produced how many million beetles and from start to finish they were crap.

The chev did well and had a lot of users because it's a very well designed engine. It only had 265 cubes to start with and ended up at 400. Yeah, the heads are crap now but we viewed them as not too bad back when. They made very good power in the hands of good porters.
Like it or not it's one of the best and longest lasting engine designs.

I don't defend the Chev engine because I have to; it already has the numbers on the board. Crappy heads? Yep. But the engines still made a lot of power. For the most part racers used the best engines available because they could win with them.

Well I'm not saying the chev small block is crap.. It is a great engine. It has just annoyed me over the years that all the meat heads have carried on how superior it is to every other V8 production engine. As we all know this is not correct.

[blackjack]

Mopar hands down

[xbgs351]

Originally Posted by northey

While large numbers can help it isn't the "be all and end all." It didn't make a Chev good.

Volkswagen produced how many million beetles and from start to finish they were crap.

The chev did well and had a lot of users because it's a very well designed engine. It only had 265 cubes to start with and ended up at 400. Yeah, the heads are crap now but we viewed them as not too bad back when. They made very good power in the hands of good porters.
Like it or not it's one of the best and longest lasting engine designs.

I don't defend the Chev engine because I have to; it already has the numbers on the board. Crappy heads? Yep. But the engines still made a lot of power. For the most part racers used the best engines available because they could win with them.

There is a pretty serious aftermarket industry for VW Beetle engines.

[northey]

Originally Posted by xbgs351

There is a pretty serious aftermarket industry for VW Beetle engines.

They needed something serious.

[walker]

go the 351 Clevo!!!!!!!!! 5.8lts of fun

[OzJavelin]

Stock .. they'd all whip a Holden 308 and that's all that really matters!

[mcnews]

If you want a real cheap way of getting performance you can also get a 318 block, grind down the journals of a 360 crank and put it in the 318 block to make a 350, overbore it a bit and it gives you a 355. I did this on my first car and it was bulletproof through unimaginable levels of abuse.

[rapom1]

To try and be a bit scientific about the issue, the 340/360 Mopar has inherent advantages that tend to result in, all else being equal, the most power.

It's true the 360 was not generally realeased as a factroy performance engine, and all but a few thousand were strangled from the facotry with tiny 2bbl carbs and tiny cams. But a 360 is basically a stroked, underbored and detuned 340 , even the head castings were the same until the 340 was dropped in 1974. A 360 built with the same goodies as a 340 will be just as durable and reliable and make 20-25 extra more horsepower as a bonus.

Its built in advantages include,

10 more cubes for a free 10-15 free HP before you even start.
18 degree valve angle with valves that open to the centre of the bore for less valve shrouding and better flow.
The longest conrods at 6.123 inches, makes the trick aftermarket 6 inch rods for the others look crook.
Shaft mounted rockers for less rocker arm flex.
The biggest tappet diameter, meaning you can chose a cam that "ramps up" faster for more area under the curve and more power.
The highest small block deck height allowing th longer rods.
The largest cam to crank centre distace and biggest crank case making stroking a cinch, without the usual clearancing problems.
All 318/340/360 blocks are from high nickel cast iron, not the cheap plain grey stuff in most of the others. Higher nickel content = greater block strength = a more stable bore for better ring seal.

It has its disadvantages as well such as

Crappy 59 deg tappet angle resulting in the pushrods being at a non ideal angle to the tappets. can result in failures in sustained high (6500 plus) rpm operation.
Only 4 head bolts per cylinder (rather than 5 on the Chev) making comp ratios greater 11:1 marginal.
3/8 oil pickup allows only adequate oil flow std.
Long and cumbersome route for oil to the valve train, through the cam journals, block and head passages which often results in just adequate valve train oiling.

All in all though, the pros seem to outweigh the cons, and most of the cons can be easily managed with a few simple "tricks".

The 360 gets my considered vote, hands down.

[burnz]

i personly think the poll is flawed
350 chev
360 chrysler
351 ford
............
350 bowtie
360 mopar
360 fontana (ford)

[knighty01]

wouldn't that leave the chev motor at somewhat of a disadvantage??

the only reason i picked these three mills was sheer accesability, in a perfect world, we'd all be playing with lexus v8's :

[RIPGMH]

Lexus V8's?? you mean those boat anchors they throw into Landcruisers?? I know they're only 4ltrs but most stock I6's would hose them.

[knighty01]

fish are biting well today

but seriously, who else runs a six bolt main??

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by knighty01

wouldn't that leave the chev motor at somewhat of a disadvantage??

the only reason i picked these three mills was sheer accesability, in a perfect world, we'd all be playing with lexus v8's :

No we all wouldnt, on general principle
lol


Yes i know Lexus make good engines.
But the Toyota thing.

[George1861]

Originally Posted by mcnews

If you want a real cheap way of getting performance you can also get a 318 block, grind down the journals of a 360 crank and put it in the 318 block to make a 350, overbore it a bit and it gives you a 355. I did this on my first car and it was bulletproof through unimaginable levels of abuse.

And the 360 crank in a 340 is about 400 CID.

[nugget378]

Back on topic.
Seems the clevland is streets ahead.
Looking at the tally's from all the poll's from a moment ago...

350chev-a total of 19=23.07%
351 cleveland- a total of 86=47.2%
360-a total of 54=29.6%

Now Its quite difficult to find if some have posted twice,but going off the numbers its more likely that those from other forums also posted here than AFF users posted on those other sites (I for one didnt or wouldnt)
So if we allowed for that the cleveland would be even more dominant,seems that not only on the racetrack but on the interweb poll the cleveland is far superior..

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by nugget378

Back on topic.
Seems the clevland is streets ahead.
Looking at the tally's from all the poll's from a moment ago...

350chev-a total of 19=23.07%
351 cleveland- a total of 86=47.2%
360-a total of 54=29.6%

Now Its quite difficult to find if some have posted twice,but going off the numbers its more likely that those from other forums also posted here than AFF users posted on those other sites (I for one didnt or wouldnt)
So if we allowed for that the cleveland would be even more dominant,seems that not only on the racetrack but on the interweb poll the cleveland is far superior..

Yep, im still trying to work out how the 360 got a vote, let alone 54!!! Got to love one eyed badge loyalty!