Advanced Driving "P" Plate

[RIPGMH]

Well than lets ban smoking, drinking and any other potentially harmful activity.
Tobacco: 19,019 deaths
Alcohol: 2,831 deaths
Motor Vehicle Accidents: 1,731

The reason nobody can provide figures on modified/high performance motor vehicle deaths amongst young people is because its not a startling statisic that the media/governement can use to wow people. The crashes I see on TV are of Mazda 121s and Mitsubishi Sigmas not GTs or Evos.

[I FluXx I]

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

The metro at 350 hours, perhaps. The 737 with 450 hours.............????? Do you mean 4500 hours????

No. He is paying some airline to train with them. Apprently they are desperate for pilots.

Originally Posted by flappist

You are right, you do not know about the whole aviation thing at all.

Bullcrap, your brother is lying to you or he is in a third world country like Nigeria and his "licence" is invalid in the rest of the word.

ummmm ok....a bit rude of you. If you call Perth Airport Nigeria?? :
He is training in the metro with Skippers Aviation. They where looking for pilots aswell and where offering people to pay $38 000 or there abouts and they would train you in a metro and give you a job as a first officer.

I will get more info from my brother. Thanks

[flappist]

Originally Posted by I FluXx I

No. He is paying some airline to train with them. Apprently they are desperate for pilots.



ummmm ok....a bit rude of you. If you call Perth Airport Nigeria?? :
He is training in the metro with Skippers Aviation. They where looking for pilots aswell and where offering people to pay $38 000 or there abouts and they would train you in a metro and give you a job as a first officer.

I will get more info from my brother. Thanks

Ask him if he has 350 total, 350 command or 350 twin?

Skippers operate metro 23s which are over 5700kg and require an ATPL to command. An ATPL require over 1000 hrs as well as a lot of other stuff.
Technically a CPL can be FO but not on RPT but insurance will spit.
It has been a while so I will check details tomorrow. I know a couple of pilots there.

[I FluXx I]

Originally Posted by flappist

Ask him if he has 350 total, 350 command or 350 twin?

will do. I think he is coming down tomorrow. Il get him to bring his log book

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

Well than lets ban smoking, drinking and any other potentially harmful activity.
Tobacco: 19,019 deaths
Alcohol: 2,831 deaths
Motor Vehicle Accidents: 1,731

The reason nobody can provide figures on modified/high performance motor vehicle deaths amongst young people is because its not a startling statisic that the media/governement can use to wow people. The crashes I see on TV are of Mazda 121s and Mitsubishi Sigmas not GTs or Evos.

Amen brother, it had to be said. Otherwise they would of rubbed it in our faces already as justification!

Yes it has been proven that you are more likely to die between 17-25 but statistics HAVE NOT been made available to prove you are more likely to die in a performance car.

What is it people don't understand about that? Yes I'm young but far from stupid.

[brendo83]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Amen brother, it had to be said. Otherwise they would of rubbed it in our faces already as justification!

Yes it has been proven that you are more likely to die between 17-25 but statistics HAVE NOT been made available to prove you are more likely to die in a performance car.

What is it people don't understand about that? Yes I'm young but far from stupid.

Your right there are no statistics to prove that, but statistics are often quite biased to prove a point, so I don't trust them anyway. and you have to remember that lack of evidence supporting a theory in no way disproves that theory, you need evidence to the contrary to say its not true. If you have neither then you really are relying on common sense.
Are you telling me that you think an inexperienced driver is equally as safe in a high powered car as a low powered one??
Having driven a high powered car in the wet, I know how easily the rear can break traction, something that a standard car would not do.

[I FluXx I]

Originally Posted by flappist

Ask him if he has 350 total, 350 command or 350 twin?

Skippers operate metro 23s which are over 5700kg and require an ATPL to command. An ATPL require over 1000 hrs as well as a lot of other stuff.
Technically a CPL can be FO but not on RPT but insurance will spit.
It has been a while so I will check details tomorrow. I know a couple of pilots there.

Are you in the industry?

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Much the same as I'm waiting for the stats that show more people die in performance cars rather than any other car.

Regardless it has still doubled and that is still twice as many young lives lost.

Well Said, as many know im 18, i drive a BA XR8, my parents didn't pay for it or evan put in for it....

Now i understand i drive a High Performance vehical, and i certainly havn't had my licence long enough to brag about not having any accidents or evan close calls really.

I do belive a system like you have mentioned could work, one question i have for you Flappist (not having a go, just a question) is whether im driving my BA XR8 or the Ford Courier we have for work, my road "Skills" developed through experience like avoiding roo's, reading traffic, Etc, is the same, so why is it that i should be barred for my car??? (If i had a victorian licence)

Saying that people my age cannot help themselves is a bit of a generalisation, i understand it as alot of my friends ask me how i manage to stay so controlled (Not speed everywhere), but i hate rules being made for a minority.

To be honest im over this debate, the only two people i know from my old school that have lost their licence have been driving non performance cars TX3 N/A FWD & XF Falcon S Pack, and that stats show that Power/Weight doesn't work when double the amount of young people have died in NSW since these stupid laws have been brought in.

Im sure if the law had have been removed, and it caused a 50% increase in deaths, it would have been brought back in...

[Outbackjack]

[QUOTE=flappist]Well apart from the insurance issue, only Metro 2s are under 5700kg MTOW so an ATPL is required for all the rest and I am fairly sure there are no Metro 2s left in Oz. I will check tomorrow, the guy who runs the ground school for that type is a mate (he taught me to fly originally).
Even if it is a metro 2 and insurance is not an issue how do you get a CPL, initial twin, MECIR, pressurisation, MCE and BGT in 350 hrs? Maybe if you won lotto?
QUOTE]

Like I said... perhaps. Most of my flying experiencs in high performancs a/c was in a turbo piper arrow. To get that experience I had to buy the bloody thing. Some might say that this plane did not really represent a "high" per formance a/c." But they are very under rated with 1970's thecnology.... pretty fast , . But I did Coffs to AKL on 4 ocassions (return). I am a sucker for blonde hair and blue eyes.

It is a strong attitude change when you suddenly have loved ones getting their license and head on out into the wide world by themselves. I think that the power restrictions may prove a step in the rite direction.

The next positive step will be sych tests. Did you ever feel when you were a student pilot that when you started doing your first circuits that you were being watched closely. And that that if you didn't perform you were not going to go much further with your flying career? That is where most student fly boys throw in the towel......... Cars should be the same. Learn your limits or catch the bus.

Cheers all.

[all4ford]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Statistically the 18-25 age bracket is over twice as likely to be involved in an accident than any other driving group, what more evidance would you like?

But those statistics are directly related to experience behind the wheel, not the age of the driver. A person may have been driving from 17 - 25, therefore after they turn 25 they have had 8 years driving experience and "should" have learnt a lot about driving. As such the statistics show the chance of accidents drops off. However, a 25 year old with zero driving experience can still get behind the wheel of whatever they like, because statistics state they are now safe as they are over 25. They should just have no cut offs and state a minimum amount of years with a licence. That way whether you are 17 or 50, if you still have no experience, you SHOULD NOT be given more rights because you are aged 50.

[brendo83]

Originally Posted by all4ford

But those statistics are directly related to experience behind the wheel, not the age of the driver. A person may have been driving from 17 - 25, therefore after they turn 25 they have had 8 years driving experience and "should" have learnt a lot about driving. As such the statistics show the chance of accidents drops off. However, a 25 year old with zero driving experience can still get behind the wheel of whatever they like, because statistics state they are now safe as they are over 25. They should just have no cut offs and state a minimum amount of years with a licence. That way whether you are 17 or 50, if you still have no experience, you SHOULD NOT be given more rights because you are aged 50.

While thats a great idea in theory, how do you implement a restriction scheme based on experience? you might say years with a license as opposed to age, which is already in place, as you go onto a probationary license initially regardless of age do you not? (I think its a shorter time on P's).
But that doesn't really prove experience much more than age does, as they could get their license and never drive like some people I know.
And as important as experience is, there are some people out there who do not learn, there are plenty of bad drivers out there with years of experience.

There is no such thing as a system that will cater for everyone, I think the one we have is adequete and untill somebody shows me a much better one, I'm happy to stick with ii.

[Ghiadude]

Im 28 and i can honestly say i thought i was a good driver when i was 16. truth is you dont really know what a good driver is at that age so how would you know if you were one or not? fact is that i learnt to be a better driver by taking big risks and learning from my mistakes. I was one of the lucky ones that survived - some of my mates were not so fortunate. Performace cars are like anything dangerous - handled properly they arnt so bad. I dont know what the answer is, perhaps more time as an L plater would be better?
Log books of driver time in different conditions sounds good - zero tolerence for driving offences might also work. banning people from performance cars is taking an overly simplistic view and only stops people from gaining the experience they need. Handling a powerful car isnt taught in a one day, three days or even one month course it takes time - but without exposure what hope do they have?? Like i said... extend the L plate period to three years - let them drive supercharged vipers if they so desire theyll hopefully have a level headed experienced adult next to them guiding them through what really is a minefield.

end rant

PS Flappist - I'm not disagreeing with your aviation example in fact my idea is very much the same - let them find their feet in an environment with supervision

[GTpilot]

Originally Posted by brendo83

While thats a great idea in theory, how do you implement a restriction scheme based on experience? you might say years with a license as opposed to age, which is already in place, as you go onto a probationary license initially regardless of age do you not? (I think its a shorter time on P's).
But that doesn't really prove experience much more than age does, as they could get their license and never drive like some people I know.
And as important as experience is, there are some people out there who do not learn, there are plenty of bad drivers out there with years of experience.

There is no such thing as a system that will cater for everyone, I think the one we have is adequete and untill somebody shows me a much better one, I'm happy to stick with ii.

Hence my suggestion where there are levels to progress to, you need to prove your ability and experience by being tested. If you have a license for two years adn do not drive, that WILL show in the test. Any decent driving instructor can tell within minutes how good a driver and how experienced you are. Hell seating position is the first dead give away.

As for the cost of sub 1.6 vechiles rising, Oil companies are thaking care of that anyway.

[QUOTE]Well than lets ban smoking, drinking and any other potentially harmful activity.
Tobacco: 19,019 deaths
Alcohol: 2,831 deaths
Motor Vehicle Accidents: 1,731[QUOTE]

RIPGMH, sorry man, but that is a REALLY dumb comment. Think before you post something like that, Almost all of those smoking and Alcohol related deaths do not involve putting other peoples lives at risk, such as hurtling down the road as break neck speed.

What a lot of you young people fail to realise is that by being allowed to drive a vehicle, you are really being given control of a potentially leathal weapon. Like like when handling a loaded gun then pointing it at other people and pulling the trigger. What is stopping you when driving down the street mounting a busy footpath and skittleing 100's of pedestrians or ramming another car at high speed. It is exactly the same thing, common sense. Yeah there are many that have it, BUT there are some that don't. the most unfortunate thing is EVERYONE has to suffer for those stupid few.

[uranium_death]

There is no easy answer to this.

However, I don't believe that the current power-weight ratios make much difference.
If people want to hoon in a 6, they will.

However, if people are caught hooning, the penalties should be far harsher to get the message across that hooning in completely unacceptable and should you be caught, find an instant liking for public transport, because that's all you shall be using.

Need be, the government should also provide a list of acceptable V8 cars such as the larger 8s (Falcon, Commodore) and blackmark the smaller Ricer Mobiles such as Lancers as WRXs.

There is no simple answer and will require a lot of looking into.

No, I'd love Commode and Falcon 8s to be allowed to be driven. But I also wouldn't mind a supplement to their license for those who want an 8 on their Ps. On the three year P system (soon to be four), after 1-2 years, the driver can get their 8. On the new Victorian system (coming in July this year) which is a 1 year red P (restricted) and 3 year green P, I reckon that after 1 year on the greenies, people should be able to have 8s.

Just a few ideas.

Flames ahoy!

[Ghiadude]

no flames here... i hear what your saying

[RIPGMH]

If Q-ride works for motocycle licences than why wouldn't a simliar system be workable for cars??

[poolkeeper]

Not all p platers think the same thing on the road.

Im going from a 6 cylinder ute to a high performance car 900hp plus in two years, Im I going to have enough experience? Or Im I going to crash and burn? Remember Ill have my full license by then.

[RIPGMH]

Is this hypotetical or you are going to a 900hp car in 2 years?

[poolkeeper]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

Is this hypotetical or you are going to a 900hp car in 2 years?

Saving for 2 yearz straight, I have good income, and Ill probablly get a small loan. Just so I dont stop, save, spend etc.
So in two year it will be ready to go. :eclipsee_

[I FluXx I]

Originally Posted by flappist

Ask him if he has 350 total, 350 command or 350 twin?

Skippers operate metro 23s which are over 5700kg and require an ATPL to command. An ATPL require over 1000 hrs as well as a lot of other stuff.
Technically a CPL can be FO but not on RPT but insurance will spit.
It has been a while so I will check details tomorrow. I know a couple of pilots there.

305 command. He said they wouldnt usually employ someone with his amount of experience but it is legal and there desperate for pilots at the moment.

He did most of his training at the royal aero club. Then he did his twin engine endorsment and the rest of his training at a place called the aeroplane company based at Jandakot airport.

[ThoR_]

ik sick of P platers hooning around in there 5litre commodores and putting them around polls there such loosers

[boss-290]

Originally Posted by Sykotik

didn't you read my message about power-weight ratios? They exist. 3500cc per tonne.

Is that in Victoria?

I've never heard this, only except it trying to be introduced.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by I FluXx I

305 command. He said they wouldnt usually employ someone with his amount of experience but it is legal and there desperate for pilots at the moment.

He did most of his training at the royal aero club. Then he did his twin engine endorsment and the rest of his training at a place called the aeroplane company based at Jandakot airport.

Big difference to 350 total.

I checked what Skippers are up to. I believe that are running the M23 single crew and have the second pilot (FO) there to cover the "More than 15 pax" requirement.

Good luck to him, I hope he does well.

[RIPGMH]

Originally Posted by D1XR2C

Saving for 2 yearz straight, I have good income, and Ill probablly get a small loan. Just so I dont stop, save, spend etc.
So in two year it will be ready to go. :eclipsee_

My three year old boy tells me he'll run 10's before I do, that doesn't mean its going to happen, but best of luck to you.

[Scruba]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

What does everyone reckon? As opposed to simply banning "P" platers from owning a performance/modified car, why not require the completion of an advance driver training course to allow the use of a performance vehicle. A secondary test in addition to the regular driving assessment.

Everyone should be subjected to an advanced defensive driving course as part of acquiring a licence.

Also a course every 5 years or a test for drivers renewing.

Also mandatory (free from the Dept of transport to all drivers) a copy of the Qld (or other state/territory) driving rules book. So many ppl don't know what the rules are - causing accidents and so many near misses.

[poolkeeper]

Originally Posted by RIPGMH

My three year old boy tells me he'll run 10's before I do, that doesn't mean its going to happen, but best of luck to you.

lol, well best of luck to your son 2.
I do have a plan though for a killa combo...
But back on topic p platers rule :thebirds:

[RIPGMH]

I would say "P" platers make up a fair whack of the second hand performance market so these new laws could potentially make a small impact on resale values of certain cars

[4Vman]

All this hype about driver training is all good and well but it won't change much IMO, driver training won't give you experience or maturity, that can only come with age and Km's of driving over a number of years..

Firstly there's tonnes of driver training and advanced driver training readily avaliable to everyone at any time they want.
My feelings are people should take responsibility for their own ability and attend one of these courses on their own time at their own expense.

Secondly all the training in the world is absolutely pointless if said "trained" driver continues to drive irresponsibly or immaturely.
I did a poll on here recently about both these issues and from memory over 65% of respondants believed driver attitude and poor behaviour was more of an issue than driver training for young drivers..

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by brendo83

Your right there are no statistics to prove that, but statistics are often quite biased to prove a point, so I don't trust them anyway. and you have to remember that lack of evidence supporting a theory in no way disproves that theory, you need evidence to the contrary to say its not true. If you have neither then you really are relying on common sense.

Yes but they talk it up like they have the proof and yet haven't published any.

Basically I think "Put up or shut up". In an ideal world they would have to prove that you are more likely to die in a performance cars before introducing legislation.

Much the same as you have to prove that a person killed another before finding them guilty of a crime.

If I am proven wrong I will eat my words but I hardly think there's any likelyhood of that happening otherwise the proof would of been rammed down my throat allready

Either way I can still drive my car until they decide to ban them for all drivers

[4Vman]

Take all emotion out of it and think about this sensibly... how can anyone seriously suggest an immature driver with limited driving experience and driving in a reckless manner not be more of a risk to himself and other road users in a high performance vehicle than in a std performance vehicle.

In the same way its allot harder to kill someone with an air rifle than with a M16....

I'll turn it around the other way:
Can anyone here produce irrefutable evidence that high performance vehicles catigorically DO NOT pose an evevated risk to younger inexperienced drivers?