new hsv for 2008

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by sleekism

I go by a rule:

0-150kw :Front Wheel Drive Makes sense

150-350kw :RWD makes sense

350kw+ AWD makes sense

You may call me an idiot but once you start getting over 350kw an AWD proves faster while sub 300kw AWD cars will prove slower than their RWD counterparts.

Unless you want 50 inch wide rubber on your 400kw GTHO

Power output is only one factor in making AWD viable, weight and vehicle size are equally important..
To engineer a very Large heavy 4 door sedan to be reliable and have excellent performance would be far more expensive than persevering with RWD... At the end of the day an AWD vehicle will have a weight dissadvantage over an equivilant platform RWD and need an extra 10-15% more power just to provide comparable straight line performance.
HSV's Coupe 4 is a perfect illustration of this, its heavier than the RWD coupe, allot more expensive and slower too despite having the same power output...

[T3ts50]

How much do you expect a AWD Falcon with 400kw Shelby Mustang GT500KR motor supposed to weigh? It would be tubbier than a Bentley.

[Rev28K]

Yet Nissans factory hot up arm Autech did family GTR’s.

The 4 door R33 with GTR driveline and the 4 door wagon R34 Stagea RS260

They were good and sold out (limited numbers) but I wouldn’t hold my breath for any replacements.

[Disciple]

A Falcon with AWD and a big supercharged engine will be nudging 2.3 tonne. Weight loss is the key, not more power.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by sleekism

I go by a rule:

0-150kw :Front Wheel Drive Makes sense

150-350kw :RWD makes sense

350kw+ AWD makes sense

You may call me an idiot but once you start getting over 350kw an AWD proves faster while sub 300kw AWD cars will prove slower than their RWD counterparts.

Unless you want 50 inch wide rubber on your 400kw GTHO

If Ford couldn't fit a V8 and AWD in the Territory what chance do they have of doing it in an Orion Falcon with the Territorys front suspension and steering in it. Add the extra weight of the supercharger plus the front diff and transfer case at the front of the car and the front/rear weight bias blows out by a mile and makes it even more of a nose heavy understeerer.

[Falc'man]

Yes the weight will blow out for sure. The GTR weighs in at 1740kg... so you could imagine what a larger bodied Falcon with bigger motor would do... easily over 2t. Not worth the effort just from an technical point of view. From an economic point of view you'd lose your job for even thinking about it.

If we want something real fast - thats purpose built from the ground up to go fast - we need to consider what Ford has globally. For now, all I can think of is the Ford GT (is that still in production?). The Mustang has a better chance of mixing it with the likes of the GTR than a Falcon does - simply cause its way lighter. But that still has a live rear axle.


In the meantime, I doubt HSV will play their trump card so early. FPV is "behind" as it in the V8 stakes so no point for them till the Boss (Hurricane) gets here...

[T3ts50]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

In the meantime, I doubt HSV will play their trump card so early. FPV is "behind" as it in the V8 stakes so no point for them till the Boss (Hurricane) gets here...

The thing about HSV is that they dont seem to think that they are in competition with FPV (we all know its a load of crap) and they are after the bigger fish (Merc, BMW & Audi).

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Yes the weight will blow out for sure. The GTR weighs in at 1740kg... so you could imagine what a larger bodied Falcon with bigger motor would do... easily over 2t. Not worth the effort just from an technical point of view. From an economic point of view you'd lose your job for even thinking about it.

If we want something real fast - thats purpose built from the ground up to go fast - we need to consider what Ford has globally. For now, all I can think of is the Ford GT (is that still in production?). The Mustang has a better chance of mixing it with the likes of the GTR than a Falcon does - simply cause its way lighter. But that still has a live rear axle.


In the meantime, I doubt HSV will play their trump card so early. FPV is "behind" as it in the V8 stakes so no point for them till the Boss (Hurricane) gets here...

I'm pretty sure some of the higher end Mustang models have IRS.

You can pretty much guarantee that HSV is not waiting around for FPV. When the VT2 came out they weren't waiting around for Tickford they slapped in the GEN3 and the 300kw C4B while Tickford was left with the old Windsor churning out 220kw in the TS50.

It's time to show know restraint. Wind up the boost on the Typhoon and drop a Supercharged V8 in the GT. I can guarantee you that the second FPV brings out the 320kw FPV GT, HSV will leapfrog them with the 325kw LS3 GTS.

I just hope FPV have something up their sleeves and aren't going to depend on the 320kw GT until the Hurricane rocks up in 2010-2011.

[T3ts50]

Originally Posted by sleekism

I'm pretty sure some of the higher end Mustang models have IRS.

It's time to show know restraint. Wind up the boost on the Typhoon and drop a Supercharged V8 in the GT. I can guarantee you that the second FPV brings out the 320kw FPV GT, HSV will leapfrog them with the 325kw LS3 GTS.

I just hope FPV have something up their sleeves and aren't going to depend on the 320kw GT until the Hurricane rocks up in 2010-2011.

No new Mustang has IRS, not even the higher end models. Unless Ford make the Boss euro 4 compliant (which they wont), they will have to depend on the 320kw to last until Hurricane is released. Im sure most people will accept HSV having 5kw more than the FPV.

[colossus]

Nissan GTR, BMW M3, Audi RS4 - just some of the cars off the top of my head I would buy over a $120K+ Commodore.

[AWD Chaser]

Originally Posted by Geoff EL 4.0

Personally you cant beat the sound that a V8 makes, if i was going to buy a performance car it would be a V8 or and I6 with turbo or mods etcc
I dont want my car to sound similar to a Formula 1 car i want grunt :evil3:
thats just my thoughts,if ford brought out a car with a V10 i would not get one(even if i had the money) no matter how fast it was.

F1 cars are actually a V8... and if you owned a F1 car and still wanted grunt... theres always forced induction...

Anyway, a F1 car only sounds the way it does because of it's small displacement... much like a motorbike...

[burnz]

Originally Posted by Fev

The LS2 and the LS7 is the same engine, just bored out and stroked isnt it?

youve got genIII 7.0 small block (ls1 427)
allso got genIV 7.0 small block (ls2 427)
crank rod mod only no rebore.


rebore rod mod,
ls1 7.2lt (432)
ls2 8.5lt (510)

[JC260]

just reading this thread with interest.

with the new engines ford has in development and the talk of the new 7ltr commo comming soon.
I'm just wondering is it at all possible to fit the engine from the Ford GT into a falcon? It's based around the basic 5.4's design and its got plenty of shove.
Does anyone know if this is, or has been considered as an option at all?
just the thought about a GT falcon with that motor in it....:sm_drool:

cheers

[RATT]

The I6 is going not only due to emissions, but mainly due to Fords desire to simplify its 6cyl engine range.

[theunfairadvant]

Originally Posted by sleekism

I say we need two things:

1) FPV GTR-twin turbo Barra, AWD, 350kw+

Woohoo I love that.
I'll be the first one on the queue to buy one if that were to happen.

[SeXC]

i think there is something ford isnt telling us.......

if we go to v6, then twin turbo xr6 is a lot easir to do........

the other thing is this, is the 5.4 a technological testing ground for an advance big block v8, i mean if they can pull the same power out of a 5.4 that holden can pull out of a 6l, then perhaps if ford resurrect a new age 427 jobbie, will that mean it will flog the 7l?

dont read a hell of a lot of news, but thats my conspiracy theory.

[sleekism]

Originally Posted by SeXC

i think there is something ford isnt telling us.......

if we go to v6, then twin turbo xr6 is a lot easir to do........

the other thing is this, is the 5.4 a technological testing ground for an advance big block v8, i mean if they can pull the same power out of a 5.4 that holden can pull out of a 6l, then perhaps if ford resurrect a new age 427 jobbie, will that mean it will flog the 7l?

dont read a hell of a lot of news, but thats my conspiracy theory.

A twin turbo V6 is never easy to do thus why there aren't many being made.

Ford is making the same horsepower as Holden but with a very big, heavy and peaky V8.

Correct me if I am wrong but isn't DOHC heads next to useless unless your travelling beyond 5000rpm and since the BOSS is undersquare it isn't exactly a happy revver.

What Ford really needs is an oversquare engine to make use of DOHC heads and VVT so as not to sacrifice low down torque.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by ESP

In a time now where we are all so spoilt for choice with some exceptional aftermarket tuners and products...............WHO CARES !!!!!!!

When you can now pick up a good second hand BA GT for 35K, spend anywhere from 5 - 15K on it and have a reliable 12 - 13 second street car........who really cares about FACTORY offerings anymore. Don't even mention the 6T cars...........for <10K they are lethal weapons.

Sure its great to have a good base to work with, but so long as anyone driving the BLUE OVAL has great armoury at their disposal. It doesn't really matter anymore. More and more people are driving new cars straight from the dealer to the aftermarket tuners workshops.

The battle between the marques is won in the aftermarket.........NOT on the showroom floor anymore. With most of the BOSS GT owners I know, the BOSS 290 decal on the bonnet is more indicative of RWKW than FWKW.......

ESP, I appreciate where you are coming from, but I'd beg to differ. For me, if you're going to stump up the $$$ for a new car, then I like to have the go fast bits fitted as standard. The last thing I can afford is to spend $65k on a GT then have to take it to a tuner and spend another $10k........and then lose my warranty whilst I'm doing it.

Call me old fashioned, but there's something special about hopping into a brand new factory car and having it perform damned well, stock. Why should you have to buy a 2nd hand car & mod it just to get really good performance?

Also, modding a car is a black art in itself. You try bits, put em on, take 'em off, change tunes, change exhausts....the list goes on. This forum is full of threads regarding tuning issues & problems. Personally, I work longish hours. I don't get RDOs. My time to tinker is minimal. To be honest, spending every 2nd weekend at my favourite tuner working out why the engine warning light keeps coming on isn't my idea of automotive utopia. Our car makers MUST continue to strive for making the stock item as good as it can possibly be for the price.

Brent.

[Ralliart]

Originally Posted by Nikk O'lass

CSV has already done a 7L VE, so it fits. HSV are probally just stirring the pot, but come 2010 when ford has its new V8's we might see a 7L GTS, who knows. Motor and wheels talk to much crap...

+1 i agree

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by sleekism

What Ford really needs is an oversquare engine to make use of DOHC heads and VVT so as not to sacrifice low down torque.

The Hurricane will fix that, its bore/stroke ratio will bring it close to square.

[kpcart]

Originally Posted by Kia Chaser

F1 cars are actually a V8... and if you owned a F1 car and still wanted grunt... theres always forced induction...

Anyway, a F1 car only sounds the way it does because of it's small displacement... much like a motorbike...

ahh, ok so now i understand why an f1 car sounds like it does... geez, have you forgot that they also rev to 19,000rpm and have no mufflers? i dont know many motorbikes with 2.4 litres like an f1 car.

[kpcart]

Originally Posted by gtfpv

mmmmmmmm imagine an FPV WITH AN ALLOY 7 LITRE BLOCK.. GO HOLDEN !!!

well said, if fpv were planning a falcon with an alloy 7 litre, imagine how excited all these people in this thread (who are downplaying holden) would get. the ls7 is a great lightweight, high revving for its size engine. its done wonders for the corvette.

Ford need to lift there game, the 302kw cobra wheels tested and could only manage 6.4 seconds 0-100km/h

[kpcart]

Originally Posted by ESP

In a time now where we are all so spoilt for choice with some exceptional aftermarket tuners and products...............WHO CARES !!!!!!!

When you can now pick up a good second hand BA GT for 35K, spend anywhere from 5 - 15K on it and have a reliable 12 - 13 second street car........who really cares about FACTORY offerings anymore. Don't even mention the 6T cars...........for <10K they are lethal weapons.

Sure its great to have a good base to work with, but so long as anyone driving the BLUE OVAL has great armoury at their disposal. It doesn't really matter anymore. More and more people are driving new cars straight from the dealer to the aftermarket tuners workshops.

The battle between the marques is won in the aftermarket.........NOT on the showroom floor anymore. With most of the BOSS GT owners I know, the BOSS 290 decal on the bonnet is more indicative of RWKW than FWKW.......

most retarded thing ive ever hear. if it was just aftermarket, youd be buying any car, regardless of how much power it has to start off with, perhaps just buying a empty shell and modifying it to your needs.
More people look at Standard cars then aftermarket tuning cars. a original hsv 385kw will always be more desirable and hold more value then a fpv modified to 400kw. the 7L holden sounds like a car to match european sports cars, not mid-class ford falcon gts. the 7L motor weighs 40kg less then the V10 in an M5, and makes heaps more torque and has a flatter power curve.

[kpcart]

heres food for thought, the new cadillac cts coming to australia this year has 227kw and 370nm torque, using the same 3.6litre engine as VE commodores but with Direct injection. this engine could see its way into standard commodores, and maybe holden can add turbocharging.. these numbers are better then the 3.7litre v6 ford is likely to get in the new falcon (launched in 09 lincoln first), the ford engine is rate as 201kw and 359nm. ford could end up losing across the range vs commodores in terms of factory spec performance.

[kpcart]

Originally Posted by colossus

If you can't work out what to do with 385kw you don't belong on a performance car forum...

excuse me, where are you? this is a general topic forum.

[kpcart]

Originally Posted by sleekism

Well people are willing to pay money for the new Datsun GTR.

Power sells, even if the torque curve is hopeless and max power is delivered up n the redline people will be proud of having more ponies. Heck I remember people bragging about who has the most power back in year11 and we are talking about Lancers and Corollas (my Laser proudly produced 76kw).

If HSV brings out the GTSR or FPV the GTHO at the very least it's got to be faster than the new Datsun GTR in a straight line. I don't care if it understeers like a pig the HO has to be faster than the Datsun.

It's a hero car it doesn't have to do anything. It just has to make a bazillion horsepower and pose for photographs.

People are willing to pay for the GT-R not just for the power, and you know this, it is a purpose-built race car for the road.

Only way fpv or gtho will beat the 'datsun' in a straight line is if they have 500kw engines and some super launch control system. the 'datsun' in standard form will beat any falcon whether its stock or aftermarket in just about everything.
Please read up on the GTR to see how good a car it is, your ignorance really shows with you refering to it as a 'Datsun'. Its called a Nissan GT-R. Ill tell you a few things about it, it lapped nurburgring in 7min 38 seconds, does 0-100 in 3.5 seconds and is 50 years ahead technologically then a FPV.

[XR6 Hulk]

Originally Posted by ea90gl

its all about bragging rights, apparently some people sleep better at night when they know thier car is quicker than someone elses

I sleep better at night if my car is quicker.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by Brent

ESP, I appreciate where you are coming from, but I'd beg to differ. For me, if you're going to stump up the $$$ for a new car, then I like to have the go fast bits fitted as standard. The last thing I can afford is to spend $65k on a GT then have to take it to a tuner and spend another $10k........and then lose my warranty whilst I'm doing it.

Call me old fashioned, but there's something special about hopping into a brand new factory car and having it perform damned well, stock. Why should you have to buy a 2nd hand car & mod it just to get really good performance?

Also, modding a car is a black art in itself. You try bits, put em on, take 'em off, change tunes, change exhausts....the list goes on. This forum is full of threads regarding tuning issues & problems. Personally, I work longish hours. I don't get RDOs. My time to tinker is minimal. To be honest, spending every 2nd weekend at my favourite tuner working out why the engine warning light keeps coming on isn't my idea of automotive utopia. Our car makers MUST continue to strive for making the stock item as good as it can possibly be for the price.

Brent.

Plus 1.

I have the utmost respect for modified cars and the people who own them provided they are engineered completely. CDAAs GT is probably the best car I sat in last year. Yes it goes but it goes with refinement and impeccable manners. On the day I couldn't fault its demeanour and for me that what sets modified cars apart.

I personally don’t know too many people that can claim their modified car hasn't had some sort of trade off in some area under some conditions. There probably is, its just that I don’t know them personally and that does affect my view on the world.

The Holy Grail is in stock trim by manufacturer’s specification for mine and personally I am prepared to pay for that.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by kpcart

People are willing to pay for the GT-R not just for the power, and you know this, it is a purpose-built race car for the road.

Only way fpv or gtho will beat the 'datsun' in a straight line is if they have 500kw engines and some super launch control system. the 'datsun' in standard form will beat any falcon whether its stock or aftermarket in just about everything.
Please read up on the GTR to see how good a car it is, your ignorance really shows with you refering to it as a 'Datsun'. Its called a Nissan GT-R. Ill tell you a few things about it, it lapped nurburgring in 7min 38 seconds, does 0-100 in 3.5 seconds and is 50 years ahead technologically then a FPV.

Of course, thats why they went to Cosworth to get the engine tuned and Lotus to do the suspension, yep its an all Nissan effort. They aren't 50 years ahead in technology, at best they are 6 months.

FFS why is it there is always turkey's who have to babble on about the GTR like its exhaust don't stink.

As for HSV, you know they suffer from small man syndrome over there so I wouldn't be surprised if they try and one up the incoming FPV's

[tapeworm]

Originally Posted by kpcart

heres food for thought, the new cadillac cts coming to australia this year has 227kw and 370nm torque, using the same 3.6litre engine as VE commodores but with Direct injection. this engine could see its way into standard commodores, and maybe holden can add turbocharging.. these numbers are better then the 3.7litre v6 ford is likely to get in the new falcon (launched in 09 lincoln first), the ford engine is rate as 201kw and 359nm. ford could end up losing across the range vs commodores in terms of factory spec performance.

Imagine the Falcon 6 being down on grunt to the Commo 6, it's the stuff of nighmares. I can see Holden bringing out an SV6 Turbo some day and it'll out sell the XR because of their superior marketing and popularity.