Police Car disguised as a Taxi?!?! - Page 3

GTjake · 18-10-2006, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozfords

Well thats just logical. A hidden security camera will pick up more people doing bad then a camera with flashing lights and massive signs proclaiming what is doing.

Right! But how many crimes did it prevent?

Sure it will stop the bad, but you'll just go somewhere else do to bad. A better deterrent is the cop knocking on your door putting forward the allegation that you've broken the law with the camera footage to back it up.

No, that's a good case. The crime is done. It didnt STOP anything. You're missing the point.

Say for example your driving along and there is a tool overtaking people on the hard shoulder, crossing double lines, racing you at traffic lights, revving their engine behind you, honking their horns, tail gating and so on. A marked car will stop them for short while.

An unmarked car following them for a short while then pulling them over and giving them a fistful of tickets should be a very stern warning.

And how long should they wait? How would they explain their actions to a bereaved family member? "Im sorry about your family,Sir. The drunk bloke who caused the accident had only racked up $500 in fines. Its Victoria Police policy to wait for $750. Bracksy needs the cash, Sir"

They might treat over road users much better knowing that an unmarked car maybe lurking around the corner.

Or maybe not. Unmarked cars, like speed cameras, dont prevent anything. They merely punish you after the fact.

The point was made by several others that fair enough, the cops have a job to do. BUT, make the best of them. Whether that is solving murders and other serious crimes or booking the nursing home bus for 3km/h over the limit, I dont know.
OK, yes I do.

It certainly seem that the offences that will net the government cash get more attention than they deserve. Even worse, the way those 'crimes' are pursued eg hiding marked cars.

The police attitude seems to be at best " the end justifies the means".
If the government is not instructing the police to do something less than 'pure', why the sneaky tactics? What have they to hide?

LTDHO · 18-10-2006, 07:32 AM

So now it will appear to be less police presents on the roads.

Also If I had a taxt behind me with flashing lights, I will not stop.

It is very naive to think you will be pulled over for doing the wrong thing.

knighto42 · 18-10-2006, 07:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nugget378

Is it not better to prevent crime,than clean up after the fact?

Isn't the idea that every second car could possibly be a cop incentive to slow down? If you know that the only cops out there are in marked cars it's easy to think 'No cops around - I might just give it a little bit more than usual'. If you don't know which cars are cops it's more like "That taxi, or that van, or that XXXXX could all be cops - I'd better not."

As for the 'entrapment' arguement - glad someone cleared that up.

Don't speed and you won't get caught - simple. If you chose to, and you get caught - it was you choice - don't whine about not knowing there was a cop car there.

Ozfords · 18-10-2006, 08:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GTjake

The point was made by several others that fair enough, the cops have a job to do. BUT, make the best of them. Whether that is solving murders and other serious crimes or booking the nursing home bus for 3km/h over the limit, I dont know.
OK, yes I do.

It certainly seem that the offences that will net the government cash get more attention than they deserve. Even worse, the way those 'crimes' are pursued eg hiding marked cars.

The police attitude seems to be at best " the end justifies the means".
If the government is not instructing the police to do something less than 'pure', why the sneaky tactics? What have they to hide?

For a start I apologise I'm not from Victoria, there is some leeway when it comes to speed in NSW. Just enough for downhill circumstances and innocent things like that. Victoria is a bit slack in its approach.

But your response to my example with the speeding tickets is flawed. Most normal people who do recieve $500 worth of speeding tickets might actually lose their license or finally get the point that speeding is AGAINST THE LAW.

With todays RTA (VicRoads) I think we just have to take the risk that they'll put people like that out on the road.

Theres nothing to hide, nothing sneaky about this, its just another tactic in regulating traffic related crime. I think alot of people miss the point that you're driving a weapon, everyone should be driving in a defencesive manner, but alot seem to think it's their right to be offensive. Tailgating, overtaking on double whitelines if theres a slow motorist in front, breaktesting and those idiots that you see zooming up on to you at great speed and attempting to overtake dangerously... so on and so on.

If you think there is something wrong with unmarked cars or hidden cars, its obvious, you have something to hide. Laws don't change every week, just visit your road authorities website or read the Australian Legal Information Institute website. Find out your obligations as a road user and follow them.

Psycho Chicken · 18-10-2006, 08:53 AM

For all the kiddies who watch too much Law and Order, there's no such thing as entrapment in Australia.

**Mechan1k** · 18-10-2006, 08:58 AM

Damn I better watch out around Blacktown then ... I hate taxis with a passion and ever instance I try and box them in and cut them off (give them a taste of their own medicine) ... but that's inner city.

I'll keep a close eye on them now ... they'd get a hell of a lot of people along the Gt Western Hwy though ... so many people speed along there (I am surprised I ahven't been caught myself ... yes I am guilty of going a little quick some day while i am working).

sunnyday · 18-10-2006, 09:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

For all the kiddies who watch too much Law and Order, there's no such thing as entrapment in Australia.

Of course there is...

Stupid coppers using taxis, if they book you then they will probarly put the meter on while they give chase or while they drive you to the cop shop

"Yeh thats $200 for speeding, and you're going to have to come down to the station with us so that be another $30 depending on the traffic"

Psycho Chicken · 18-10-2006, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sunnyday

Of course there is...

http://www.aph.gov.au/Library/pubs/r...-95/95rn47.pdf

No there isn't.

Ozfords · 18-10-2006, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

http://www.aph.gov.au/Library/pubs/r...-95/95rn47.pdf

No there isn't.

Top find PC. I think someone finally got some sense and realised if you've done bad, you've done bad. Even when you have been induced, not forced.

Either way Entrapment is something no existent in Australia and is definatly not the case with unmarked cars. Unless of course the taxi eggs you on to a do a burn out or pays you to break the speed limit and then books you. Even then its Entrapment and it doesn't matter in Australia, but it is dishonest Policing that does not happen.

FOR THOSE THAT MISSED IT, THE DEFINITION OF ENTRPAMENT IS: Entrapment courtesy of Wikipedia.

FPV GT · 18-10-2006, 10:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AUIII XR8 MAN

I guess they really need to raise more money. They can now book up, handcuff you then charge you a fare back to the Police stn.

:

hahahahahahahahahahahaha, onya Brett.

Food For Thought.

I wonder how may slow down for fixed speed camera's, or will not run the orange on red light cameras, but once away from the fixed camera speed up, or run the orange on non camera lights?

the black pig · 18-10-2006, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozfords

I know I'd rather be giving a punter a speeding ticket then having to complete an entire charge of Negligent Driving Occasioning Death, saves me having to attach the body tag to the victim as well.

A well marked police car persuades a whole roadfull of vehicles - hundreds of 'em - to drive more carefully. A stealth car like that cop/taxi, or the blue XR6Turbo with dark tint windows full of radar gear that I saw, misses the opportunity to dissuade hundreds of motorists to drive with more care and attention. Instead it just selectively picks off a speeder here and a speeder there. It's guaranteed to raise revenue because its less visible, so nobody is reminded to take care with their driving.

It's another money-pump for a government who would rather have cops out earning money for their bloated bureacracy and mismanagement, than preventing crime. Of course, they like cops to get all excited about high profile crime that gets in the media, but the low level crime that goes on all the time. Forgetaboutthecops. How many people here have had stuff stolen, have reported it, and have never seen it again. And never esxpected to, either. Its 'cos the cops tolerate crime, and work on money-raising activities instead. They're just a giant fecking sausage sizzle. What a joke. No wonder the community can't trust 'em, or anything they say.

Ozfords · 18-10-2006, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the black pig

A well marked police car persuades a whole roadfull of vehicles - hundreds of 'em - to drive more carefully.

How many people here have had stuff stolen, have reported it, and have never seen it again. And never esxpected to, either.

I agree with your first point. With that type of reasoning we need to beef up our Highway patrol or use some of the General Duties Police to just drive around, making their prescence felt. That would cost a bit. An unmarked car on the other hand would ping the drivers that deserve to be pinged. They will then realise that they need to be on the lookout for unmarked cars and they will most likely tell their mates the same info. Thats money well spent! Instead people might calm down for a milli-second when they pass a highway car or any marked car, but with unmarked cars, you're always being watched.

With your second point of having things stolen. I'm a police officer, I investigate thefts. It is very hard to prove someone has stolen something unless they admit it or we catch them with the gear. The same rights that protect you from corrupt noble cause policing are the same rights that protect the crims. We can't just bust into someones house and search it just because someone reckons they were the ones that stole their stuff.

Remember when you have expensive equipment, try and scratch your drivers license number into it and keep a record of the serial number. But best of all keep all expensive items under lock and key.

I've been to that many thefts were people have left doors unlocked, expensive tools sitting in the back of ute trays and to top it off one guy had a couple of chainsaws stolen from his front yard, they were just sitting there 24/7. Keep it real and guard your possessions.

Seriously I'm beginning to think alot of people think that they being hounded by the Police, you need mental help, or that it's their right to break the law whichever way they like but Police need to be super fair by annoucing their office and going around with big placards announcing that they are there.

kyro_02 · 18-10-2006, 11:46 AM

if there was a cop in a taxi and wants to pull me over i'd keep goin probably.. my defense would be 'well, there was once a cop impersonator that would pull people over!!' -and i felt threatend! - if anyone remembers it awhile back in victoria.. where 2 guys have ubd's and cop lights on a commodore etc that would pull people over???, they got caught in the end

Sourbastard · 18-10-2006, 12:50 PM

Heres my take on the whole issue.

Essentially road offences are a popular focus for police, because they spend more time in the car then they do on the beat. This mentality has entrenched itself into the upper echelons of the police fraternity for decades due to the increased needs for police mobility. The media also love a good car crash, its spectacular, its heart wrenching its all that crap that wide eyed morons love on TV between their Red Rooster ads. They whip the morons into a frenzy, which in turn whips up the politicians into a frenzy of "Action without Thought" who in turn jump up and down at the Police Commissioners to "Stop the slaughter on our roads that Ray told me about."

Justification for this focus is slowly reducing as can be seen from the Australian Road Toll. As much as the Media love to use it as a buzzword and bash us over the head whenever it rises by 1, it has been trending downwards consitantly since the early 70's.

In SA alone, our road toll hasnt been this low since the early 1950's.

I doubt greatly that the police have lowered this road toll, or both graphs would show dramatic downturns with the introduction of "safety cameras" other technology and the increased attention on road crime by the police.

What these graphs do show is the increase in engine power from pitiful 50's vehicles until the 70's with the downturn being a result of sudden increased focus in vehicle safety immediately afterwards. IE: The cars are getting better, the drivers are still as crap as ever. We have more drivers on the roads now then we did in 1950, yet we arent all dying in flaming wrecks on the side of the road, funny that isnt it(And as a result of our still crappy licensing systems, more idiotic drivers then ever). Lets have a round of applause for crumple zones, airbags and intrusion bars.

So in summary, yes you are being targeted. If the police spent all their time at the mall instead of on the roads, their focus would be on shoplifting and the consitancy of Frozen Yogurt. You are a target of convenience however, so dont take it personally. Are drivers just as bad now as they were in previous years? Hell yes. And the young will continue to be young and do stupid things just as all us old farts did.

Now the increase in hidden methods of detection do worry me. Not because of anything as mundane as road law, but because its a slippery slope once your police have to don civilian disguise to police the civilians. I object to being prosecuted by what are essentially spies in our midst, even if I'm told its for my own good, I bloody well object. Today its road offences, tomorrow its what I may say in public.

We have a justice system I hear you say? Checks and Balances? Hardly. Our courts system is overworked, under funded and cannot even cope with the cases it has now easily. Not that I have any faith in any court. The theory of innocent until proven guilty is a concept long lost in legal technicalities, political interference and draconian laws designed to strip what few liberties we still cling to.

Here endeth the rant. Didnt see that coming did you.

stockel · 18-10-2006, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozfords

Top find PC. I think someone finally got some sense and realised if you've done bad, you've done bad. Even when you have been induced, not forced.

Either way Entrapment is something no existent in Australia and is definatly not the case with unmarked cars. Unless of course the taxi eggs you on to a do a burn out or pays you to break the speed limit and then books you. Even then its Entrapment and it doesn't matter in Australia, but it is dishonest Policing that does not happen.

FOR THOSE THAT MISSED IT, THE DEFINITION OF ENTRPAMENT IS: Entrapment courtesy of Wikipedia.

Not sure what your saying here but when i was living in Doncaster (melb) I regularly sure an unmarked cop car reving its engine at the lights and taking off like a d*ckhead etc when next to young guys in nice cars, i know why he did it too, it was obviously successful because i saw him pull over plenty of people.

Then there was the time i was driving along Springvale road one night driving sensibly and out of nowhere a car came screaming up my ar*e and sat unbelievebly close I honestly thought he was almost touching me! It was very strange and i did ***** myself but i knew i had not cut anyone off or anything so i remained calm and maintained my speed and after him zigging and zagging left to right closer and closer etc for maybe 30 seconds (a long time in that situation) he eventually went around me and it was a cop (pursiut car).

The only conclusion i could reach was that he was trying to bait me and i forgot to mention that he had room to go around me it wasn't like i was holding him up.

These things do happen and i think its naive (sp?) to think that there are no bad apples out there and unfortunatley as is always the case the minority of di*kheads make things harder for everyone else.

Sorry this was probably a little off topic :yeees:

Casper · 18-10-2006, 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourbastard

Heres my take on the whole issue.

Essentially road offences are a popular focus for police, because they spend more time in the car then they do on the beat. This mentality has entrenched itself into the upper echelons of the police fraternity for decades due to the increased needs for police mobility. The media also love a good car crash, its spectacular, its heart wrenching its all that crap that wide eyed morons love on TV between their Red Rooster ads. They whip the morons into a frenzy, which in turn whips up the politicians into a frenzy of "Action without Thought" who in turn jump up and down at the Police Commissioners to "Stop the slaughter on our roads that Ray told me about."

Justification for this focus is slowly reducing as can be seen from the Australian Road Toll. As much as the Media love to use it as a buzzword and bash us over the head whenever it rises by 1, it has been trending downwards consitantly since the early 70's.

In SA alone, our road toll hasnt been this low since the early 1950's.

I doubt greatly that the police have lowered this road toll, or both graphs would show dramatic downturns with the introduction of "safety cameras" other technology and the increased attention on road crime by the police.

What these graphs do show is the increase in engine power from pitiful 50's vehicles until the 70's with the downturn being a result of sudden increased focus in vehicle safety immediately afterwards. IE: The cars are getting better, the drivers are still as crap as ever. We have more drivers on the roads now then we did in 1950, yet we arent all dying in flaming wrecks on the side of the road, funny that isnt it(And as a result of our still crappy licensing systems, more idiotic drivers then ever). Lets have a round of applause for crumple zones, airbags and intrusion bars.

So in summary, yes you are being targeted. If the police spent all their time at the mall instead of on the roads, their focus would be on shoplifting and the consitancy of Frozen Yogurt. You are a target of convenience however, so dont take it personally. Are drivers just as bad now as they were in previous years? Hell yes. And the young will continue to be young and do stupid things just as all us old farts did.

Now the increase in hidden methods of detection do worry me. Not because of anything as mundane as road law, but because its a slippery slope once your police have to don civilian disguise to police the civilians. I object to being prosecuted by what are essentially spies in our midst, even if I'm told its for my own good, I bloody well object. Today its road offences, tomorrow its what I may say in public.

We have a justice system I hear you say? Checks and Balances? Hardly. Our courts system is overworked, under funded and cannot even cope with the cases it has now easily. Not that I have any faith in any court. The theory of innocent until proven guilty is a concept long lost in legal technicalities, political interference and draconian laws designed to strip what few liberties we still cling to.

Here endeth the rant. Didnt see that coming did you.

So, in summary... they are after the revenue and this is just the easiest way to get it, statistics are just twisted to support it. Fill those quota's!

:

Sourbastard · 18-10-2006, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

So, in summary... they are after the revenue and this is just the easiest way to get it, statistics are just twisted to support it. Fill those quota's!

:

my way sounded better and had political intrigue and effing graphs. and effort and stuff.

Casper · 18-10-2006, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourbastard

my way sounded better and had political intrigue and effing graphs. and effort and stuff.

mine was readable and concise... not an effing essay.

(I did like the graphs though.. very professional of you.)

xdc351 · 18-10-2006, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fiery

But in saying this, I am not so sure I would be keen to pull over if it were a Taxi.. I think I would do what I was told by a copper once, if you are unsure, ring 000 - give location etc and see if a car is there.. tell them that you are not pulling up until you either reach a service station or a police station.

Let me know if they fine you for using your mobile phone when you try this...

86XFFairmont · 18-10-2006, 01:20 PM

one of yas should try hailing the taxi and actually see if they stop but it would be hard to do a runna on one ove "those" Taxis

xdc351 · 18-10-2006, 02:01 PM

Oh, and nice graphs SB! Would love love to see the "revenue generated vs road toll" and "revenue generated vs local govt investment in road saftey" over the same period.... But I think the road toll would be 1mm off the bottom of the graph compared to the 10,000 fold increase in revenue.... doubt the investment in road safety would be visible without a magnifying glass either.

And before anyone starts on the money the government pumps into the TAC, I refuse to count propaganda machines as 'road safety' initiatives. If they were half serious about stopping kids/pedestrians/cyclists/etc getting hit by cars there'd be as many ads warning about the dangers of not looking left and right before crossing the road, don't j-walk, keep an eye on your kids, etc. Seen any of those lately? Thought not, no money in that. Far easier to brainwash the masses into believeing that your a murderer should your car roll 3kmh over the limit and a child runs onto the road in front of you, just so you stop complaining when they use your fine revenue to prop up their budget... Just imagine that we, heaven forbid, could for one moment take our eye's off our speedo's long enough to actually see that kid chasing the ball onto the road? But if your not speeding its not your fault anyway, right?

What a crazy state we live in.

**GasoLane** · 18-10-2006, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozfords

THIS IS A STUPID THREAD. Who cares if cops are driving around in unmarked cars and if you get pulled over. WHAT IS SO WRONG ABOUT IT??

I think the point most are trying to make is that ANY unmarked car will not stop stupid people from doing stupid things just catch them afterwards. Therefore they are not preventing crime just waiting until a law has been broken, this to me is not crime prevention.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozfords

Remember, if you're not breaking the law, you will not be charged.

hehheh, wanna bet. How about getting booked for a spelling mistake in your log book!

What our Morris needs to do is throw buckets of money at the Police force for more staff and more marked cars. Some of the areas that some GD (and HP) cars have to cover after office hours is bordering on the ridiculous.
And if overtime is needed, for accidents etc, Mr Plod at the scene has to radio for permission to stay there!!

**GasoLane** · 18-10-2006, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sourbastard

my way sounded better and had political intrigue and effing graphs. and effort and stuff.

Yeah but Caspers was smarter... he let you spend all that time and effort and then just tacked a little piece on the end

Steffo · 18-10-2006, 03:14 PM

I've seen some suspicious looking cabs on the M4 Motorway (Sydney). On the start of the M4, when you pass under the Concord Road bridge, its a 60 zone becoming a 70 zone, stays 70 for almost one km then becomes 90. Most people go 100+ along that 70 zone, its 2 lanes each way, concrete divider in the middle, and concrete barriers on each side. Nowhere to really stop people, except a little emergency lane thing about half way up that stretch of freeway. And almost every night that I drive it (After 9pm usually) there's a taxi parked in that little emergency lane thing. That would be a prime place to catch people going 30+ over the limit...

4.9 EF Futura · 18-10-2006, 03:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Casper

So, in summary... they are after the revenue and this is just the easiest way to get it, statistics are just twisted to support it. Fill those quota's!

:

I dont think many people would debate the accuracy of these observations.

But I have to say... is it such a bad thing?

The government needs money. It will get it one way or the other.

They have laws - the appropriateness of which could be debated, but i think 50/60 on most city/town roads and 100 on the freeway is "about right".

People exceed these limits and they are forced to pay money to the state.

If you dont want to pay money to the state, it's pretty easy to stick to the speed limit. Again - the need to do so is debateable, but i think most of us would agree that you wont get too many speeding fines if you dont speed.

For every dollar they take from a speeding motorist, that's one less they need to strip out of my paypacket.

So, the safety argument... it's a bit of a farce. Most people accept the argument tho, so they run with it (remember this is a motoring forum, so it's not really a representive sample when you're talking about motoring related opinions.. i.e. most people on AFF probably dont beleive the safety argument).

Would you guys be as against revenue raising if they called that spade a spade?

Stugots · 18-10-2006, 03:30 PM

Quote:

If you think there is something wrong with unmarked cars or hidden cars, its obvious, you have something to hide. Laws don't change every week, just visit your road authorities website or read the Australian Legal Information Institute website. Find out your obligations as a road user and follow them.

Nothing to hide, but something to fear. Perhaps it's a deficiency with operating procedures for police but I've had what turned out to be an unmarked XR8 with fog lights on in built-up areas (illegal & dangerous?) tailgating me while on the motorcyle, forcing me to speed up and away so they are immediately being unsafe and have already put me and other road users at unecessary risk, quite possibly they were aware of this which is why they didn't issue a ticket AFTER they put their lights/sirens on and pulled me over. Same would be the case with a taxi dressed car. The only thing "wrong" is it can unintentionally cause dangerous situations which puts other road users lives in danger. Unless public announcements are made through the media etc that a taxi could potentially be an unmarked police car, it can cause confusion and at worst a needless tragedy.

Iphido · 18-10-2006, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelwithinvisiblewings

Iphido where did you find that?

I made it up..

angelwithinvisiblewings · 18-10-2006, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ozfords

I don't understand the issue here.

Seriously.

People whinge if theres; too many cops, too little cops, lazy cops, cops that go out of their way to do their work, unmarked/plain cloths cops and the one that tops it is the speed kills advertising with the cop holding the speed radar, 'oh its so intimidating.'

THIS IS A STUPID THREAD. Who cares if cops are driving around in unmarked cars and if you get pulled over. WHAT IS SO WRONG ABOUT IT??

I applaud those that have recognised what entrapment is: "In jurisprudence, entrapment is a legal defense by which a defendant may argue that he or she should not be held criminally liable for actions which broke the law, because they were induced (or entrapped) by the police to commit said acts. For the defense to be successful, the defendant must demonstrate that the police induced an otherwise unwilling person to commit a crime. However, when a person is predisposed to commit a crime, offering opportunities to commit the crime is not entrapment." Entrapment, courtesy of Wikipedia.

Remember, if you're not breaking the law, you will not be charged.

Thank you for that :voldar02: I knew what is was but kind of needed it re-explained...cheers. I tend to agree with the above...like I said before...I don't care how they catch the buggers so long as they do.

angelwithinvisiblewings · 18-10-2006, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iphido

I made it up..

LOL...yes I know...

I thought it was funny....hehehehe

the black pig · 18-10-2006, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by angelwithinvisiblewings

..I don't care how they catch the buggers so long as they do.

You don't care how our police behave? You don't care if they show no respect to the society they are supposed to serve? You don't care if they ignore and break the law in catching law breakers? You don't care if they endanger or hurt innocent people?

I DO care how the police exercise their considerable powers. To NOT care is to invite them to abuse their powers and to give our few remaining rights and freedoms to the state. Where do you think dictatorships originate?