percentage of accidents caused by excessive speed - tell me the number

[flappist]

Originally Posted by xxx000

BENT 8 is correct with all he says

I'm tired of the term 'revenue raising' and its all too frequent use. A financial penalty along with points penalty makes most people think a little bit more about their manner of driving.
If it was all about the money as some suggest then during double demerits the govt would have doubled the fines as well as the points but they haven't.

The claim or inference by some that if the fines were removed but points remained then they'd all be happy is rubbish. The simple fact is people don't like being penalised so the argument would merely change in that case.
The bleeding obvious is that lots of people on here speed and think that they are safe doing it and try to justify it.
Yesterday I watched a motorcyclist undertake me on a single lane 50km/h road. He then undertook numerous other cars, turned right against a no right turn sign and all at probably 80 km/h+.
I'm sure he had an excuse and thinks that he is a good rider who is somehow justified in doing that but the fact is he was putting himself and others at increased risk by his stupidity. Oh and yes, surprise, surprise, he had the rego label turned to partially cover the rear plate too.
Speed cameras are just one measure to try to alter drivers behaviour but there are some on the bell curve that don't get the hint and make excuses instead.

Yep all the experts making a better world by fixing human behavior.

Speed cameras......bought to you by the people who:

Forced left handed children to write with their right hands and punishing them for non compliance..
Relocated indigenous children away from their families with no thought for the effects on the communities.
Relocated children of young unmarried mothers with no thought of the effects on the natural families and the adoptees.
Jailed and "re-educated" homosexual men.
Forced a white Australia policy.
And my personal favorite, actually committed the only success genocide in modern history when they wiped out the Tasmanian Aborigine.

Need I go on........

All of these above were Government policies for the peoples own good to solve perceived problems in society and there were just as many do-gooders on high horses attacking anyone who disagreed then as there are now.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yep all the experts making a better world by fixing human behavior.

Speed cameras......bought to you by the people who:

Forced left handed children to write with their right hands and punishing them for non compliance..
Relocated indigenous children away from their families with no thought for the effects on the communities.
Relocated children of young unmarried mothers with no thought of the effects on the natural families and the adoptees.
Jailed and "re-educated" homosexual men.
Forced a white Australia policy.
And my personal favorite, actually committed the only success genocide in modern history when they wiped out the Tasmanian Aborigine.

Need I go on........

All of these above were Government policies for the peoples own good to solve perceived problems in society and there were just as many do-gooders on high horses attacking anyone who disagreed then as there are now.

Big difference between speed cameras and what you quote above is the pressence of Religion. all your quoted 'policies' were born out of a religious ideology, affecting a political and cultural action.
Speed cameras, support them or not, affect only those who step outside what this society considers normal. If you really believe the majority of our community is so vehementally against them why do we not see a 'arab summer' style rise against out policy makers. we havent seen it as speed camera penalties are a low priority compared to many other important issues facing our proletariate.
Like the gst you only pay if you choose to, choose to not abide by our rules that is.
JP

[noflac52]

Originally Posted by xxx000

BENT 8 is correct with all he says

I'm tired of the term 'revenue raising' and its all too frequent use. A financial penalty along with points penalty makes most people think a little bit more about their manner of driving.
If it was all about the money as some suggest then during double demerits the govt would have doubled the fines as well as the points but they haven't.

The claim or inference by some that if the fines were removed but points remained then they'd all be happy is rubbish. The simple fact is people don't like being penalised so the argument would merely change in that case.
The bleeding obvious is that lots of people on here speed and think that they are safe doing it and try to justify it.
Yesterday I watched a motorcyclist undertake me on a single lane 50km/h road. He then undertook numerous other cars, turned right against a no right turn sign and all at probably 80 km/h+.
I'm sure he had an excuse and thinks that he is a good rider who is somehow justified in doing that but the fact is he was putting himself and others at increased risk by his stupidity. Oh and yes, surprise, surprise, he had the rego label turned to partially cover the rear plate too.
Speed cameras are just one measure to try to alter drivers behaviour but there are some on the bell curve that don't get the hint and make excuses instead.

I notice that you use this example as dangerous to himself and others and quite rightly so!

If the cameras are so good why aren't you using an example of motorists driving 5 or 6 ks over the limit as the ones causing mayhem on the roads?

Probably because it has no substance to it.

How effective do you think speed cameras are going to be in changing his behaviour?

I can answer it for you, totally ineffective!

Better policing on the streets is the only effective means to curb bad behaviour but our govts won't fund it even though there is vast revenue from cameras. The funds are siphoned off to other areas and the motoring public are left with inferior roads, policing and out dated road rules.

There is a plus side. If govts used every cent of the money generated by motorists to improve the system it would go a long way to improving things to the point where we could get rid of the archaic system we have at the moment. The trouble is that won't happen when free money is available to them to fund projects that make them look good in the short term in other areas.

People will still be booked by speed cameras. The govt will spend the money elsewhere and the road toll statistics won't change!

[flappist]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Big difference between speed cameras and what you quote above is the pressence of Religion. all your quoted 'policies' were born out of a religious ideology, affecting a political and cultural action.
Speed cameras, support them or not, affect only those who step outside what this society considers normal. If you really believe the majority of our community is so vehementally against them why do we not see a 'arab summer' style rise against out policy makers. we havent seen it as speed camera penalties are a low priority compared to many other important issues facing our proletariate.
Like the gst you only pay if you choose to, choose to not abide by our rules that is.
JP

Yes the big difference is that having spent time seeing the real effects of these policies rather than the theoretical effects we discovered that we were wrong and the policies were recended.

I do thank you for your support in stating "Speed cameras, support them or not, affect only those who step outside what this society considers normal."

Who actually asked society what they thought was normal?

And more importantly did the society of the time think that left handed people, gay people, unmarried mothers, mixed race indigenous or even non white people were "normal"................

But back to the who speed/speed camera farce.

I would like one of the apologists to explain to the forum why the road toll in Victoria where there has been draconian enforcement of speed and speed cameras for more than 20 years still constantly has about the same average road toll as the rest of the country..........

[2011G6E]

Good luck finding that figure...it's a more closely guarded secret than some of the stuff ASIO has hidden away.

The thing I have always wanted to know is "If you booked X number of people extra on this long weekend (Easter, for example) on a certain stretch of road, then how many extra accidents were there on that stretch?"

That's another thing they just don't want to answer. If there were no extra accidents, then it implies the speed limit is too low for the traffic volume.

Another one that's very hard to find is when they say they have snapped thousands of people over a weekend holiday period, but refuse to break it down into speed ranges. For instance, how many people were doing 10kph or less over the limit, and how many were being truly dangerous and doing 30 or 40 over the limit? They always splash big headlines like "5000 speedsters caught, including one doing 190kph!!!!". Yes, but what were the majority of people caught doing? That's the truly interesting figure.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yes the big difference is that having spent time seeing the real effects of these policies rather than the theoretical effects we discovered that we were wrong and the policies were recended.


I do thank you for your support in stating "Speed cameras, support them or not, affect only those who step outside what this society considers normal."

Who actually asked society what they thought was normal?

every 4 years or so we are asked! Australians fail to take it seriously, how many actually research and engage inthe process? yet complain for the next 4 years about an outcome they disagree with.

And more importantly did the society of the time think that left handed people, gay people, unmarried mothers, mixed race indigenous or even non white people were "normal"................
No they werent 'normal' a society brainwashed by religion, politics propoganda, dogma who do not think for themselves, but think only of themselves will see anything different to them or their view of the world as not normal

But back to the who speed/speed camera farce.

I would like one of the apologists to explain to the forum why the road toll in Victoria where there has been draconian enforcement of speed and speed cameras for more than 20 years still constantly has about the same average road toll as the rest of the country..........

I don't believe speed cameras are just about road safety. I do believe they are about maintaining law and order. Social Order and cooperation is the strategy that has seen the western world rise to the levels of security, strength, comfort that it has, that has never before been seen in human history. The policies that have contributed to this maintenance of order may often be seen as draconian, as sometimes they tread over a percieved freedom. In this case the freedom to travel faster than a predetermined limit (oh the first world problems). But in reality these rules are in place to maintain order, to prevent the unforseen from happening to protect the lowest common denominator.
I am sure you and all those pro no speed limits are the best drivers (chose not to enter F1 to persue careers in accounting, plumbing, labouring whatever) in the best cars, who have nothing but great luck (never had a small child run in front of their car) but you are a small minority of the public. most can barely move a car with competence Im not sure we want a carte blanch approach to speed, anarchy would ensue. speed limits might seem trivial, but the in the complex web of our society undoing or pulling doen one node can lead to an unravelling!
And my final point on removing these law enforcement devices. just beacuse youve never been stabbed, raped, robbed or had your children stolen doesnt mean it doesnt happen. By the same logic becuase the road toll is not affected by the law enforcement perhaps we should remove the police...as I bet nobody can prove that they contributed to your safe life...?

[flappist]

Seriously?

You are using the "oh if you don't like a policy then maybe we should not have police" defense?

Why is it that everytime I ask the same "Why is Victoria no safer" question not one single person comes up with anything other than hyperbole, misdirection or personal attacks?

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

I don't believe speed cameras are just about road safety. I do believe they are about maintaining law and order. Social Order and cooperation is the strategy that has seen the western world rise to the levels of security, strength, comfort that it has, that has never before been seen in human history. The policies that have contributed to this maintenance of order may often be seen as draconian, as sometimes they tread over a percieved freedom. In this case the freedom to travel faster than a predetermined limit (oh the first world problems). But in reality these rules are in place to maintain order, to prevent the unforseen from happening to protect the lowest common denominator.
I am sure you and all those pro no speed limits are the best drivers (chose not to enter F1 to persue careers in accounting, plumbing, labouring whatever) in the best cars, who have nothing but great luck (never had a small child run in front of their car) but you are a small minority of the public. most can barely move a car with competence Im not sure we want a carte blanch approach to speed, anarchy would ensue. speed limits might seem trivial, but the in the complex web of our society undoing or pulling doen one node can lead to an unravelling!
And my final point on removing these law enforcement devices. just beacuse youve never been stabbed, raped, robbed or had your children stolen doesnt mean it doesnt happen. By the same logic becuase the road toll is not affected by the law enforcement perhaps we should remove the police...as I bet nobody can prove that they contributed to your safe life...?

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by flappist

Seriously?

You are using the "oh if you don't like a policy then maybe we should not have police" defense?

Why is it that everytime I ask the same "Why is Victoria no safer" question not one single person comes up with anything other than hyperbole, misdirection or personal attacks?

Because many see it as the same thing! law enforcement is a wide ranging responsibility from road speed to rape! pull one you might as well cease it entirely, a much bigger and more complex picture than just your desire to travel faster than you can now

And Victoria may not be safer as a result of speed cameras, but the protagonists have data that suggest it might be. The naysayers have nothing but rhetoric in their argument, often reducing an issue to a simple black and white discussion, armchair experts carry no credibility. I'm no expert, I choose to let the experts make the rules on issue I'm not that keen on dissecting. On others that really affect me and in real terms not perceived inconvenience, I take action.

And it's not going to change unless you change it, get out there and lobby, become vocal, research data, as you know this argument comes up every few weeks and Im yet to be convinced that law enforcement cameras are a bad thing, the anti argument is weak.
JP

[BENT_8]

Look, if its too hard to understand that speed camera's are there as a deterrent then we are wasting our times trying to explain it.

Like I said 3 pages ago, a speed camera acts the same way a bretho does. The constant reminder in the back of your mind that if you have a few too many drinks there is a real chance that you may be pinged in an RBT.
Its the same with speed camera's. The general population knows that if you step over the line you will get pinched and the majority act accordingly.

Obviously, there are plenty of people who avoid the booze bus, and reality dictates that the chances of getting done are slim, but to a vast majority they comply making the roads much safer.
So too with speed cameras, if there was no risk of being fined then everyone would be pushing that much harder to be at the front, and we know how that would end
.
There has to be a line drawn somewhere and the powers that be set that limit.
We don't always agree with it, and I could count a handful of roads in my area where the limit is below what it should be, but it is what it is, and will be until someone stands up and changes it.
If the government puts a speed camera on a certain location and makes 10k a day who's fault is it, the governments for installing it or the motorist whom ignores its presence?

There's no point spending your time complaining on a Forum about how its all not fair, the fact is, the relevant avenues to get change are in place, but know one wants to do the hard yards.

Just like education in schools, you will never reach everyone, and with that, many go through life doing as they please on the roads, justifying it by proclaiming a superior ability all the while whinging when they get pinched in what has become a regular presence in life, speed camera's.

I could understand if we were having this conversation 20 years ago when fixed speed detection devices were in their infancy and relatively new to Australian roads, but not in 2013.
If the message hasn't sunk in by now, it never will.

The road toll will never be '0'.
Anytime you apply millions of moving objects to a thin ribbon of space it will result in the occasional collision, but it is not how many collisions recorded that make speed cameras effective, its the number of collisions which never occur and this cant be gauged.

Victoria is a small state with a large motoring population, you will always get higher statistics in small areas of higher concentration in comparison.
The chances of an accident are greater, a no brainer really.

[DDXR6T]

Honestly - I don't know why everyone complains about speed limits and speed cameras. Fact is, without speed limits, the roads would be utter chaos with people doing whatever speeds they want. People also have different skill levels, which would result in some drivers being terrorised by more competent drivers who want to go faster.

On the subject of speed cameras - the mere fact they exist is a deterrent. Anyone who speeds, knows that cameras and Police are out there. I hear lots of people say "Red light/speed cameras do nothing, I slow down for the intersection, then speed up after". Well, that means the camera did its job in an area that statistically is the location of a significant portion of road accidents.

If you want to travel at excessive speed on public roads, then I hope you don't have a licence long. You may be a great driver, but, you can't predict what other drivers may do or their skill level.

[LTDHO]

To the OP, so no one can provide you with a difinative answer as the data is not captured.

OK, I have a story (and I am prepared to be flamed)

The other day I took my LTD to work, I have now done it twice in ten years. On my way home I driving along a new Link road we have here in Victoria. Traffic was light as it was mid afternoon. However I still being over causious of nearby vehicles. My focus was more one what everyone else was doing as I was a little paranoid about being hit by a reckless driver. It was a good cruise and I wasn't involved in any accidents.

Two weeks later I did receive a fine for 106 in a 100 zone.

maybe I should have paid more attention to my speedo and less to my surroundings *shrugs*. However I's rather a $175 (off memory) fine than have to get the LTD repaired.

[aussiblue]

For all fatalities speeding accounts for 34%, drink driving 30%, drug driving 7%, restraint non-use 20% and fatigue 20-30%. For all serious injuries speeding accounts for 13 per cent, drink driving 9%, drug driving 2%, restraint non-use 4 % and fatigue 8% (Australian Transport Council, n.d.).
https://www.anzpaa.org.au/current-in...ing-statistics
and page 25 of http://www.atcouncil.gov.au/document...20_15Aug11.pdf

But read these reports in full and you might get some understanding of why there is a focus on speed and the cost to the nation of excess speed related road accidents. I have problem with the focus on reducing illegal speeding on public roads.

http://www.atcouncil.gov.au/document...nplan_0708.pdf
http://www.atcouncil.gov.au/document...20_15Aug11.pdf

Speed management
Improvements in speed management have generally been incremental since
2000, but in Victoria large scale integrated speed management initiatives
were implemented from early 2002. Measured travel speeds declined
on many parts of the road network, not just at enforcement sites. These
changes were followed by a large and sustained reduction in road deaths
(Figure 4), particularly among vulnerable road users and in urban areas,
where the effect of travel speeds was greatest. There is evidence that
improved speed management has made a major contribution to the overall
improvement in road safety outcomes in Victoria.5

[aussiblue]

.....and also note that the country with the highest monetary speeding fines (Sweden) has the second lowest Road fatality rates per 100,000 population among OECD countries, 2009.

[GTP owner]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Look, if its too hard to understand that speed camera's are there as a deterrent then we are wasting our times trying to explain it.

So too with speed cameras, if there was no risk of being fined then everyone would be pushing that much harder to be at the front, and we know how that would end

The road toll will never be '0'.
Anytime you apply millions of moving objects to a thin ribbon of space it will result in the occasional collision, but it is not how many collisions recorded that make speed cameras effective, its the number of collisions which never occur and this cant be gauged.

Victoria is a small state with a large motoring population, you will always get higher statistics in small areas of higher concentration in comparison.
The chances of an accident are greater, a no brainer really.

You are make some generralisations that are wrong.
Firstly, not everyone will try to race each other. See the NT as an example of that. Open speed limits resulted in most going abour 130km/h in a sedan, and grey nomads still travelling at 90.

Next, you agree the road toll will never be 0. Therefore, more speed cameras won't achieve this target, nor will heavier fines on loing weekends.

As for the small state/lots of cars. More serious accidents and fatalities occur in rural areas. There is less chance of a serious crash when you are in gridlock in the centre of melbourne than between 1am and 5am on a rural road.

[aussiblue]

UK stats are an interesting comparison given it has the lowest Road fatality rates per 100,000 population

see page 5 of https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...cgb2011-00.pdf

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Well to be honest, if you cant sit on 58 in a 60 zone, 78 in an 80 zone, or 108 in a 110 zone without staring at your speedo, then perhaps there is an underlying issue.

If the world is flat, no cars ever slow down, bends didn't exist and everyone just drives at the exact same speed all day then maybe. But in real life it is quite hard to keep your speedo bang on for extended periods of time under normal road and traffic conditions.

Originally Posted by Outbackjack

Simple question. How does a speed camera slow someone down???

Speeding drivers see the camera, slow down to 10 below the limit. Then once they clear the camera they speed back up again. I see it all day every day.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

.....and also note that the country with the highest monetary speeding fines (Sweden) has the second lowest Road fatality rates per 100,000 population among OECD countries, 2009.

Yes but Sweden also has no hoons in Holden Commodores, sugar cane paddocks full of cane toads, cyclones, crocodiles or vegemite sandwiches does it?

How about instead of per person you actually compare it per vehicle as Sweden does not have a lot of vehicles per person compared the its neighbours.
Oh of course, that figure is about the same a Germany which has open zones, hmmmm awkward.......

Then of course you use OECD which at about 30 countries is less than 10% of the planet. Again make sure you leave out tens if not hundreds of countries that have basically no road toll at all mostly due to them not actually having any real roads but hey this is statistics spin doctoring 1:01 so never let any truth get in the way of a good story.

[steve.zissou]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yep all the experts making a better world by fixing human behavior.

Speed cameras......bought to you by the people who:

Forced left handed children to write with their right hands and punishing them for non compliance..
Relocated indigenous children away from their families with no thought for the effects on the communities.
Relocated children of young unmarried mothers with no thought of the effects on the natural families and the adoptees.
Jailed and "re-educated" homosexual men.
Forced a white Australia policy.
And my personal favorite, actually committed the only success genocide in modern history when they wiped out the Tasmanian Aborigine.

Need I go on........

All of these above were Government policies for the peoples own good to solve perceived problems in society and there were just as many do-gooders on high horses attacking anyone who disagreed then as there are now.

love that - spot on

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by DDXR6T

Honestly - I don't know why everyone complains about speed limits and speed cameras. Fact is, without speed limits, the roads would be utter chaos with people doing whatever speeds they want.

I thought I read this thread, but I may of missed some of it. Where is part where people were saying they want to get rid of all speed limits? If you can refer to a post number I would appreciate it.

[steve.zissou]

OK as the OP I have taken what every one said onboard and found what i was looking for
http://www.dpti.sa.gov.au/__data/***...nkbook2011.pdf

SA stats show 6.4% of accidents due to excessive speed.

Yes speed contributes to accidents- the faster you go the harder you hit but ................. does that mean we should all do 30 kmh on the hwy - no.
Does that mean I should do 110 legally when there is a class 3 cyclone - no

The issue I have is that nothing is being done about the other 93% of accident causes - we are just feed this matra that speed kills - which is BS (well 93% BS)

Now this may go against my own argument and will no doubt upset a lot of you, but I speed every where according to the govt. - meaning that i drive to conditions and I might do 90 in a 80 zone if there are no driveways and no trafic. I might do 130 in a 100 zone (like driving from SA to WA) . I also might do 90 in a 110 zone if its raining - get my point

I also have full points on my licence I drive 80,000 kms a year I I have to say it - any one that gets booked by a speed camera (at least in NSW) deserves it because if your paying attention to the road you cant miss them. The only times I have had an accident or been booked (many years ago) was when i was driving along with traffic but not paying attention - just day dreaming and thinking about other things like every one else on the road.
Now i pay attention, I can see idiots before they even pull out, swerve, go through red lights, etc etc.

So my issue isnt with speed cameras per se, but the fact that they are doing nothing about the other more important causes.

where's the driver training, were are the police busting people for doing make up or txt'ing (id see 3 each morning on the way to work) - wheres the ad's saying you'll go to jail if you kill someone because you were txt'ing (and then actually send them to jail not give them a 18 month suspended sentence)

for the record - come up with ideas to address the other 93% as below:
Table 18 Fatal Crashes and Fatalities by Apparent Error of Road
User Responsible, South Australia,

D.U.I. 19
Inattention 25
Fail to Stand 4
Fail to Keep Left 13
Change Lanes to Endanger 1
Fail to Give Way 6
Reverse Without Due Care 3
Follow Too Closely 1
Overtake Without Due Care 2
Disobey – Stop Sign 1
Disobey – Give Way Sign 4
Died Sick or Asleep At Wheel 2
Vehicle Fault 1
Excessive Speed 6
Drunken Pedestrian 6
Total 94


also just want to point out that you are getting fined for not obeying the rules - not for speeding.

In california, your not speeding if you are simply keeping up with traffic - if every one is doing 100 in a 80 zone becasue the road is good and trafic is light and its a nice day - your not speeding. On the other hand if your doing 80 in an 80 zone while every one else is doing 40 due to bad road conditions then you are actually speeding - but i guess speed cameras cant make this call and it woul also be harder to fine people for 3kmh over

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Ben73

I thought I read this thread, but I may of missed some of it. Where is part where people were saying they want to get rid of all speed limits? If you can refer to a post number I would appreciate it.

Again that is one of the standard lines of those who have no actual real world experience.

Speed limits are necessary in most places if for nothing more than to give an indication to those who are unable to assess their environment and determine what a reasonably safe speed would be.

But they are not necessary in ALL places and on many occasions it is much safer to exceed a speed limit sometimes by a significant amount than to expose a vehicle to other potential dangers.

Many people are uncomfortable with and some terrified by the concept of having to make decisions without micro management and be responsible for repercussions.

Does this seem familiar.......

I am below the speed limit, I feel safe, nothing can hurt me and even if it does it will be someone else's fault so I will not be responsible.

What you want me to make decisions without micro management or worse still let others make decisions.
I cannot do this and I am amazing so obviously no one can do this as I am a better driver than everyone else. I have never even had a parking ticket.
I am afraid. I am afraid.
I will kick and scream and complain and attack anyone or anything that tries to prevent me from feeling safe. I am the centre of the universe. Nothing and no one is more important than me feeling safe.
If everyone would just do what they are told like I do then they would all feel safe just like me........

[EVLKNEVL]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

armchair experts

You don't consider yourself one of those? Is that because you're not in an armchair or because you're not an expert?

http://www.mddriversalliance.org/p/a...d-cameras.html

http://camerafraud.wordpress.com/201...rease-crashes/

http://motoring.ninemsn.com.au/cars/...-reduce-deaths

http://cars.uk.msn.com/news/report-s...E2%80%99t-work

http://www.roadsense.com.au/whyfailed.html

[In Focus]

Originally Posted by flappist

Does this seem familiar.......

I am below the speed limit, I feel safe, nothing can hurt me and even if it does it will be someone else's fault so I will not be responsible.

What you want me to make decisions without micro management or worse still let others make decisions.
I cannot do this and I am amazing so obviously no one can do this as I am a better driver than everyone else. I have never even had a parking ticket.
I am afraid. I am afraid.
I will kick and scream and complain and attack anyone or anything that tries to prevent me from feeling safe. I am the centre of the universe. Nothing and no one is more important than me feeling safe.
If everyone would just do what they are told like I do then they would all feel safe just like me........

OK, so let's come at these from a different angle...

I am below the speed limit, I feel safe, nothing can hurt me and even if it does it will be someone else's fault so I will not be responsible.

I am above the speed limit, I feel safe, nothing can hurt me and even if it does it will be someone else's fault so I will not be responsible.

What you want me to make decisions without micro management or worse still let others make decisions.

What you want me to make decisions guess what other people are going to do without micro management or worse still let others make decisions.

I cannot do this and I am amazing so obviously no one can do this as I am a better driver than everyone else. I have never even had a parking ticket.
I am afraid. I am afraid.

I can drive faster and more safely than everyone else and I am amazing so obviously no one can do this as I am a better driver than everyone else. I have never even had a parking ticket.
I am over-confident. I am over-confident.

I will kick and scream and complain and attack anyone or anything that tries to prevent me from feeling safe. I am the centre of the universe. Nothing and no one is more important than me feeling safe.

I will kick and scream and complain and attack anyone or anything that tries to prevent me from making others unsafe. I am the centre of the universe. Nothing and no one is more important than me making others unsafe.

If everyone would just do what they are told like I do then they would all feel safe just like me.......

If everyone would just do as I do then they would all be unsafe just like me.......

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by EVLKNEVL

You don't consider yourself one of those? Is that because you're not in an armchair or because you're not an expert?
Im not an expert, nor in an armchair. I have a belief in our society working in harmony pursuing order. I see order beginning to break down and to be honest it's a lot of fun getting a rise out of some people. I do however work in an environment where My decisions are scrutinised, where any opinion must be researched and supported, and that research must stand or i'm toast. I spend a lot of my professional career trawling through argument and counter argument and tend to side with research and properly written outcomes rather then my own bias.

http://www.mddriversalliance.org/p/a...d-cameras.html

These guys come across as scared of the commies under the bed types, sometimes irrational in their argument, if I read properly their main gripe however is the privatisation of the enforcement method and the poor tactics used in that enforcement. they offer very little in hard statistics often citing other web blogs and media reports also lacking in argument

http://camerafraud.wordpress.com/201...rease-crashes/

A great attempt at sensationalism: online survey conducted by Independent Communications and Marketing Research (http://www.icmresearch.com/) with 1,532 drivers between 9 and 10 June 2010). too small a sample to convince anyone surely and as also stated int he report but not in the media the declarations of drivers putting accidents down to speed cameras may be very subjective, and the number of these accidents reported in the study is, of course, very small and may not be representative of the whole population of drivers. (my hair is 82 percent softer and 93 percent less frizzy ( 101 women surveyed))

http://motoring.ninemsn.com.au/cars/...-reduce-deaths

For everyone of these opinion pieces there are plenty countering them, and since the article quotes statistics the sample period is less than a year, road accidents and fatalities happen in cycles with peaks and troughs seasonally affected, again not a strong argument for a statistical analysis no matter who is making the claim

http://cars.uk.msn.com/news/report-s...E2%80%99t-work

Oh again another 'report' this time written by an electrical engineer. a field of expertise on collecting, collating and analysing data. There are almost as many properly researched, and written counter arguments by professional researchers and counter claims against Mr Finney's research methods and conclusion as there are media reports reporting it as fact. The Man has been declared a serial pest in some circles oft he UK research world

http://www.roadsense.com.au/whyfailed.html

This appears to be a much better case for the argument, but they don't suggest removing speed cameras, they do suggest a different methodology for their use however. They also refer and believe many other factors need addressing to lower the road toll, a better policy across the board and I do not argue against that.

I personally don't care if there is cameras or not. Don't speed and you wont get fined, don't run a red light and you'll not get t-boned don't play with fire and you wont get burned and don't believe everything you read, investigate the author, the method of data collection and the countering argument collect the whole story then form an opinion, as you can see there are always two sides, always both with an agenda.

JP

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

don't run a red light and you'll not get t-boned
JP

I know of people who will disagree with that.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

I personally don't care if there is cameras or not. Don't speed and you wont get fined, don't run a red light and you'll not get t-boned don't play with fire and you wont get burned and don't believe everything you read, investigate the author, the method of data collection and the countering argument collect the whole story then form an opinion, as you can see there are always two sides, always both with an agenda.

JP

but that is the point that your dismissing, their all wrong but govco is right.
apparently they have proof, but wont share it.

don't speed and you wont get fined.... tell that to the thousands of motorist in every state that received a fine from known faulty camera.
yes they the gov knew they were faulty but got caught out.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by burnz

but that is the point that your dismissing, their all wrong but govco is right.
apparently they have proof, but wont share it.

No I don't believe the Government is right, from what I have read and researched, from what I have experienced the best arguments are coming from the pro Speed camera side. their 'storytelling' if you will (by storytelling I mean presentation of facts and supportable peer reviewed research methodologies and outcomes) is more aligned with how I make decisions, how I back up my own decisions and how I come to an opinion. I didn't dismiss all cases offered in the post I countered with the need for documented evidence rather than hearsay and rhetoric, I saw agenda inform statement and irrelevancy as well, much as I do with our own government, the opposition and others and the media.
As for Proof and sharing, again if the proof doesn't fit a particular opinion it must be wrong. I have my opinions, I like to think these have been reasoned through my own research, of weighing up the pros and cons argument and counter argument, many of my Views are in direct opposition to my own desires but I recognise this in my reasoning, if it sometimes aligns with others so be it doesnt mean I agree wholeheartedly with them or it.

However if the truth really be known I'm all for free speech, free speed and free choice, I will declare to be an armchair (thanks evlknevl) anarchist. the more incompetents wiped out through poor decisions the better, I consider the innocent as collateral damage and as I have no family am less likely to be affected by the tolls, smoke drink speed and pay no attention. Bring it on, But to maintain a semblance of order speed cameras have their place.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by In Focus

OK, so let's come at these from a different angle...



I am above the speed limit, I feel safe, nothing can hurt me and even if it does it will be someone else's fault so I will not be responsible.



What you want me to make decisions guess what other people are going to do without micro management or worse still let others make decisions.



I can drive faster and more safely than everyone else and I am amazing so obviously no one can do this as I am a better driver than everyone else. I have never even had a parking ticket.
I am over-confident. I am over-confident.



I will kick and scream and complain and attack anyone or anything that tries to prevent me from making others unsafe. I am the centre of the universe. Nothing and no one is more important than me making others unsafe.



If everyone would just do as I do then they would all be unsafe just like me.......

Thank you for demonstrating my point perfectly.

[In Focus]

Originally Posted by flappist

Thank you for demonstrating my point perfectly.

If it was meant to be a silly point, then you succeeded. My "counter" argument was certainly not intended to be serious.

[aussiblue]

How about instead of per person you actually compare it per vehicle as Sweden does not have a lot of vehicles per person compared the its neighbours.
Oh of course, that figure is about the same a Germany which has open zones, hmmmm awkward.......

Actually I would argue that cars per km of road is the better way to compare countries road toll stats here http://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IS.VEH.ROAD.K1
So lets compare Oz to Canada where aside from many social and economic similarities the Moose, Polar Bears and snow and ice make up for the cane toads and roos.