BF Vs VE - What to expect?

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by au3 chaser

Obviously not...

Of course there are cars out there that can get up to 250kph + and weigh 2000kg or over, but they wouldn't be able to handle very well at those speeds..... if at all....

Anyway, the VE and BF will not be designed to do these fast speeds, so what does it matter.... as long as you have enough torque to move your heavy a*** car off the line at a decent speed, you'll be fine....

Yes your right


The new HSV looks pretty good very low. Get the covers off and we will see how tuffer it is.

[Jock260]

Originally Posted by baboon

The VE will have 6L of V8 and sound OK and go OK. The BF V8 will sound better and will go OK. I think ford needs to improve on the already powerful BOSS engine. Hopefully more research and development in BF2 V8s will make our DOHC's outperform the 6L pushrods. Ford needs to put a lot of effort into its N/A V8s, its where I think we can really close the door on Holden.

i agree totally, i think we need to improve on our boss v8's, they are great powerful engines, but this 6L holden/HSV have, well it just outdoes us, only just, we need to put a little bit more power, maybe 20 kilowats, that will seal the deal for sure

my 2c

Originally Posted by MightyXR6Turbo

The Alloytechs from all accounts wont have an increase, infact because of Euro emission standards at January 1, 2006, the Alloytechs actually all decreased in power.

the 190 remained at 190 so care to check yourfacts?

[baboon]

Originally Posted by minesbeta:-)

i agree totally, i think we need to improve on our boss v8's, they are great powerful engines, but this 6L holden/HSV have, well it just outdoes us, only just, we need to put a little bit more power, maybe 20 kilowats, that will seal the deal for sure

my 2c

Yep, thats right. A nice 20kW across the whole rev range would be very nice!

[FGX-351]

Originally Posted by devil cv8

the 190 remained at 190 so care to check yourfacts?

Torque was decreased in the 190.

[Fordoldie]

Originally Posted by au3 chaser

Obviously not...
Of course there are cars out there that can get up to 250kph + and weigh 2000kg or over, but they wouldn't be able to handle very well at those speeds..... if at all....

Anyway, the VE and BF will not be designed to do these fast speeds, so what does it matter.... as long as you have enough torque to move your heavy a*** car off the line at a decent speed, you'll be fine....

A good mate just told me that HSV's Maloo Ute holds the World land speed record for a production (standard) Utility. Some like 270km/h!

You have to acknowledge that the Alloy V8s they have are pretty damn good. If Ford/FPV didnt have the Turbo 6 they would be feeling pretty damn sick

[VooDoo]

Originally Posted by XR8MAD

How can you use the word Caprice and nimble in the same sentence. When I think nimble I think Lotus, not Holden Caprice. And as for light? Well the new Holdens will weigh more so that cant be right either.

The car I saw was an SS I think. It was a dark blue colour. It looked much chunkier that the current cars, kind of like a fat Vectra. The last thing that came to my mind was nimble. More like...................obese.

I can

12.1sec times and beat a WRX around QLD raceway

[Dilan]

Originally Posted by VooDoo

beat a WRX around QLD raceway

I've seen an F6 beat a 360 around a track, doesn't mean the F6 is better...it just shows that the 360 driver was ****.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by VooDoo

I can

12.1sec times and beat a WRX around QLD raceway

Your not the guy that owned the HSV Grange with Supercharger that was running around the race track in 40deg heat with the A/C on lapping all the heat stroked people are you?

[OzJavelin]

I don't really give a toss one way or the other. I just wish they'd release the damn thing so people can stop getting all upset about it! These long, drawn out releases are a joke .... Ford aren't any better; except for the BF which was released without anyone knowing nor being able to differenciate between the superceeded BA and the new BF. Bring back yearly updates!!!

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

I don't really give a toss one way or the other. I just wish they'd release the damn thing so people can stop getting all upset about it! These long, drawn out releases are a joke .... Ford aren't any better; except for the BF which was released without anyone knowing nor being able to differenciate between the superceeded BA and the new BF. Bring back yearly updates!!!

Yeh right.

Yearly updates will only **** whats left of the Australian big car used market.

Holden are always bringing out a Series II or a new model, bloody resales on them are a good indication of why this isnt smart business practice.

[AWD Chaser]

Originally Posted by LSTerritoryGhia

Yeh right.

Yearly updates will only **** whats left of the Australian big car used market.

Holden are always bringing out a Series II or a new model, bloody resales on them are a good indication of why this isnt smart business practice.

Yes, but if they only released a new model every year, you would have cars plagued with problems and about 5 recalls per model if not more.

For this very reason, it is why alot of us do not buy new cars, because it is very affordable to buy a near new used car... eg. MY AU3 - still had 6 months factory warrenty, cost $36k new (and also had police mods, etc), and I got it for $15k - more then a 50% loss on original sale price, and still under warrenty... (Don't tell me about how government get it cheaper because the same model cars at that time where had the same resale price on them)...

I think that Holden are doing what Mitsu did with the 380 and getting some media spin and speculation on it before the release.... I hope for Holdens sake, it doesn't end up like the 380... so far it looks like it... literally...
I think if Ford did what Toyota did, and just show the world, people might start saving their pennies early to buy one.... plus, the public would also be able to have a valid input before the release... rather then input on speculative data, etc...

[Bucket]

One thing that im curious to see is acceleration times on the 6 Cyl. Model...100+Kg's and only 10 more Kw's...I think it's Torque may be the achillies heel...

[Bucket]

I'd also love to See Ford drop an Orion "preview" promotional bombshell right on or just before the VE's release...that would unsettle the GM roost

[Phoon Hoon]

Originally Posted by Bucket

I'd also love to See Ford drop an Orion "preview" promotional bombshell right on or just before the VE's release...that would unsettle the GM roost

Yeah - or a week before, announce that DSC will be standard on every Falcon sold from that point on.

[XR8MAD]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

OK we are not talking about your Big ****, It's the VE.
And it's easy I'll do it again, Light and nimble CAPRICE Together again.
It pulled out of a driveway bloody long it was, And went right onto the street and zoomed off out of sight in a blink. And to top it off driving it was a lady with 3 kids all in holden tops
Weight means nothing to a cars handling it's nowhere near impossible to see a car as being more nimble then expected and well balanced. And from behind i didnt know it was the LWB till it was turned on and then i seen the LED's. For god sake there are some cars out there over 2000kg and clock up speeds of 290kp/h plus.

So what!!!! Its still not going to be nimble. As I said before a little sports car is nimble. A Caprice, a G220, an SS, an XR8 a GT a Clubsport, they ARENT nimble cars. Weight means ALOT in handling terms with these cars. They are big and heavy. U have to wrestle them to race them and they take a certain ability to drive them around town. Thats why the are called 'muscle cars'.

Another insight to a HOlden owner is in you post aswell mate. This woman in the Caprice 'zoomed off out of sight in a blink' WITH 3 KIDS IN THE CAR!!!!
The stupidity of some staggers me sometimes.

[Disco1986]

basically i think the VE will be far better then the BF (I'm man enough to admit it!) Holden have put close to 1 billion bucks into it, so the chances are thier will be big improvments all round! I would still pick a BF over the VE no matter wot tho, but thats just cos im bias and love ford. Just think in 2007 we will be having the same thread, but about the Orion vs the VE and how much better it will be!

[XR8MAD]

Originally Posted by VooDoo

I can

12.1sec times and beat a WRX around QLD raceway

But yours is modded mate. My XR8 can out handle a WRX too. It has a pedders suspention in it. My mate with the rex was more than i little annoyed!!!! LOL Stupid ricers!!!!!!!!!

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by XR8MAD

So what!!!! Its still not going to be nimble. As I said before a little sports car is nimble. A Caprice, a G220, an SS, an XR8 a GT a Clubsport, they ARENT nimble cars. Weight means ALOT in handling terms with these cars. They are big and heavy. U have to wrestle them to race them and they take a certain ability to drive them around town. Thats why the are called 'muscle cars'.

Another insight to a HOlden owner is in you post aswell mate. This woman in the Caprice 'zoomed off out of sight in a blink' WITH 3 KIDS IN THE CAR!!!!
The stupidity of some staggers me sometimes.

You will see wait till they drive them;)

Now you calling them muscle cars? My take on muscle cars are massive engines no power steering no safety features cause they weigh to much, No cornering all straight line performers.
If you need to muscle your car your doing something wrong, Take Dick Johnson and Peter Brock, They looked like they were driving to the shop for a paper and milk when racing.
Remember in 04 when Skaife drove the HRT and Mconville drove the VZ SS and Brock drove the A9X?. Amazing nimbleness from the SS to stay in-front of Brock's old race car.
We could even take some lap times of Road cars in the Bang for buck. Large cars lapping faster then much smaller lighter cars.
Just because i said it looked smooth and nimble something i didnt expect from it's size. From that your going on from that?.

Originally Posted by XR8MAD

Another insight to a HOlden owner is in you post aswell mate. This woman in the Caprice 'zoomed off out of sight in a blink' WITH 3 KIDS IN THE CAR!!!!

Whats with that?.

[Fordoldie]

Originally Posted by Bucket

One thing that im curious to see is acceleration times on the 6 Cyl. Model...100+Kg's and only 10 more Kw's...I think it's Torque may be the achillies heel...

I think some of you are kidding yourselves thinking Holden would be stupid enough to spend a cool billion to have something that was slower, or less economic. Come on wake up! The driveline will be far more efficient (even the base 4 spd) in getting the power to the ground. It could quite easily have an extra 20 kws or more at the rear wheels. 10 FWKW means nothing.
I remember a whole lot of people bagging their HSV's a few years back and then it was..."oh dear we better build something like that too"
Quite frankly I dont think the BF will be in the same league, I hate to say it but apart from a few technology updates thats it until 2008. Pricing is going to be Ford's biggest advantage for a while IMO

[rst2000]

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

I think some of you are kidding yourselves thinking Holden would be stupid enough to spend a cool billion to have something that was slower, or less economic. Come on wake up! The driveline will be far more efficient (even the base 4 spd) in getting the power to the ground. It could quite easily have an extra 20 kws or more at the rear wheels. 10 FWKW means nothing.
I remember a whole lot of people bagging their HSV's a few years back and then it was..."oh dear we better build something like that too"
Quite frankly I dont think the BF will be in the same league, I hate to say it but apart from a few technology updates thats it until 2008. Pricing is going to be Ford's biggest advantage for a while IMO

spot on fordoldie..ford will be playing catchup again until at least 2008..

[AnthonyQLD]

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

A good mate just told me that HSV's Maloo Ute holds the World land speed record for a production (standard) Utility. Some like 270km/h!

The top speed record 271.44kph that was over a 1Km strait.

"After the speed in both directions were recorded, Mr Sheedy observed the data being down loaded form the MOTEC dash logger which had been fitted to the Maloo for the attempt. Speed 1 was recorded at 265.72 kph, speed 2 was recorded at 277.16 kph, setting the new world record at a blistering 271.44 kph. Mr Sheedy then was able to officially award Mark Skaife and the HSV team the new world title"

[AnthonyQLD]

Im not sure if these pictures have already been posted :

[Fordoldie]

Originally Posted by XR8MAD

So what!!!! Its still not going to be nimble. As I said before a little sports car is nimble. A Caprice, a G220, an SS, an XR8 a GT a Clubsport, they ARENT nimble cars. Weight means ALOT in handling terms with these cars. They are big and heavy. U have to wrestle them to race them and they take a certain ability to drive them around town. Thats why the are called 'muscle cars'.
Another insight to a HOlden owner is in you post aswell mate. This woman in the Caprice 'zoomed off out of sight in a blink' WITH 3 KIDS IN THE CAR!!!!
The stupidity of some staggers me sometimes.

Dictionary.com offers this if it makes it easier for you:
NIMBLE
1.Quick, light, OR agile in movement or action; deft: nimble fingers. See Synonyms at dexterous.
2.Quick, clever, and acute in devising or understanding: nimble wits.

Something your head is obviously struggling with so thought I would help

"Zoomed out of sight in a blink" ....Maybe it was a UFO?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

I think some of you are kidding yourselves thinking Holden would be stupid enough to spend a cool billion to have something that was slower, or less economic. Come on wake up! The driveline will be far more efficient (even the base 4 spd) in getting the power to the ground. It could quite easily have an extra 20 kws or more at the rear wheels. 10 FWKW means nothing.

The Barra engine was supposed to be 8% more economical than AU, but the extra weight of around 100kg meant that the BA used slightly more fuel. How is the VE going to be any different. It will use more fuel and be slower than the VZ, fuel prices went high too late in their production cycle for them to change anything bar maybe the diff ratios. Ford has the advantage for Orion now because they have had time to make changes to focus on fuel economy.

[MightyXR6Turbo]

Originally Posted by Fordoldie

Cmon on wake up! The driveline will be far more efficient (even the base 4 spd) in getting the power to the ground. It could quite easily have an extra 20 kws or more at the rear wheels. 10 FWKW means nothing.

The base 4spd? How can the driveline be more efficient?! It is the same old 4spd mated to the same engine. The diff isn't a huge source of loss, it would be the trans. I think you are kidding yourself if you think that the VE in a base model (Omega) will have much power behind it. Torque will definately be the issue with this car. Same as the mid series models that have the 5spd auto, its the same old auto so again how will that change?

The only thing that poses a change is the 6spd auto, but that is just another GM box, can't comment on its quality because it hasn't been slotted into a VE yet.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by rst2000

spot on fordoldie..ford will be playing catchup again until at least 2008..

Just like Holden has been playing catch up since 02.
Thats the way it normally happens.

[XR8MAD]

Originally Posted by SlickHolden

You will see wait till they drive them;)

Now you calling them muscle cars? My take on muscle cars are massive engines no power steering no safety features cause they weigh to much, No cornering all straight line performers.
If you need to muscle your car your doing something wrong, Take Dick Johnson and Peter Brock, They looked like they were driving to the shop for a paper and milk when racing.
Remember in 04 when Skaife drove the HRT and Mconville drove the VZ SS and Brock drove the A9X?. Amazing nimbleness from the SS to stay in-front of Brock's old race car.
We could even take some lap times of Road cars in the Bang for buck. Large cars lapping faster then much smaller lighter cars.
Just because i said it looked smooth and nimble something i didnt expect from it's size. From that your going on from that?.

Whats with that?.

Look Slickholden, Im not sure U understand. A Caprice is not a nimble car. A GT is not a nimble car. An A9X race car is not a nimble car. A V8 supercar is not a nimble car. Just because a late model SS can out handle a 30 year old race car dosnt make it nimble. These cars are all big, heavy and can go from major understeer to power oversteer with the push of the go pedal. If you have ever raced these types of cars you would know what im talking about mate. The definition of a nimble car would be an open wheel racer. An F1 car. An FF or even a go cart. These are nimble, even when they are a dog they would out manouver an SS and a GT without a problem. If you want a road going comparison then the Lotus Elise, or the new mini would be described as 'nimble' as their low weight and low ride height would give them suprerior road holding. Its a fact mate.


And, yes, every sports version of the Falcon and the Commodore are defined as muscle cars. Im sure most people on this forum would agree. Have you driven a porsche latley? I have. And an XR8 or HSV has no handling ability what so ever when you compare these two types of car. So in reply to your post then, yes, Falcons and Commodores are really great straight line performers. As for brakers and turners, well they leave a little to be desired before they are recognised as true supercars. And thats why we love them so much!!!!!

[phillyc]

The makers of the 4spd auto in the Falcon DSI (Drivetrain System International) who were formerly ION announced about 2 months ago to The Australian that they are to release a 6 spd auto by 2008.

The 6spd auto is to begin production at the rate of about 40,000 in the first year with total factory production rising to 180,000 units within a few years. The 4 spd will begin to phase out in 2009. This 6spd unit will also be used in a Korean 2 Tonne SUV (ie Territory size) and has been the model used in as a test for the big drawcard...

The 6 spd auto will be capable of HYBRID drive and have a torque rating of 450Nm. The type is called soft hybrid because the motor still needs to be in use when cruising, adjusting combustion power as required. ie as little as an idling amount of fuel which is usually 2L per hour when not required.

The way it works is that an Electric motor / generator takes the place of the torque convertor and also does away with the need for a starter motor.

In tests with the Korean SUV, DSI have found an increase in performance in the vicinity of 20% as well as increase in economy of 25%. Put it this way, a 6cyl Hybrid Falcon would do a 0-100kmh in 6s flat and have an official average economy of 8L per 100km.

These increases in performance and economy don't even take into account possible improvements such as Direct Injection which i'm sure Ford would be working on and possibly weight reductions through the increased use of composites such as those used on the ute's leaf spring mounts.

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by XR8MAD

Look Slickholden, Im not sure U understand. A Caprice is not a nimble car. A GT is not a nimble car. An A9X race car is not a nimble car. A V8 supercar is not a nimble car. Just because a late model SS can out handle a 30 year old race car dosnt make it nimble. These cars are all big, heavy and can go from major understeer to power oversteer with the push of the go pedal. If you have ever raced these types of cars you would know what im talking about mate. The definition of a nimble car would be an open wheel racer. An F1 car. An FF or even a go cart. These are nimble, even when they are a dog they would out manouver an SS and a GT without a problem. If you want a road going comparison then the Lotus Elise, or the new mini would be described as 'nimble' as their low weight and low ride height would give them suprerior road holding. Its a fact mate.


And, yes, every sports version of the Falcon and the Commodore are defined as muscle cars. Im sure most people on this forum would agree. Have you driven a porsche latley? I have. And an XR8 or HSV has no handling ability what so ever when you compare these two types of car. So in reply to your post then, yes, Falcons and Commodores are really great straight line performers. As for brakers and turners, well they leave a little to be desired before they are recognised as true supercars. And thats why we love them so much!!!!!

I think you take the word nimble to far personally. your basing all this on I'm saying it's light. I'm not. But can't i for have my own opinion on what a car looked like to me when i was sitting there watching it move? For something so large it was not a tank in movement, It wasn't a boat, It was smooth very smooth to my surprise, It will shock some people when they step in it.

Now if you going to bring Porsche F1's FF into a discussion your going to open yourself a hole there.
Should we talk prices? Have you driven a ford lately? Takes 5 years to own one and double them years to save the deposit for a Porsche.
Brakes MFG they both Ford and Holden HSV FPV invest plenty in brakes, And they corner they turn they don't just go straight.
And i don't think we Australians use the term Muscle car at all or even GT cars.
You ever been to Calder park? $250 have a race there;).