Do you pre-fill your oil filter and, if so, are we doing it right?

[aussiblue]

BTW I have always pre-filled and in the last 20 years or so always from the center outlet hole. However, I know when I started out I used to fill from the perimeter holes perhaps because vertically mounted hole down filters were more common in the 60's and 70's and it was probably often the only way to keep the oil in the filter; but then you had to make sure you bought one with an anti-drain valve as not all had them back then (I think they were less common in fact). I probably moved to filling from the centre outlet holes when I stopped servicing vertically down mounted filters (my mates Rambler Rebel sticks in my mind) and started changing filters on cars where the filter was always vertically mounted hole up or at least angled up where the spill out of the outlet hole was no longer an issue.

[aussiblue]

So Bent 8 can you find a filter manufacturer that agrees with you? I think someone is trolling me.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

So Bent 8 can you find a filter manufacturer that agrees with you? I think someone is trolling me.

You said it was possible to prefill the filter on a Toyota S series engine because a provision on an oil filter to prevent it leaking would be adequate in such a situation and referred to it as the anti drain back valve,.
I asked wether you meant the membrane which is situated beneath the inlet holes on the filter as from my understanding dating back to the 90's when it was highlighted to me by a former Castrol tech who was working in spare parts at a parts shop, the anti drainback valve is on the filtered side of a filter to prevent oil draining back into the filter when the engine is stopped.

I was simply asking for clarification of which you were referring to and posted up a diagram from Wiki to confirm, then you went on a rant about how they are both anti drainback valves etc. etc.

The link to the Patent design i posted specifically refers to this part of the filter as a barrier membrane because thats what it is, a membrane which allows oil to flow through in one direction, it could also be referred to as a valve, but condidering there are other 'valves' of its nature within the filter, i was questioning which of these you were reffering to in your initial response.

The only trolling is by you on yourself because you were so hell bent on being correct that you refused to acknowledge that the actual part which you push past with the funnel to prefill a filter is called a membrane.

Now, looking at the poll results it would appear that 50% of respondants dont bother prefilling and another 40% are doing it incorrectly as the small amount of oil which could fit between the exit hole and the anti drainback valve on the filtered side is so small in comparison to the void left after filter removal, combined with the fact that none of that prefilled oil will be introduced to the engine until oil pressure is achieved at the post filtered anti drain back valve, it benefits would be not worth the effort.

[aussiblue]

Sigh..

OK

I was simply asking for clarification of which you were referring to and posted up a diagram from Wiki to confirm

Which I did and added what I thought was simply clarification.

you went on a rant about how they are both anti drainback valves

No; I didn't and in fact I pointed out that one known as an "anti-siphon valve."

[aussiblue]

To get back on the topic and reiterate the original question is, as some warnings suggest, filling through the centre outlet hole actually worse that leaving the filter empty? And if are going to pre-fill should we, as is also suggested, only fill through the perimeter inlet holes. I am starting to think fill from both the centre outlet hole (with a screened funnel) and the perimeter inlet holes with a small funnel that can push the anti-drain valve open on one side.

[Itsme]

To be quite honest where does it say in most car owner books, repair manuals that says you must prefill oil filters, I have only ever seen one mentioned and that was on a diesel engine that a work mate shown me once.
I only do it out of habit as this was shown to me by an old mechanic who taught me basics in my younger days but I do firmly believe fitting a dry oil filter to petrol engine will do no harm during a regular service.
Diesel engines I won't really comment as I have had bugger all experience with them.

[aussiblue]

I have to admit that while I have been pre-filling for nearly 50 years, the advantage of doing so is likely negligible and at best probably only adds a few hours to engine life; but old habits are hard to kick.

[asagaai]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

I have to admit that while I have been pre-filling for nearly 50 years, the advantage of doing so is likely negligible and at best probably only adds a few hours to engine life; but old habits are hard to kick.

Thing is- filling the centre hole - there is a danger of introducing contaminants to engine that are not filtered- so will be unnecessary wear.

And if filling the side holes and pushing open the membrane to get the oil in- is a danger of damaging the membrane with all the problems that will introduce.

And as Bent 8 noted- will be a delay in any event before oil pressure forces oil through the filter-so from my perspective you are introducing a whole lot of risks with negligible benefits.

Probably using a sample of 1,000 users over 20 years will be more damage than good pre filling filters.

[Silver Ghia]

So I hope those that do prefill oil filters, do it through the smaller inlet holes and not through the centre hole.

If you do it through the centre hole, how can you guarantee that the plastic bottle that the oil comes in was 100% clean, free of plastic swarf that may not have been removed before filling? Or other contaminants or foil seal remnants in the oil that will go straight into the engine oil galleries and clogging up an oilway.

I've never prefilled oil filters, it only takes a few seconds for oil pressure to be restored with the engine idling, and running surfaces are still protected by the remaining oil. I've never seen any oil filter installation instructions saying to prefill filter before installation. And I defy anyone who can prefill the oil filter canister in the Territory diesel TDV6.

Newly rebuilt engines, or engines that have been sitting for some time is a different situation however.

Edit: I notice asagaai above has said much the same, but these are purely my thoughts, having written it before noticing asagaai's post above.

[GO FURTHER]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

So I hope those that do prefill oil filters, do it through the smaller inlet holes and not through the centre hole.

Well of the 29 respondents to the poll so far, who pre-fill their filters, seems like only 2 people or 6.9% are doing it correctly.

I think everyone who has taken an interest in this thread has learnt something, including myself if we are all honest with ourselves.

[d@rk51d3]

Originally Posted by Silver Ghia

So I hope those that do prefill oil filters, do it through the smaller inlet holes and not through the centre hole.

If you do it through the centre hole, how can you guarantee that the plastic bottle that the oil comes in was 100% clean, free of plastic swarf that may not have been removed before filling? Or other contaminants or foil seal remnants in the oil that will go straight into the engine oil galleries and clogging up an oilway.

I've never prefilled oil filters, it only takes a few seconds for oil pressure to be restored with the engine idling, and running surfaces are still protected by the remaining oil. I've never seen any oil filter installation instructions saying to prefill filter before installation. And I defy anyone who can prefill the oil filter canister in the Territory diesel TDV6.

Newly rebuilt engines, or engines that have been sitting for some time is a different situation however.

Edit: I notice asagaai above has said much the same, but these are purely my thoughts, having written it before noticing asagaai's post above.

Mind you. If you're going to find "contaminants" in your new oil, I'd wager you're just as likely to find some form of contaminant in your new filter too.

[arronm]

You dont need to prefill filter, you just need to ensure oil pressure is positive before you let the engine start>>>>>>>>>>>

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by d@rk51d3

Mind you. If you're going to find "contaminants" in your new oil, I'd wager you're just as likely to find some form of contaminant in your new filter too.

I do check the centre hole for metal swarf before fitting. And if there is no packaging seal over the filter base.

However if there are contaminants already in the new filter, it is not caused by prefilling.

[aussiblue]

This is just me thinking aloud but, if you look at purpose of the anti-drain back valve quoting the FRAM website http://www.fram.com/support/faqs/#q7 for example (no; definitely not my preferred filter but still):

The anti-drainback valve, included in the filter when required, prevents oil from draining out of the filter. This anti-drainback valve is actually a rubber flap that covers the inside of the inlet holes of the filter. When the oil pump starts pumping oil, the pressure will unseat the flap. The purpose of this valve is to keep the oil filter filled at all times, so when the engine is started there will be an almost instantaneous supply of oil to the engine.

So if pre-filled from the small holes (accepting that the line from the pump to the filter will likely be at least partially empty) it should still help with getting that almost instantaneous supply of oil to the engine over an empty filter at first start. And if it's deemed desirable or essential to have that oil in the inlet side of the filter on subsequent starts, then why not also on first start after the oil change.

I note the design of the anti drain back valve has changed over time and it appears most are now made of tougher and more heat resistant silicone. They are also molded on the underside or shaped in such a way as to provide their own sealing "spring" pressure to form a complete valve e.g: https://i.imgur.com/LwTxBxn.jpg A couple I have seen while researching this also appear to have a silicone tube holding an anti siphon valve molded into their centre (can't find the examples again now; when I do I will post a link). In any event, from my experience when they were still just less hardy neoprene or rubber they stood up well to being opened with a very small plastic funnel spout gently push in one of the perimeter holes. Pushing a plastic funnel spout gently in a perimeter hole to open the valve probably exerts much less pressure than when the oil is delivered by the pump opens it, albeit the funnel spout is more localised and harder than oil and so yes it probably does pose a minimally increased risk of damage.

[TICKFORD220]

If some of you guys/girls don't want to pre fill your oil filters before fitting them that's up to you,knock yourself out

[arronm]

You dont need to prefill, just crank engine till + oil pressure then start.

[aussiblue]

I think everyone who has taken an interest in this thread has learnt something, including myself if we are all honest with ourselves.

Yes; I have learnt a lot both from members posts and researching the issue, but I'm still a little bit left wondering.

I would like to know for example the veracity of the claims on some of those links I provided that there is no requirement or specification requiring new oil to free of solid contaminants. I'd like to think that was a past situation and that the oil industry has moved on from that situation or at least some high end oil retailers were guaranteeing contaminant free oils.

I expect with manufacturing of nearly all oil filters seemingly now going to the cheapest Asian manufacturer, in the case of filters at least, the likelihood of them having solid (and possibly mostly metal) contaminants has probably increased. Hmm, I wonder if much of the retail packs of oil is now also packed, and perhaps in some case even refined overseas at the cheapest possible contracted cost with perhaps the same contamination risks.

[smoo]

I’ve worked in two truck fleets.

One running 12 litre Volvo and Cats. No one pre filled. These rigs had done 700k - 1.1 mil by the time I left with no dramas.

Current fleet 15 litre Cummins and 16 litre Volvo and everyone pre fills.
Volvo are currently up to 1.4 million k with one bearing roll and no worries with the crank.
Cummins up to 2 million on original crank before the engine is scrapped as not worth spending $20-30k on rebuilding an old block.

No worries either way.

[aussiblue]

Promised link, Jaguar oil filter with anti-siphon valve combined with anti drain back valve, though the two different colours of silicone suggests they might still be separable:

[aussiblue]

In any event, I expect we'll all be looking closer at our oil filter and wondering just a little next time we change the oil and filter.

[aussiblue]

So Smoo do know you if the Cummins manuals really say what is claimed here or is it a workshop myth: http://beamalarm.com/Documents/prefi...tructions.html and regardless do fill at the centre hole or the perimeter holes?

[Maka]

For debate purposes only lol - why does a (older) engine momentarily knock after a fresh oil change with a unfilled/unprimed oil filter yet no noise when prefilled next time through the centre then lol?

Isnt that momentary knock from a lack of oil pressure due to a air lock in the unprefilled filter?

I just read that over a car motors lifespan 6 - 7000 US miles are forfeited due to dry start ups, ok perhaps on a new motor with a little filter its semantics, imo on older engines with bigger filters that have over say 200,000km, its a different story imo.

The size of the filter has a bearing lol on whether its practical / worth prefilling too, a smaller filter will fill up quicker then oil pressure is up quicker, a z9 for example is a lot bigger & takes longer to fill & longer to achieve full oil pressure.

On a older pre *BA Falcon motor that momentary knock could go on for a uncomfortable 4 or 5 seconds till full oil pressure is achieved, so to avoid the knock cringe why not prefill your filter in this circumstance?

*Did all Barra's use non z9 smaller filters?

cheers, Maka

[aussiblue]

Founds this Cummins doc online https://www.cumminsfiltration.com/in...es/PD10021.pdf which says :

Installation Tips
■ Installation instructions are provided on the filter
■ Always pre-fill with oil on the “dirty” side of the filter (on the outer side of the filter)
■ Always clean and oil the gasket before installation, do NOT use grease
■ After installing a new filter, start the engine and wait for a few minutes, then check for leaks

[smoo]

Originally Posted by aussiblue

So Smoo do know you if the Cummins manuals really say what is claimed here or is it a workshop myth: http://beamalarm.com/Documents/prefi...tructions.html and regardless do fill at the centre hole or the perimeter holes?

Yes genuine Cummins workshop manual states to fill the filter.
The guys fill them up by the centre/outlet.
They take about 2.5 litres.

We rebuild these things in the dirt/dust. Some slight contamination if any from a 1000l ibc into the filter on a service hasn’t been an issue.

[commodorenutt]

Originally Posted by Maka

For debate purposes only lol - why does a (older) engine momentarily knock after a fresh oil change with a unfilled/unprimed oil filter yet no noise when prefilled next time through the centre then lol?

Isnt that momentary knock from a lack of oil pressure due to a air lock in the unprefilled filter?

I just read that over a car motors lifespan 6 - 7000 US miles are forfeited due to dry start ups, ok perhaps on a new motor with a little filter its semantics, imo on older engines with bigger filters that have over say 200,000km, its a different story imo.

The size of the filter has a bearing lol on whether its practical / worth prefilling too, a smaller filter will fill up quicker then oil pressure is up quicker, a z9 for example is a lot bigger & takes longer to fill & longer to achieve full oil pressure.

This is exactly why Holden recommended the smaller filters (both diameter & length) on the later EFI 5L motors - which are backward compatible with the red/blue/black 6s & V8s too. Combined with the anti-drainback valve, the smaller volume in the canister stopped start-up knock (and lifter rattle) on older engines.

[Mechan1k]

Originally Posted by Maka

For debate purposes only lol - why does a (older) engine momentarily knock after a fresh oil change with a unfilled/unprimed oil filter yet no noise when prefilled next time through the centre then lol?

Isnt that momentary knock from a lack of oil pressure due to a air lock in the unprefilled filter?

I just read that over a car motors lifespan 6 - 7000 US miles are forfeited due to dry start ups, ok perhaps on a new motor with a little filter its semantics, imo on older engines with bigger filters that have over say 200,000km, its a different story imo.

The size of the filter has a bearing lol on whether its practical / worth prefilling too, a smaller filter will fill up quicker then oil pressure is up quicker, a z9 for example is a lot bigger & takes longer to fill & longer to achieve full oil pressure.

On a older pre *BA Falcon motor that momentary knock could go on for a uncomfortable 4 or 5 seconds till full oil pressure is achieved, so to avoid the knock cringe why not prefill your filter in this circumstance?

*Did all Barra's use non z9 smaller filters?

cheers, Maka

Z516 on BF and SY-onwards
B-series Boss engines use the Z516 also.

[BENT_8]

Lets be realistic here, if you service your Barra i6 to factory specs of every 15,000k's and dont prefill causing it to run without oil pressure for 3 seconds each time, it equates to 60 seconds of run time over 300,000k's of service life.

Now consider that the engine will still have residual oil on each of those 20 occasions of 3 second runs.

If you all of a sudden lost oil pressure for whatever reason during everyday driving it would take all of those 60 seconds for you to realise and shut it down.

I doubt running it for those 60 seconds with residual oil present would result in any serious engne wear so its a non issue for 3 seconds per service over 300,000kms.
You certainly wouldn't need a rebuild or notice any additional wear.

[Mechan1k]

FIL's work ute ... gets serviced every so often .. and there were times that it may have missed services in between.

500,000km on it ... oil filter gets a smear of new oil on the seal .... and screwed on ... no pre-filling ... runs smooth ... no knocking on start up. Never had an issue on any of the cars I have owned either.

Oh ... it still has the factory trans heat exchanger on it as well .... and just had its' first auto service not long ago.

seems to still keep running (unlike all the reports from internet experts saying that this is impossible).

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

Oh ... it still has the factory trans heat exchanger on it as well .... and just had its' first auto service not long ago.

seems to still keep running (unlike all the reports from internet experts saying that this is impossible).

To be fair, there are plenty of horror stories to support the notion of eliminating the possibility of transmission contamination by fitting an aftermarket trans cooler, i cant say i've ever heard of an everyday petrol engine detonating due to not prefilling the oil filter.

My Mechanic did tell me about one of his customers who decided to change the oil on his Ranger and left it draining for too long, couldn't get oil pressure at startup and spun a bearing, cost something like 5k for a new crank and rebuild from memory.

[smoo]

Originally Posted by Mechan1k

seems to still keep running (unlike all the reports from internet experts saying that this is impossible).

Sounds about right. My first AU I owned back in '06 was an ex cab and had done 470k when I sold it, trans hadn't been out of it and it didn't have an external cooler.
Current AU wagon is just under 350k without any trans work, and I fitted the cooler when I bought it at 320k.
Too many people take worst case situation as the norm.


My previous post playing down the possibility of contamination causing engine damage from unopened oil containers made me browse thru old pics and the third world conditions Ive rebuilt engines in. Obviously they are cleaned as much as possible before assembly but still far from ideal. Despite this most rebuilds are averaging 3/4 the life of a new crate engine. Some blokes are too anal and all is does is give em grey hairs.