Leathermans tool banned at mine site

[The G6ET Spot]

heaven help us if a butcher cuts his hand.

[mistermxer]

Originally Posted by mondo_broady

@ Brent, that's a pretty simplistic way of looking at things mate.

I might moan about it (OH&S), but in my industry, Underground Coal Mining, things are 1000 times safer now than when i started in the mid-80's. For that, I am thankful...

yea... wouldn't light a cigaret U/G now aye... dad tells me people used to smoke underground where he works... no way would you do that now

[XD 351 Ute]

Originally Posted by Brent

That's it in a nutshell folks, and end result is that the job takes you longer, costs your boss more, your industry becomes just that little bit less competitive on the world economic stage, but then Davo has a reduced chance of cutting off his finger, doesn't he?

The cost of WH&S is probably something that is far more than most people realise.

Humans are humans, there will always be accidents to a degree, look at the way generations learn from generations.
I never thought I'd ever say this, but one of the best ways to reduce & hopefully eliminate injury, is to use your melon, take 5 and think about the job at hand.

It's probably the most useful bit of WH&S stuff they've actually come up with.
Come to think of it we did use the exact same methodology years ago when I first started work as an apprentice.
If you didn't think about what you were doing and stuffed up, you got a kick up the backside, and then you were asked if you were alright....

Maybe that's where we need to go back to, and get rid of all this "I'll sue you" crap...

But still keep the big stick out for those on both sides of the fence that take shortcuts and endanger lives unnecessarily.

Ed

[GT 160]

But did he do a Take 5 ?

Because we all know you can't get hurt when you fill out a piece of paper.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by mondo_broady

@ Brent, that's a pretty simplistic way of looking at things mate.

I might moan about it (OH&S), but in my industry, Underground Coal Mining, things are 1000 times safer now than when i started in the mid-80's. For that, I am thankful...

Let's keep this in context. The clear angle of this thread was everyone's general frustration with OH&S overkill. The removal of the expectation of personal responsibility for your actions, e.g. with the leatherman issue. I totally disagree with, and actually take offence to any suggestion that I'm having a tilt at the improvements in safety which have saved dozens of lives in your particular industry.

Like everything in life there's a balance, and sometimes that balance is lost, often in the form of over-regulation. The examples given in the thread so far are a good case in point.

[AndrewR_AUII]

a) Is there a better tool than a knife for the job ??
b) Provide them with that tool.

This is supposed to be done in consultation with HSR's and Safety committees (in SA, Section 34 (1)). Wondering if this was actually done. People doing the work often have some pretty good ideas on how to improve things. If they can have some 'ownership' you can end up with a better solution that people will actually use.

G6ET: I have seen butchers wearing chain mail gloves.

I like the 'Take 5 approach'...it (should) get people to THINK

[rancidpunx]

I hate OH&S stuff, but can understand why its there. As someone already stated it all comes down to insurance. Companies need to be insured and the Insurance mobs make them jump through hoops to get cover.
I used to work for a high profile furniture and electrical company as their warehouse manager so went through all the bloody training courses and "toolbox" talks. It used to drive me insane. I was not allowed to change a lightbulb in my office as it required a ladder and a sparky to do it.
Someone also mentions "Hot Works" permits. Thats an idea out of the states within insurance companies. As the manager of an offsite warehouse for a couple of retail stores I could sign off on Hot Works but still needed my boss to sign off on it to which meant someone getting in a car to get the signature. The insurance companies pushing the permits require that a member of staff drop what they are doing for 20mins at the being of the process to monitor if theres a fire and then monitor the area for 2hrs afterwards to make sure theres no fire. I personally had to stand on the roof for 4hrs once (in my orange hi-vis and harness) as a Fridgy fixed the aircon and needed to solder some wire.

There can be no accidents anymore, only incidents in which somebody must be to blame.

But to lighten the mood heres some of the cleverest workers out there,

[Pis-ton broke]

Originally Posted by sexyxe

I am awe struck at the lunacy and idiocy of OH&S.

Best part of where I work, is the people who make the rules never use the equipment and dont understand it anyway.

I was at this big chemical plant and the OHS guy was a tool, his last idea was a jewery policy. He had no idea how dangerous a 9" grinder was and it was ok for an operater (non tradesman) to use one. But it was funny as ***** when a operator got smacked in the head cause his foringe order took off in the drill press and hit him in the head with it, he was ok.

i,m at a new place now, anything goes, no saftey rules ,just common sense and no one has got hurt.

But don,t get me wrong, i,m a saftey guy big time, its just that the ohs policys and rules at some places really are over the top.

And a new tradesman might learn to relie on the OH suppurviser for saftey, is a total false sense of security. learn to think saftey for your self is very important, but that is been taken away. like we are all cotton wool babies, what a joke it has become. Common sense isn,t taught, just a load of stupid rules and paper work , and paperwork at one place to use a drill press in the work shop, FTW?

And when there is a bad accident, lets play pass the buck. I,ve had a couple of engineers load me up with there problems. So I play by the rules, and nothing comes back on you. Save your ***.

you get those big chemical companys (like the one on tv now) blurt out saftey, saftey. What a big load of bulldust, bloody hypocrites.

[Franco Cozzo]

Safety rules are very lax in my workshop compared to Honda, the boss and supervisors generally doesn't give a **** as long as the job gets done, if worksafe came into our workshop we'd be royally screwed.

[XD 351 Ute]

Originally Posted by rancidpunx

There can be no accidents anymore, only incidents in which somebody must be to blame.

And that sir, is the quote of the thread.

Ed

[mistermxer]

i do jobstart cards for every job i do...

they all say the same thing (albeit a few that have the odd extra...)

"slips trips falls" - house keeping, watching footing....

every time... i write it without thinking now... how does this help me ?

[Stefan]

The problem is not the "OHS Idiot" but the legislation that blames the Supervisor, Manager or Owner/Director for not providing a safe workplace whether they are to blame or not.

So Supervisors and managers do what they can to protect them selves from prosecution and lawsuits.

It seems like in every aspect of our lives we are unable accept blame for our own actions, so we must sue the Directors of a company if things go pear shaped but then also winge when they impose onerous safety precautions.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

[MNM96]

Accidents, we need them! Natures way of eradicating idiots!

From a Behavioural Safety Nerd!

[J.C.]

Originally Posted by MNM96

Accidents, we need them! Natures way of eradicating idiots!

The lawyers etc have taken that away from Mothernature. Now we protect and breed them instead.

[NAK302]

Originally Posted by fitzwa

But did he do a Take 5 ?

Because we all know you can't get hurt when you fill out a piece of paper.

BMA mate? the ultimate company for "dumbing down"

[NAK302]

Originally Posted by Stefan

The problem is not the "OHS Idiot" but the legislation that blames the Supervisor, Manager or Owner/Director for not providing a safe workplace whether they are to blame or not.

So Supervisors and managers do what they can to protect them selves from prosecution and lawsuits.

It seems like in every aspect of our lives we are unable accept blame for our own actions, so we must sue the Directors of a company if things go pear shaped but then also winge when they impose onerous safety precautions.

Damned if you do and damned if you don't.

Key Performance Indicators have a huge say with pay rises at managerial level. you really don't think a CEO is really concerned with some clown slicing his hand open with a knife at a personal level? he'd be more interested in the LTI that will affect his KPI at his next performance review.

[mondo_broady]

Originally Posted by Brent

Let's keep this in context. The clear angle of this thread was everyone's general frustration with OH&S overkill. The removal of the expectation of personal responsibility for your actions, e.g. with the leatherman issue. I totally disagree with, and actually take offence to any suggestion that I'm having a tilt at the improvements in safety which have saved dozens of lives in your particular industry.

Like everything in life there's a balance, and sometimes that balance is lost, often in the form of over-regulation. The examples given in the thread so far are a good case in point.

i stand by my comment. actually the same comment could apply to a lot of the posters in this thread. it's easy for people to make generalised comments about nanny states etc... but unfortunately history shows it's necessary.
whilst i too dislike this lowest common denominator approach of implementing OH&S in the workplace, there's no denying it is getting results. accident and injury statistics in industry over the past few decades prove it.

as for "the removal of expectation of personal responsibility", that's just plain wrong. I am far more responsible for my own safety now, both in attitude and practice, than i was when i started out in the industry.

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by Pis-ton broke

He had no idea how dangerous a 9" grinder was and it was ok for an operater (non tradesman) to use one.

Since when do you have to be a tradesman to operate a 9" grinder...??? i know they can be a dangerous tool in the hands of someone not aware of them, and in some cases there use has been banned, but needing to be a tradesman to use one sounds like bs.....

[NAK302]

Originally Posted by mondo_broady

i stand by my comment. actually the same comment could apply to a lot of the posters in this thread. it's easy for people to make generalised comments about nanny states etc... but unfortunately history shows it's necessary.
whilst i too dislike this lowest common denominator approach of implementing OH&S in the workplace, there's no denying it is getting results. accident and injury statistics in industry over the past few decades prove it.

as for "the removal of expectation of personal responsibility", that's just plain wrong. I am far more responsible for my own safety now, both in attitude and practice, than i was when i started out in the industry.

if you're suggesting statistics are proof then i'd suggest you are wrong. statistics can be manipulated anyway you choose to produce the result you want, especially when performance is being reviewed.
a lot of "minor" accidents are quite well hidden.

[Brent]

Originally Posted by mondo_broady

i stand by my comment. actually the same comment could apply to a lot of the posters in this thread. it's easy for people to make generalised comments about nanny states etc... but unfortunately history shows it's necessary.
whilst i too dislike this lowest common denominator approach of implementing OH&S in the workplace, there's no denying it is getting results. accident and injury statistics in industry over the past few decades prove it.

as for "the removal of expectation of personal responsibility", that's just plain wrong. I am far more responsible for my own safety now, both in attitude and practice, than i was when i started out in the industry.

You've clearly never run a business, had to open your cheque book to pay Workcover costs, or had to challenge grossly exaggerated claims in court.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by GT-0733

Key Performance Indicators have a huge say with pay rises at managerial level. you really don't think a CEO is really concerned with some clown slicing his hand open with a knife at a personal level? he'd be more interested in the LTI that will affect his KPI at his next performance review.

UMM sorry I am a Project Manager for a Large Multi-National Building / Mining Contractor and guarantee you an LTI is of lesser concern to me than going to jail, receiving a criminal record or getting a fine (personally, not the company) because I did not take reasonable measures to provide a safe worplace. If someone is killed or permanently disabled, I CAN be criminally prosecuted.

If it was only about the bottom line on a project I guranatee it would be cheaper and more productive to scrap all safety inititives. How much money and time would be saved every day on a building site if there are no safety officers, no handrails, no safety barricades, no fall protection, no PPE, no need for scaffold, testing or inspection of any plant or equipment, no electrical testing or tagging, no work stoppages due to unsafe work practices, no safety training, no need for EWPs, no inductions, no prestarts, no toolbox talks, no work method statements, no risk assessments, no fatigue management, no ventilation, no fire drills or evacution drills, no jersey barriers.

[Thornie]

Originally Posted by fitzwa

But did he do a Take 5 ?

Because we all know you can't get hurt when you fill out a piece of paper.

oh Jesus take 5 we have them at work, how I yearn to tell the bosses that if I need to read a sheet of paper every day to do my job without getting hurt i shouldnt be in the job.

[tweeked]

Originally Posted by mondo_broady

i stand by my comment. actually the same comment could apply to a lot of the posters in this thread. it's easy for people to make generalised comments about nanny states etc... but unfortunately history shows it's necessary.
whilst i too dislike this lowest common denominator approach of implementing OH&S in the workplace, there's no denying it is getting results. accident and injury statistics in industry over the past few decades prove it.

as for "the removal of expectation of personal responsibility", that's just plain wrong. I am far more responsible for my own safety now, both in attitude and practice, than i was when i started out in the industry.

And statistics will also show that we will have little manufacturing at all in the years to come due to becoming more and more uncompetitive.

All for safety, but since OHS has become such a big part of business, and you now are getting people coming through this profession that have never held a "REAL" job (ie straight out of uni knowing it all) the unrealistic, unworkable and costly demands on business are just getting worse and worse.

[NAK302]

Originally Posted by Stefan

UMM sorry I am a Project Manager for a Large Multi-National Building / Mining Contractor and guarantee you an LTI is of lesser concern to me than going to jail, receiving a criminal record or getting a fine (personally, not the company) because I did not take reasonable measures to provide a safe worplace. If someone is killed or permanently disabled, I CAN be criminally prosecuted.

If it was only about the bottom line on a project I guranatee it would be cheaper and more productive to scrap all safety inititives. How much money and time would be saved every day on a building site if there are no safety officers, no handrails, no safety barricades, no fall protection, no PPE, no need for scaffold, testing or inspection of any plant or equipment, no electrical testing or tagging, no work stoppages due to unsafe work practices, no safety training, no need for EWPs, no inductions, no prestarts, no toolbox talks, no work method statements, no risk assessments, no fatigue management, no ventilation, no fire drills or evacution drills, no jersey barriers.

so you're admitting all these safety rules, policies etc set out by Govco and companies are for the interests of keeping CEO's out of court rooms if something goes wrong, rather than logically letting people go about their work?

i've seen many, many safety inititives put in place by OH&S officers that have produced more 2nd teir safety issues than the first issue, and still receive end of year bonuses.

i think we can agree, we don't see the issues at the same levels as our occupations would be at different ends of the business' we work for.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by GT-0733

so you're admitting all these safety rules, policies etc set out by Govco and companies are for the interests of keeping CEO's out of court rooms if something goes wrong, rather than logically letting people go about their work?

No Government provide legislation that empowers WorkCover to prosecute employers for not providing a safe work place, nothing else.

Employers are required to provide a safe work place or they are in breach of the above legislation abnd do that via Company Safety Policies.

I'm required to keep records of injuries and even near misses, if I have say 3 or 4 near misses related to ladders and then someone is killed using a ladder it is easy to prosecute ME, my foreman and the Directors of the company because we were aware of the earlier near misses and did not act and now someone has been killed. We would be deemed criminally negligent.

So after the first few near misses I say no more ladders on my site, everyone now needs to use a mobile scaffold with fall protection. I don't do it just to **** people off.

[Pis-ton broke]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

Since when do you have to be a tradesman to operate a 9" grinder...??? i know they can be a dangerous tool in the hands of someone not aware of them, and in some cases there use has been banned, but needing to be a tradesman to use one sounds like bs.....

yes your right , it was a example of dopey rules that we worked under. We weren,t allowed to wear a wrist watch cause of the jewllery rule , but it was ok for an person of UNKNOWN ABILITY to use a 9" grinder, drill press, and lathe. That is very dangours and reflects poorly on the saftey officer and bosses. The idiots running the show. And it was a big international company, you would think that they could do better managment.

[Stefan]

Originally Posted by Pis-ton broke

but it was ok for an person of UNKNOWN ABILITY to use a 9" grinder, drill press, and lathe. That is very dangours and reflects poorly on the saftey officer and bosses. The idiots running the show. And it was a big international company, you would think that they could do better managment.

So how do you propose to implement this type of competency on a large building site? Do we test each person before they are allowed to work? What qualifications do I need to test someone's competency in the use of power tools that are available to buy by anyone at the local hardware store?

Do I start kicking people off site because I think they are not competent?

Easy to call bosses idiots on a forum, but harder to actually present a workable solution.

[noosacuda]

"Ain't no cure for stupidity"
I am so pleased to be self employed- no OH & S to deal with! Only sharp pointy things,saw blades,mini oxy propane torch, sulphric acid, cyanide gold plating, no one to blame for hurting my self except me! Worst thing is stupid customers!

[Pis-ton broke]

Originally Posted by Stefan

So how do you propose to implement this type of competency on a large building site? Do we test each person before they are allowed to work? What qualifications do I need to test someone's competency in the use of power tools that are available to buy by anyone at the local hardware store?

Do I start kicking people off site because I think they are not competent?

Easy to call bosses idiots on a forum, but harder to actually present a workable solution.

First, my example explanid thhe person was an operator (of unknown skills and ability) and not a tradesman of any kind. And in a workshop away from there workstation doing foringe orders, it happened all the time and the bosses turned a blind eye.

about your example, this why we have trades , a bricklayer lays bricks etc. and a boilermaker or welder does metal work and he can use a grinder without question. But you get those odd jobs that need doing, maybe cutting off some concrete starter bars or something. IMO at the foreman level he can deligate a handy guy (as opposed to inexperenced one) to do this job.if the job is a bit tricky get a boilermaker or welder to do it. The right person for the job. is this a workable solution?
don,t you think that a person in his trade using his appropreiate tradesmans power tools should know how to use them safley, A, yes they should. there is onlly so much you can do. You don,t test, you just explect a trademan on a site can use a drill or what ever it is.

[mistermxer]

Originally Posted by DJR-351

Since when do you have to be a tradesman to operate a 9" grinder...??? i know they can be a dangerous tool in the hands of someone not aware of them, and in some cases there use has been banned, but needing to be a tradesman to use one sounds like bs.....

spot on. i have my chainsaw ticket, only ever used a chainsaw when i was doing the ticket, made two cuts through a bit of 4" - 6" thick rotted pine... haven't used one since. but does this make me a better chainsaw operator then my dad who does not have a ticket and has used a chainsaw all his life ??

the only reason i have the ticket it cause i managed to get it through work.