Privatisation of electricity in Vic.

[cheap]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Sorry fella, dont understand your question completely but will take a stab in the dark!

as you know i'm a cafe latte sipping urban progressive socialist hippie architect scum. I live in Central Adelaide with a growing number of like minded people. I think we just re-elected a liberal rep in our recent elections, so perhaps the city dweller is not just like me? I voted green! which says something about the following.
Nobody I know struggles with the cost implication of a government policy which aims to reduce our use of electricity and or subsidise our movement to renewables in the form of solar, which 30% of our states power comes from. Though before we put solar on we used $138 of electricity in the quarter, 2 person home with all the mod cons, we even have an electric fridge. Now I export 3 times as much power as we use after our modest solar installation.
Now I believe there are people who have significantly higher electricity bills. Any social policy that makes power cost to the consumer match the real cost to the environment is OK with me. What it may do is force people to use less of it which in turn reduces their emissions which in turn slows down the pumping of CO2 into our atmosphere which in turn increases my fellow citizens viability on this planet.
As you know I believe in man impacted climate change, that our additional CO2 emissions have tipped the balance. Reducing this is amongst the many other benefits I believe a RET have socially, environmentally and even economically.
To date there has been an $8 Billion investment in solar by mums and dads in over 1 million homes in Australia employing 14-18000 people as an industry.
SA has one of the highest uptakes of solar due to a government with foresight, as mentioned 30% of our power comes from solar, the dumping of the RET which may have a 6% 'impost' on power prices will effectively shut a large and growing industry, will affect the millions of already financially committed to or with solar and an ever growing employment base.
As with other tech power generators and transmission companies we all subsidise their operations, which is no different to everyone subsidising solar, healthcare, police or government.

I ask in return, how can your fellow citizens not support the RET+ and their own viability on this planet!

JP

Too much information, may I suggest you get out and about more. Staying within the confines on inner city Adelaide mingling with like minded people, you know there is more to life.

Alas my sloppy typing and auto correct turned what would have been a simple answer into an epic rant

Now the original question was supposed to read:

How do the people from your area, have visability of the cost impost that RET/CO2 has bought to them?

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by cheap

Too much information, may I suggest you get out and about more. Staying within the confines on inner city Adelaide mingling with like minded people, you know there is more to life.

Alas my sloppy typing and auto correct turned what would have been a simple answer into an epic rant

Now the original question was supposed to read:

How do the people from your area, have visability of the cost impost that RET/CO2 has bought to them?

You know I have traveled the world been to over 50 countries so I don't need to get out anymore to solidify my beliefs.

Also not a rant, I answered what I understood was your question, if the length challenged your stamina I am sorry as it is a complex issue with multiple facets to be considered..
In Adelaide, which is in South Australia...we have newspapers, television, radio and the internet to learn about the RET, what do you have in queensland?. And there is certainly a lot more visibility of the 'subsidising' of solar and renewables than big coal and gas. And it's still a growing industry despite this knowledge! Perhaps solar has struck a chord with the community, energy independence, affordable paybacks and much lower Co2 production per KWh
We also have just started a local branch/arm/group of 'solar citizens' to start to lobby local MP's about the importance and social agenda of the solar community, already met with both major parties prior to the election to discuss our community.
This may horrify you and many who hate alternative solutions, and this fills me with joy, because the more fear big power and its supporters have the closer we are to a moral victory.

JP

[xtremerus]

30% of SA power is not from solar.

I think you are confusing that with the 28% of the homes that have solar. Not the same thing.

[ute83]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

You know I have traveled the world been to over 50 countries so I don't need to get out anymore to solidify my beliefs.

Also not a rant, I answered what I understood was your question, if the length challenged your stamina I am sorry as it is a complex issue with multiple facets to be considered..
In Adelaide, which is in South Australia...we have newspapers, television, radio and the internet to learn about the RET, what do you have in queensland?. And there is certainly a lot more visibility of the 'subsidising' of solar and renewables than big coal and gas. And it's still a growing industry despite this knowledge! Perhaps solar has struck a chord with the community, energy independence, affordable paybacks and much lower Co2 production per KWh
We also have just started a local branch/arm/group of 'solar citizens' to start to lobby local MP's about the importance and social agenda of the solar community, already met with both major parties prior to the election to discuss our community.
This may horrify you and many who hate alternative solutions, and this fills me with joy, because the more fear big power and its supporters have the closer we are to a moral victory.

JP

What size electric motor have you got under the bonnet of the Escort? And what about your daily?

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by ute83

What size electric motor have you got under the bonnet of the Escort? And what about your daily?

Where have I said Im a greenie, or not a hypocrite.

what I do however I save my C02 for use elsewhere, not power or food generation or unnecessary consumption.

My non towing weekly is a 1.3L buz box and does about 50-100km's a week while the bicycle does 100-200 and my shoes do another 20Km/s
the race car does about 600 Kms a year. My normal averaged fuel bill is about 600 litres a year across all three including towing, so significantly lower than normal. I accept this is still not ideal but I never claimed to be an eco warrior just informed.

JP

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by xtremerus

30% of SA power is not from solar.

I think you are confusing that with the 28% of the homes that have solar. Not the same thing.

You are right I was completely wrong.
30 percent or thereabouts comes from renewable, the other facts stand.

JP

[cheap]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

You know I have traveled the world been to over 50 countries so I don't need to get out anymore to solidify my beliefs.

Also not a rant, I answered what I understood was your question, if the length challenged your stamina I am sorry as it is a complex issue with multiple facets to be considered..
In Adelaide, which is in South Australia...we have newspapers, television, radio and the internet to learn about the RET, what do you have in queensland?. And there is certainly a lot more visibility of the 'subsidising' of solar and renewables than big coal and gas. And it's still a growing industry despite this knowledge! Perhaps solar has struck a chord with the community, energy independence, affordable paybacks and much lower Co2 production per KWh
We also have just started a local branch/arm/group of 'solar citizens' to start to lobby local MP's about the importance and social agenda of the solar community, already met with both major parties prior to the election to discuss our community.
This may horrify you and many who hate alternative solutions, and this fills me with joy, because the more fear big power and its supporters have the closer we are to a moral victory.

JP

Lets try and stick to the question, as mentioned in Queensland we receive an estimate on each of our electricity bills as to the additional cost of RET/CO2.

Do you have any information on how much additional $'s RET/CO2 is costing an average household in SA?

Can you keep your response simple, yes you do and it is $x or you have no idea.

[zipping]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Sorry fella, dont understand your question completely but will take a stab in the dark!

as you know i'm a cafe latte sipping urban progressive socialist hippie architect scum. I live in Central Adelaide with a growing number of like minded people. I think we just re-elected a liberal rep in our recent elections, so perhaps the city dweller is not just like me? I voted green! which says something about the following.
Nobody I know struggles with the cost implication of a government policy which aims to reduce our use of electricity and or subsidise our movement to renewables in the form of solar, which 30% of our states power comes from. Though before we put solar on we used $138 of electricity in the quarter, 2 person home with all the mod cons, we even have an electric fridge. Now I export 3 times as much power as we use after our modest solar installation.
Now I believe there are people who have significantly higher electricity bills. Any social policy that makes power cost to the consumer match the real cost to the environment is OK with me. What it may do is force people to use less of it which in turn reduces their emissions which in turn slows down the pumping of CO2 into our atmosphere which in turn increases my fellow citizens viability on this planet.
As you know I believe in man impacted climate change, that our additional CO2 emissions have tipped the balance. Reducing this is amongst the many other benefits I believe a RET have socially, environmentally and even economically.
To date there has been an $8 Billion investment in solar by mums and dads in over 1 million homes in Australia employing 14-18000 people as an industry.
SA has one of the highest uptakes of solar due to a government with foresight, as mentioned 30% of our power comes from solar, the dumping of the RET which may have a 6% 'impost' on power prices will effectively shut a large and growing industry, will affect the millions of already financially committed to or with solar and an ever growing employment base.
As with other tech power generators and transmission companies we all subsidise their operations, which is no different to everyone subsidising solar, healthcare, police or government.

I ask in return, how can your fellow citizens not support the RET+ and their own viability on this planet!

JP

With respect sir can you link me to the power station that has shut down because of this 8 billion investment in renewables thus saving all that supposed carbon (dioxide)

Have all the renewables you like but until they provide baseload power you still need to run coal fired stations as back up to the renewables so in effect your solar at your house is doing didley squat to reduce emissions.

But it makes you feel good and you can tell us that hey I'm doing my bit to save the earth. Its all ok though because the government (taxpayers) will subsidise my solar installation.

Meanwhile the capital spent on infrastructure required to deal with the intermittent nature of renewables is contributing to energy price rises.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by zipping

With respect sir can you link me to the power station that has shut down because of this 8 billion investment in renewables thus saving all that supposed carbon (dioxide)

Hmmmm...perhaps you should be considering the additional power stations that haven't had to be built because of additional renewable capacity that supplements the existing coal fired capacity....which was the intention.

Originally Posted by zipping

Meanwhile the capital spent on infrastructure required to deal with the intermittent nature of renewables is contributing to energy price rises.

That's a new one.

Can you prove that?

[cheap]

Originally Posted by zilo

That's a new one.

Can you prove that?

What is the point, you'll just dismiss it. There does seem to be a pattern of behavior from you, shoot down all reference material which exposes RET for what it is, you take the moral high ground and never produce a shred of supporting evidence of the "benefit" that RET/CO2 tax that has bought to the average consumer.

[jpblue1000]

[QUOTE=zipping;5047625]With respect sir can you link me to the power station that has shut down because of this 8 billion investment in renewables thus saving all that supposed carbon (dioxide)

Thats an 8 billion investment in private rooftop solar across australia.
As a result of this there have not needed to be new coal powered stations built and in fact as an example in Queensland Tarong power station closed half of its 1,400MW capacity. which was 2 turbines due to lowering demand for electricity, attributed to a rise in Solar and energy efficiency pushes.

Tarongs coal fired generators averaged little more than 60 per cent capacity, and that was only because they exported at least 10 per cent of their power to NSW. Needless to say, the state’s electricity consumers have been paying for that excess capacity in some form or another, and for the network upgrades that have accompanied it.

Now while there is a lowering trend for power consumption across the country SA has just announced a $1.5 Billion investment in another wind farm on the peninsula sized to provide power for 225,000 homes and avoid 2.5 million tonnes of C02 further adding to our 30% renewable supply.

for an interesting opinion look here re Coal future

http://www.smh.com.au/business/austr...207-2e1c3.html

Cheap I will dig out my last bill and see if it has a RET statement?

JP

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by cheap

shred of supporting evidence of the "benefit" that RET/CO2 tax that has bought to the average consumer.

You equate benefit to money saving dont you?
Without a cash saving there is no benefit?

This must be where we are diametrically opposed. Im happy to spend more money to gain non monetary benefit, social and environmental benefits are never accounted for in standard economics, quality and value are often ignored for quantity, and cost.

I personally think power in this country is too cheap and I pay the renewable premium!

JP

[cheap]

[QUOTE=jpblue1000;5047731]

Originally Posted by zipping

With respect sir can you link me to the power station that has shut down because of this 8 billion investment in renewables thus saving all that supposed carbon (dioxide)

Thats an 8 billion investment in private rooftop solar across australia.
As a result of this there have not needed to be new coal powered stations built and in fact as an example in Queensland Tarong power station closed half of its 1,400MW capacity. which was 2 turbines due to lowering demand for electricity, attributed to a rise in Solar and energy efficiency pushes.

Tarongs coal fired generators averaged little more than 60 per cent capacity, and that was only because they exported at least 10 per cent of their power to NSW. Needless to say, the state’s electricity consumers have been paying for that excess capacity in some form or another, and for the network upgrades that have accompanied it.

Now while there is a lowering trend for power consumption across the country SA has just announced a $1.5 Billion investment in another wind farm on the peninsula sized to provide power for 225,000 homes and avoid 2.5 million tonnes of C02 further adding to our 30% renewable supply.

for an interesting opinion look here re Coal future

http://www.smh.com.au/business/austr...207-2e1c3.html

Cheap I will dig out my last bill and see if it has a RET statement?

JP

I think you're twisting the situation with the Tarong power station shutting down capacity because of solar roof panels. It would be obvious that when electricity is purposely and deliberately made more expensive people will tend to use less.

In case you missed this story, bet it breaks the heart of every anti-CO2 zealot

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/quee...205-321m6.html

[cheap]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

You equate benefit to money saving dont you?
Without a cash saving there is no benefit?

This must be where we are diametrically opposed. Im happy to spend more money to gain non monetary benefit, social and environmental benefits are never accounted for in standard economics, quality and value are often ignored for quantity, and cost.

I personally think power in this country is too cheap and I pay the renewable premium!

JP

Reliable, abundant and cheap power is one of the reasons Australia has the lifestyle which many other countries want to emulate. Of coursewe have those people who worship mother earth. and this lifestyle is totally evil and everything must be done to stop it. RET does not provides reliable, abundant or cheap power.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by cheap

Reliable, abundant and cheap power is one of the reasons Australia has the lifestyle which many other countries want to emulate. Of coursewe have those people who worship mother earth. and this lifestyle is totally evil and everything must be done to stop it. RET does not provides reliable, abundant or cheap power.

Yes you are right and it's why we are the greatest polluters per capita of all nations ever! Personal responsibility?
In effect we are ****-ing in our own backyard. Australia, the Lucky dumb country!
RET is not about cheap power, its about protecting the environment in which we all live, in minimising carbon pollution, in ensuring a real price on energy production accounting for environmental and social costs.
As for evil, comfort is not evil, unnecessary and excessive comfort at the expense of poorer people and the environment is.
The west has made a Faustian pact with the future, and one whose time is almost up.

JP

[cheap]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Yes you are right and it's why we are the greatest polluters per capita of all nations ever! Personal responsibility?
In effect we are ****-ing in our own backyard. Australia, the Lucky dumb country!
RET is not about cheap power, its about protecting the environment in which we all live, in minimising carbon pollution, in ensuring a real price on energy production accounting for environmental and social costs.
As for evil, comfort is not evil, unnecessary and excessive comfort at the expense of poorer people and the environment is.
The west has made a Faustian pact with the future, and one whose time is almost up.

JP

Totally agree with you, social engineering masquerading under the guise of environmentalism. It took some of the politicians and people a little while to work it out, but luckily more and more people are onto the what it is all about.

[zipping]

Jp if you believe in that article then you should invest all your spare savings in renewables on the stock market and make a fortune.

Good luck with that

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

I personally think power in this country is too cheap and I pay the renewable premium!

JP

Our power bill for myself and my girlfriend was $190 for the qtr just gone. We just moved into a new place, we bought highly efficient appliances (7 star energy rated TV, 4 star energy rated fridge, 3 star freezer, 5 star washer), we switch everything bar the fridge freezer off at the wall when not in use and air con is used very rarely. No one is home to use power from 8 in the morning till 5 or 6 in the evening. And you think we should pay more than $190 to pretty much keep our food cold...? My friends who live in regular houses with regular paying jobs and who have kids pay upwards of $350 per quarter and they're cautious with their power use as well. Where do they get the extra money to pay extra for our 'cheap' power...?

I'll gladly quit my job right now and come work where you do as you obviously have plenty of cash to blow. Higher energy prices lead to higher prices on everything.

[ute83]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Where have I said Im a greenie, or not a hypocrite.

what I do however I save my C02 for use elsewhere, not power or food generation or unnecessary consumption.

My non towing weekly is a 1.3L buz box and does about 50-100km's a week while the bicycle does 100-200 and my shoes do another 20Km/s
the race car does about 600 Kms a year. My normal averaged fuel bill is about 600 litres a year across all three including towing, so significantly lower than normal. I accept this is still not ideal but I never claimed to be an eco warrior just informed.

JP

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Sorry fella, dont understand your question completely but will take a stab in the dark!

as you know i'm a cafe latte sipping urban progressive socialist hippie architect scum. I live in Central Adelaide with a growing number of like minded people. I think we just re-elected a liberal rep in our recent elections, so perhaps the city dweller is not just like me? I voted green! which says something about the following.
Nobody I know struggles with the cost implication of a government policy which aims to reduce our use of electricity and or subsidise our movement to renewables in the form of solar, which 30% of our states power comes from. Though before we put solar on we used $138 of electricity in the quarter, 2 person home with all the mod cons, we even have an electric fridge. Now I export 3 times as much power as we use after our modest solar installation.
Now I believe there are people who have significantly higher electricity bills. Any social policy that makes power cost to the consumer match the real cost to the environment is OK with me. What it may do is force people to use less of it which in turn reduces their emissions which in turn slows down the pumping of CO2 into our atmosphere which in turn increases my fellow citizens viability on this planet.
As you know I believe in man impacted climate change, that our additional CO2 emissions have tipped the balance. Reducing this is amongst the many other benefits I believe a RET have socially, environmentally and even economically.
To date there has been an $8 Billion investment in solar by mums and dads in over 1 million homes in Australia employing 14-18000 people as an industry.
SA has one of the highest uptakes of solar due to a government with foresight, as mentioned 30% of our power comes from solar, the dumping of the RET which may have a 6% 'impost' on power prices will effectively shut a large and growing industry, will affect the millions of already financially committed to or with solar and an ever growing employment base.
As with other tech power generators and transmission companies we all subsidise their operations, which is no different to everyone subsidising solar, healthcare, police or government.

I ask in return, how can your fellow citizens not support the RET+ and their own viability on this planet!

JP

You say you are not a greenie yet you say you voted green. With other things you have said pointing to you being a greenie. Therefore you sir amongst others are a hypocrite.

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by zipping

Jp if you believe in that article then you should invest all your spare savings in renewables on the stock market and make a fortune.

Good luck with that

And have been doing quite well too thanks!

JP

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

Our power bill for myself and my girlfriend was $190 for the qtr just gone. We just moved into a new place, we bought highly efficient appliances (7 star energy rated TV, 4 star energy rated fridge, 3 star freezer, 5 star washer), we switch everything bar the fridge freezer off at the wall when not in use and air con is used very rarely. No one is home to use power from 8 in the morning till 5 or 6 in the evening. And you think we should pay more than $190 to pretty much keep our food cold...? My friends who live in regular houses with regular paying jobs and who have kids pay upwards of $350 per quarter and they're cautious with their power use as well. Where do they get the extra money to pay extra for our 'cheap' power...?

I'll gladly quit my job right now and come work where you do as you obviously have plenty of cash to blow. Higher energy prices lead to higher prices on everything.

Yeah! Not arguing, Money is not important only life is.
I’m glad you’re not getting caught out with the $2000 a quarter electricity bills the media blames on the RET.

But I don’t particularly care if people can’t afford electricity, I can’t afford a Veyron so I haven’t bought one. I have proven I can live very well without the huge waste so many deem a necessary part of being part of our society. I spend my savings (cash and environmental savings that is) on other pursuits.

JP

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by ute83

Therefore you sir amongst others are a hypocrite.

Yes sir I am a hypocrite.

I want to loose weight yet drink too much.
I believe all men are created equal but feel Im better then most,
I believe in sharing wealth but only offer 10% of my income to charity (yes I do)
I want womens rights in 3rd world countries but wont go there to free them
I walk around smiling whern the world is going to the ****!

How sir are you not a hypocrite, and how does being ahypocrite water down my argument?

As a hypocrite you cannot believe me when I say 1+1=2 and 2x2=4?

I am having fun now, thanks!

JP

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by jpblue1000

Yeah! Not arguing, Money is not important only life is.
I’m glad you’re not getting caught out with the $2000 a quarter electricity bills the media blames on the RET.

But I don’t particularly care if people can’t afford electricity, I can’t afford a Veyron so I haven’t bought one. I have proven I can live very well without the huge waste so many deem a necessary part of being part of our society. I spend my savings (cash and environmental savings that is) on other pursuits.

JP

So you're comparing a Veyron to an essential service such as power...? Just so I'm clear as sometimes I struggle to pick up sarcasm over text, are you having a lend of me...?

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by Adamz Ghia

So you're comparing a Veyron to an essential service such as power...? Just so I'm clear as sometimes I struggle to pick up sarcasm over text, are you having a lend of me...?

Not having a lend of you, using Reductio ad absurdum to prove a point.
A veyron is an extreme personal transport device where a bicycle might do such is excessive power consumption which is not an essential service.

You have proven that you can run a household on $190 a quarter power. If the media is to be believed and they exist those spending thousands per quarter are using power excessively, wastefully deserve the big bill at the end.
The point being a user pays system means if you use you pay, if you use less you pay less and as such nobody has the right to complain about rising power costs because they have the option to use less and it can be done with no loss of lifes enjoyments.
JP

[Adamz Ghia]

I agree with you to a point, those that are paying thousands per quarter are probably doing something wrong in the way they run their house, it's something I can't fathom.

But to argue for more expensive electricity ignores that if power goes up, everything you purchase goes up with it. Where does the money come from, as you can only sacrifice so much to lower your bill...?

[xtremerus]

The only people I give credit too, that have gone solar, are the ones that installed stand-alone systems that don't rely on the grid, at all. They DO pay for the full cost on a userpay
system.

[zilo]

Originally Posted by cheap

What is the point, you'll just dismiss it. There does seem to be a pattern of behavior from you, shoot down all reference material which exposes RET for what it is, you take the moral high ground and never produce a shred of supporting evidence of the "benefit" that RET/CO2 tax that has bought to the average consumer.

Please show me your power bill that states clearly how much RET has cost you personally?


Of course you can't, ...you'll just deflect into another personal attack which to use your own words..is the pattern of behavior for you.

The benefit of RET to me is I have a discounted solar installation where I pay zero for my power and have done for 4 years now....yep...ZERO

Sounds like you are wrong just be virtue of that fact...renewable energy targets and the consequent initiatives have saved a lot of Australians a huge amount off our power bills.

And continues to do so.

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by EF_6

Just found this 20 minute clip of what really happened to Vic's power grid and why we are getting charged so much for power.......The Chinese own it all now and the profits are huge but the maintenance is pathetic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=za03H7Ig7i8

Public infrastructure should remain in public hands!

[jpblue1000]

Originally Posted by cheap

produce a shred of supporting evidence of the "benefit" that RET/CO2 tax that has bought to the average consumer.

Define the average consumer!.
Over 3 million Australians sleep under a solar instalation, this is a large number of consumers who have benefitted from the RET

My reading suggests about $15 per annum is the cost to the consumer for subsidising solar vs $80 per year spent on subsidisning more traditional power generation.

Can you prove to me how the average consumer, what/whoever that is, benefits from coal subsidies.

Jus(using my real name)tin

[cheap]

Originally Posted by zilo

Please show me your power bill that states clearly how much RET has cost you personally?


Of course you can't, ...you'll just deflect into another personal attack which to use your own words..is the pattern of behavior for you.

The benefit of RET to me is I have a discounted solar installation where I pay zero for my power and have done for 4 years now....yep...ZERO

Sounds like you are wrong just be virtue of that fact...renewable energy targets and the consequent initiatives have saved a lot of Australians a huge amount off our power bills.

And continues to do so.

An estimated cost of RET/CO2 is clearly printed on Qld electricity bills. Perhaps it hasn't occured to you but Queensland people on the forum would be laughing at your claims that it isn't and wondering how much deeper you're prepared to dig yourself into a hole.

You're on the wrong end of the argument, of course you can continue to hurl quasi-abuse at me, it is entertaining me, or you could do something which admitedly hasn't previously been very sucessful and check for youself, again the choice is yours. Ever stop to think why would I make this up, what possible material gain would there be?