The 6-Speed Showdown - Manual vs ZF Auto

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by [ NZTS50 ]

You like to Google don't you Steffo...... : 30kgs isn't much but still worth 6hp in ratio/weight. I agree, Autos out of stock form sure, but in most cases stock to warm builds manual will win all the time for the fastest times. Consistency is why many turn to Autos, plain & simple. You gotta make rounds...no point running PB in the 1st round then missing cogs every other round. At the track consistency wins.

A few years ago, manual winning over and over may have been true, but not anymore. Modern auto's can shift faster then any human, period. Doesn't matter if you're Joe Six-Pack of Michael Schumacher, it'll change gears faster then you can press a clutch pedal and move a gear-stick through a H-pattern, period. That's the beauty of efficient technology.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by Spruce

We've already established that autos are quicker down the 1/4. Its not because they have more rwkw than the equivalent manuals, as the auto simply does have a greater loss through the drivetrain.

The quicker auto times are down to the faster shifting, no loss of boost in the turbo, and simple stomp and steer application where you dont have to worry about too many or too few revs to launch.

I never said the auto has more power at the rear, I even said it would have less. What I did say is that chassis dyno figures are wildly inaccurate, especially with fancy software in some dyno's that "corrects" the power reading to a preset ideal of what should be, which totally skewers the results beyond use.

Just to highlight the difference between what we do here and other countries, on a typicall American or European operated chassis dyno, your average 270kW vehicle should put down approx 220rwkW as a manual and 215rwkW as an auto. The F6 doesn't have 270kW, it has more, but that's a different story to what we're on.

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by Spruce

We've already established that autos are quicker down the 1/4.

We did?

To 10kph they are not though. : I agree with what you're saying the ZF is a magical box indeed, any other stock Automatic would not be as fast as the manual version, well, almost any other with exception to possible Ferrari boxes etc.

Stock I still have to disagree. I still think the manual 6-speed would set a faster time.

:evil3:

[SavageF6]

Originally Posted by Steffo

The F6 doesn't have 270kW, it has more, but that's a different story to what we're on.

Yep, we can certainly agree on that :evil3:

Originally Posted by [ NZTS50 ]

Stock I still have to disagree. I still think the manual 6-speed would set a faster time.

You wouldnt say that if you'd seen me drive :

Sure I can leave the line on boost, but trying to get a consistently good launch is a real challenge.

[Dezza]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Haven't driven either but if it don't have a clutch pedal then I'm not interested. It takes all the purpose out of a drivers car IMO.

I drive my manual in bumper to bumper traffic everyday too so that is no problem for me.

Faster 1/4 mile?, well I didn't know every road has a timing tower on it :

One of the many reasons I didn't buy a XR6T. The majority are autos on the second hand market and sorry I might aswell sit in the passenger seat with an auto.

I'm with you here. Sure the ZF auto might be a brilliant transmission, but it just doesn't have the fun of a manual. I put up with an auto for nearly 5 years, and I am so glad to be back driving a manual now. Manual FTW!

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by Spruce

Yep, we can certainly agree on that :evil3:


You wouldnt say that if you'd seen me drive.

Now, if I could figure out a way to actually get a consistent launch in the manual.....

So are you bad or good? Sorry I couldn't make out which way you bat? : I know how to drive too, not being up myself or cocky but I feel I can power-shift just as good as any average Joe, but, I don't like putting my trans through that on the street just for the sake of a few tenths. Speed shifting is more than enough for street driving IMO.....on abandoned country roads or mates long driveways of course. :Reverend:

Have you practised dumping the clutch at different rpms? Feathering the throttle and/or slipping the clutch? "When you dump get the initial launch or grip then slightly ease of and gradually apply throttle?

[Steffo]

Here are the best F6 Typhoon times, stock, that I've read on this forum...

Manual - 13.262 @ 104.83mph

Auto - 12.73 @ 109mph

The best I've personally seen at the strip (WSID) are a 13.5 manual, 13.0 auto.

[Night Runner]

Stock? With factory running an auto and autos being consistent I'm surprised to see over a second off the times??? I'll believe it when I see it in print done by professionals. 1/2 a second is a lot if it's true.... whoa!

[SavageF6]

Originally Posted by [ NZTS50 ]

Have you practised dumping the clutch at different rpms? Feathering the throttle and/or slipping the clutch? "When you dump get the initial launch or grip then slightly ease of and gradually apply throttle?

When launching I dont dump at all, because I've found it to be a very fine line between bogging down, and lighting up.

So I tend to feather and slip. Having said that, I havent had a serious blast off the line in quite a while, certainly not since I got the Michelin PS2s on.

And dont worry, I bat for the good guys :

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by Spruce

Right on. When launching I dont dump at all, because I've found it to be a very fine line between bogging down, and lighting up.

So I tend to feather and slip. Having said that, I havent had a serious blast off the line in quite a while, certainly not since I got the Michelin PS2s on.

In the TS50 it's similar, I've had little wheel time but I've still had enough to get the feel. I'm going up country down two different main highways next week (12 hour road trip in one day!!!) so I'll get the odd chance in controlled conditions while I'm away. Kind of a road test I guess. I've found that slightly slipping works well. Ah, it's all fun eh mate....even when you bog it's all fun. : ;) Saw a good saying somewhere.....I'd rather suck driving a manual and have fun, than drive an auto, and fall asleep. : (or something close to that).

[SavageF6]

Originally Posted by Steffo

Here are the best F6 Typhoon times, stock, that I've read on this forum...

Manual - 13.262 @ 104.83mph

Auto - 12.73 @ 109mph

The best I've personally seen at the strip (WSID) are a 13.5 manual, 13.0 auto.

I'm pretty sure I've seen 109mph for a stock manual too (maybe on the other forum), but certainly not a 12.73. Thats some quick.

[SavageF6]

Originally Posted by [ NZTS50 ]

In the TS50 it's similar, I've had little wheel time but I've still had enough to get the feel. I'm going up country down two different main highways next week (12 hour road trip in one day!!!) so I'll get the odd chance in controlled conditions while I'm away. Kind of a road test I guess. I've found that slightly slipping works well. Ah, it's all fun eh mate....even when you bog it's all fun. : ;) Saw a good saying somewhere.....I'd rather suck driving a manual and have fun, than drive an auto, and fall asleep. : (or something close to that).

Boom-tish!

Also worth mentioning that the actual shifter in the manual makes all the difference in the world. The Ford T56 equipment shites all over the Holden units, but even then theres still a lot of room for improvement.

Rip shift, Mal Wood, Herrod - all make inexpensive aftermarket shifters that will transform day to day driving and bring those ETs down. Not to mention that a good gear oil should be considered mandatory - ie Castrol Transmax Z, certainly NOT the factory stuff.

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by Spruce

Boom-tish!

Also worth mentioning that the actual shifter in the manual makes all the difference in the world. The Ford T56 equipment shites all over the Holden units, but even then theres still a lot of room for improvement.

Rip shift, Mal Wood, Herrod - all make inexpensive aftermarket shifters that will transform day to day driving and bring those ETs down. Not to mention that a good gear oil should be considered mandatory - ie Castrol Transmax Z, certainly NOT the factory stuff.

Good point, you reminded me of something, thanks!! : I have to call the previous owner to ask what's in it....if it's factory it's being drained tomorrow! I have a Herrod Sureshift and love it...still has around 500kms of run in left too....when I first hopped in after install I struggled to find Neutral.

I have never driven a Holden so can't comment but from what I've read and heard, Ford takes the cake and the spatula. What do you use in your box or what would you recommend for a Tremac 3650? Think that's the box, still learning my Ford stuff.


EDIT - What does that fish and head actually mean or represent? Just curious.

[broken_suave]

Well, in my opinion, it really depends on the platform that it sits in. I know the topic was originally the T56 vs. ZF6 but I fear its rather been taken to a new level, with people simply stating their opinion on Manual vs. Automatic. I have not driven either of them (T56/ZF6), the newest Ford I ever drove (albeit for about 5 mins) was a 4spd Auto XR6T. So in those stakes, I refuse to give an opinion on something I essentially have no right to give. But in the Man vs. Auto level, I think you have to look at what its moving. If its a short wheelbase XR or GT then manual would be my preferance, because its a car to be enjoyed for its performance. Whereas if its a long wheelbase such as a Fairlane or LTD, then a manual hardly fits the bill IMHO. Country or City, its the car that decides the box for me.

[SavageF6]

@NZTS50,

No idea about the Fish, I never understood it lol

I use Castrol Transmax Z in my T56, but I'm not sure what should go into a 3650. Perhaps you should PM 'wbt56'? He's one of the Mal Wood guys who are Tremec specialists. Google for Mal Wood auto. They know manual.

: :

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by Spruce

No idea about the Fish, I never understood it. Pheor the phish!

I use Castrol Transmax Z in my T56, but I'm not sure what should go into a 3650. Perhaps you should PM 'wbt56'? He's one of the Mal Wood guys who are Tremec specialists. Google for Mal Wood auto. They know manual.

: :

Cheers brother. ;)

[superpursuit83]

I would say the Auto is a lot better down the strip, and my manual better on the track. But I have never driven an auto in manual mode on the track.

As mentioned the shifter plays a big part. I have the RIP shift, best mod I ever did. (And without offending anyone, I think its 100 times better than the Herrods shifter)

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by superpursuit83

As mentioned the shifter plays a big part. I have the RIP shift, best mod I ever did. (And without offending anyone, I think its 100 times better than the Herrods shifter)

No offending one here mate, I've seen the same said about all the short shifters. Just personal preference....I love mine and would probably love yours too. :

[flappist]

Originally Posted by jabba

ZF is mile faster then any manual box... Even a tricked up 4sp auto will be quicker then a manual in a straight line..... But the auto's fall over when corners come into the equation... Corners + Manual Box and the auto's are beat....

Yep I agree with jabba........Did I say that out loud?:

[data_mine]

When buying the GT-P, I was after a manual, but found my wide feet and the pedal positions just didn't work. So I got the ZF6, and must say I don't miss the manual. Sure some things you just can't do in an auto (clutch dump, neutral rev to scare pedestrians), but they're not legal anyway.

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by flappist

Yep I agree with jabba........Did I say that out loud?:

I couldn't find the post so I had to quote you : But a "tricked" manual would beat an auto down the track so it doesn't prove much. That is if he's talking in stock form vs a 4-speed auto. IMO under 11's possibly 12s modified manual or autos, autos will usually always win, but, that's not to say they are faster, just more consistent as an auto is, well, an automatic.

What I was more curious about was not round for round but what has set the fastest time in stock form, no add-ons or what not, it's not a pocket vs pocket that I wanted to find out, just in stock form from Ford which could set the fastest time or which has the faster time from a reliable source.

[superpursuit83]

I think maybe some interesting figures would come from an Age v Gearbox poll.

Originally Posted by flappist

Yep I agree with jabba........Did I say that out loud?:

hahaah still crack me up

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by superpursuit83

I think maybe some interesting figures would come from an Age v Gearbox poll.

Old = Auto and Young = Manual? I don't get what you mean but why don't you start up up? No harm in it. :

[superpursuit83]

When I was a lad, 3 speed autos, were realy quick, nearly as fast as my 2 speed powerglide. 4 speed manual is what I grew up with?. Manuals are now getting harder to find because 80% of the population go for the auto, for a reason mind you. But I could not buy a V8 without a manual. Old school I guess.

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by superpursuit83

When I was a lad, 3 speed autos, were realy quick, nearly as fast as my 2 speed powerglide. 4 speed manual is what I grew up with?. Manuals are now getting harder to find because 80% of the population go for the auto, for a reason mind you. But I could not buy a V8 without a manual. Old school I guess.

Yupe, the thing is with older autos like the TorqueFlite-727 (IMO one of the best) and the powerglide (equally as good) is they were made for performance, not comfort unlike today's automatics. Sluggish gear changes and bands having friction parties offer the occupants a smooth comfortable ride. Older trans made for big blocks and muscle car wars were neck snapping machines.

That's where I feel sorry for autos, especially the muscle car era ones is when you mention Auto, most people think: "Yuck, 1.6L Hondamatic" when you have pure master pieces like the above they get dragged down with them. My 727 chirps in all 3 gears (now 6) and can roast the tires on demand and hold a gear too. Not to mention the neck snapping shifts.

[vztrt]

The ZF is smooth but like all auto's are boring.
T56 is a pretty good box it can be clunky but that isn't the box it's Fords crappy drive line (driven 10 XR8's 6sp manuals all feel different).

Mind you I'm gonna start laughing when these ZF's are gonna need a rebuild as $7000 seems expensive to me.

[Steffo]

Originally Posted by [ NZTS50 ]

Yupe, the thing is with older autos like the TorqueFlite-727 (IMO one of the best) and the powerglide (equally as good) is they were made for performance, not comfort unlike today's automatics. Sluggish gear changes and bands having friction parties offer the occupants a smooth comfortable ride. Older trans made for big blocks and muscle car wars were neck snapping machines.

That's the thing, these new autos like the ZF 6-speed, Porsche's 5-speed tiptronic etc etc, they're not like the sluggish autos of the 80s and 90s that most people think of. They shift faster then a human can when driven hard, yet they're still seamless and smooth during normal every day driving. And they hold gear during corners, adapt to driving styles etc etc. The closest thing possible to a perfect transmission. With current technology anyway.

[Night Runner]

I like the V8 Supercars semi-manuals? Clutch but auto style shifting. That for me is a fun car. I just can't stand having no clutch, some days it's nice and in the right car good fun but for me, nothing will beat a manual.

I'm very surprised by the poll, if that's not saying something I don't know what is.
As much as I love manuals hats off to the ZF.....I'm keen for a test drive to see what the fuss is about. Wonder how much my Jeep will get for a trade in, with free dents thrown in.

:

[Night Runner]

Originally Posted by Spruce

Not to mention that a good gear oil should be considered mandatory - ie Castrol Transmax Z, certainly NOT the factory stuff.

Just got an email back mate, they've been using Castrol Transmax Z since they've had it and 1,000kms ago she had a drain and refill of it again. Awesome! Shes a silky smooth girl...... ;)

[SavageF6]

Ah, there ya go. Good stuff mate!