Micro/light car segment making no progress

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Makes me wonder why they went with the ZF, surely that would have been the most expensive option or maybe BTR/ION/DSI/Unicorn couldn't meet Ford's requirements? Or was ZF also supplying other vehicles in Ford global range (IE USA models?) and available at a good price point?

The BTR got a 20+ year run in the Falcon, you'd think that would have held weight with Ford.

I'd like to know the decision behind the ZF.

Might have something to do with their financial position. They went into bankruptcy, went through various owners etc. Not sure if that was before or after this though.

But might also have something to do with Ford owning Jaguar/Land Rover at the time and tapping into that big buying power to get the ZF's at a reasonably cheap rate? I reckon that would have had something to do with it for sure. It probably would have been the superior trans.

[Franco Cozzo]

We were talking about modifying a Kia Picanto and someone on AFF has literally done this

https://fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11477648

[BAWITHLOT]

Yep, only cost me $200 for a secondhand VC Poweron Box and still gets 4.8L/ 100 on 98!

[BAWITHLOT]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

It's still f- all considering one size up cars like the Fiesta ST, I20N etc all have about 150kw standard.

Boosting one of those little girly cars is like throwing a can of water on a bush fire. You are starting from such a low base, that it's still going to be a complete slug, and the money you are spending on top of the purchase price means you could just about buy one of the bigger size hot hatches used.

Cant agree when I only paid $16.5K drive away. Guess there is no need to drive one to have an opinion!

The ST and I20N are about the >$35K but will look at them once I can test drive a I20N if they even arrive next year!

[Franco Cozzo]

i20N does sound the goods:

https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...review-126648/

Its priced about where the old WZ Fiesta ST is, ours was $33K DA with the Mountune performance package ticked.

5 doors sucks though, its listed as a positive with the current model Fiesta ST, I don't see that as a positive its a step back.

[oldel]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Makes me wonder why they went with the ZF, surely that would have been the most expensive option or maybe BTR/ION/DSI/Unicorn couldn't meet Ford's requirements? Or was ZF also supplying other vehicles in Ford global range (IE USA models?) and available at a good price point?

The BTR got a 20+ year run in the Falcon, you'd think that would have held weight with Ford.

I'd like to know the decision behind the ZF.

It was the best gearbox, also used in Jag. Meanwhile BTR was a sh!tshow being sold on and cutting quality. DSI bought it in 2004, but that's when reliability went down and was heading towards chinese manufacture for chinese cars anyway, so there wasn't going to be any aussie production in the end, so ford cut them loose in my opinion.
Why not go for a proven brand (that isn't going to disappear soon) that they use in jags, and have a 6spd to help improve fuel economy.


ZFs 5 spds were very reliable (beaten by a couple of months by jatco as the first 5spd ever in 1990). BMW used them (mines in still going though it has a little wear after 320k kms of course). ZF was the first for a 6spd and the future looked great with them (recent 8spd is regarded as the best conventional auto in recent times.)

Going ZF was a massive move by ford that got them heaps of praise at the time so I'm glad they did.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by BAWITHLOT

Cant agree when I only paid $16.5K drive away. Guess there is no need to drive one to have an opinion!

The ST and I20N are about the >$35K but will look at them once I can test drive a I20N if they even arrive next year!

Dont bo offended, unfortunately you're just collateral in his cheap shot at me having owned a Picanto, he claims i stalk him yet makes comments like that unprovoked and thinks its cleverly concealed.
I bet he giggled like a girl typing it.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by oldel

It was the best gearbox, also used in Jag. Meanwhile BTR was a sh!tshow being sold on and cutting quality. DSI bought it in 2004, but that's when reliability went down and was heading towards chinese manufacture for chinese cars anyway, so there wasn't going to be any aussie production in the end, so ford cut them loose in my opinion.
Why not go for a proven brand (that isn't going to disappear soon) that they use in jags, and have a 6spd to help improve fuel economy.


ZFs 5 spds were very reliable (beaten by a couple of months by jatco as the first 5spd ever in 1990). BMW used them (mines in still going though it has a little wear after 320k kms of course). ZF was the first for a 6spd and the future looked great with them (recent 8spd is regarded as the best conventional auto in recent times.)

Going ZF was a massive move by ford that got them heaps of praise at the time so I'm glad they did.

There's no doubt the ZF is an excellent product, but Ford Australia isn't known for prioritising function over cost

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by oldel

It was the best gearbox, also used in Jag. Meanwhile BTR was a sh!tshow being sold on and cutting quality. DSI bought it in 2004, but that's when reliability went down and was heading towards chinese manufacture for chinese cars anyway, so there wasn't going to be any aussie production in the end, so ford cut them loose in my opinion.
Why not go for a proven brand (that isn't going to disappear soon) that they use in jags, and have a 6spd to help improve fuel economy.


ZFs 5 spds were very reliable (beaten by a couple of months by jatco as the first 5spd ever in 1990). BMW used them (mines in still going though it has a little wear after 320k kms of course). ZF was the first for a 6spd and the future looked great with them (recent 8spd is regarded as the best conventional auto in recent times.)

Going ZF was a massive move by ford that got them heaps of praise at the time so I'm glad they did.

I remember those times, so glad Ford did use it, ours is still going at 300,000 (fluid changed a few times). The ZF made a real world difference in our AWD Terry compared to SIL's 4sp AWD SX Terry. The way it shifted too, very intuitive and added a decent amount of sophistication to new Falcons/Terrys.

[Sprintey]

All this talk of factory AU turbo taxis... I'm getting all hot and bothered...

Somewhere, out there, in a chook shed...

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

All this talk of factory AU turbo taxis... I'm getting all hot and bothered...

Somewhere, out there, in a chook shed...

None of them would have survived batty’s metal crusher. They would have been scrapped like all prototype mules.

Stranger things have happened though. The EA GT351 was supposed to be crushed, but it was hidden somewhere out at the PG and “found” more than 10 yrs after it was supposedly scrap metal.

[Franco Cozzo]

Sub $20K USD segment is disappearing in the USA.

[Franco Cozzo]

City cars, as the industry defines them, are at a bit of a crossroads. Some are on the endangered species list or have already become extinct – handing a bigger slice of the shrinking city-car market to the diminutive Kia Picanto.

A few years ago, there were more than a dozen choices in the city-car class. Since then, we have seen the demise of runabout hatchbacks such as the Holden Barina, Ford Fiesta, Hyundai i20, Hyundai Accent, Suzuki Celerio, and Nissan Micra, while Honda has confirmed there will not be a Jazz sold locally after the current model reaches the end of the line.

So, what's behind the disappearing act? The models that are no longer with us effectively priced themselves out of contention.

What many buyers may not realise is that hatchbacks similar in size to the Kia Picanto cost just as much to design, engineer, and manufacture as a slightly bigger small car. However, Australian buyers don’t want to pay a premium for city cars.

The general consensus is that cars of this size and type should cost between $15,000 and $20,000 – while slightly larger small cars push into the $20,000 to $25,000 bracket.

This model Kia Picanto S manual and its direct peers – the MG 3 and Mitsubishi Mirage – are in the $15,000 to $20,000 bracket. However, they’re in the sub-$20,000 pricepoint by virtue of the fact that they are older designs.

https://www.caradvice.com.au/911196/2021-kia-picanto-s/

[kevino]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

https://www.caradvice.com.au/911196/2021-kia-picanto-s/

I will say it again. The Skoda Fabia is the best value car and driving car in this segment.
You can still get a 5 speed manual if you look hard enough.
There is a new 5 speed manual in Bris for $18490.
And there is a heap of dsg Fabia s at under 20k.

I think carsales.com have awarded best first car 4 years in a row.

But good on Kia for putting a car out at that price. I would have the Kia over a Chinese MG3.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by kevino

I will say it again. The Skoda Fabia is the best value car and driving car in this segment.
You can still get a 5 speed manual if you look hard enough.
There is a new 5 speed manual in Bris for $18490.
And there is a heap of dsg Fabia s at under 20k.

I think carsales.com have awarded best first car 4 years in a row.

But good on Kia for putting a car out at that price. I would have the Kia over a Chinese MG3.

When i bought mine my neighbour was a salesman for a dealer that sold Skoda and Suzuki amongst other brands, naturally i told him my intentions and asked what he could offer. He suggested both the Fabia and the Swift which i considered and then decided to get the Kia.
When i showed it to him he asked why i even bothered looking at the stuff he had as the Picanto GT Line at 18k was a far nicer thing than what he was selling and said he'd have made the same choice.
The Fabia is as ugly as sin and the Swift a dime a dozen but the Picanto in GT trim is attention drawing and sales reflect this.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

When i bought mine my neighbour was a salesman for a dealer that sold Skoda and Suzuki amongst other brands, naturally i told him my intentions and asked what he could offer. He suggested both the Fabia and the Swift which i considered and then decided to get the Kia.
When i showed it to him he asked why i even bothered looking at the stuff he had as the Picanto GT Line at 18k was a far nicer thing than what he was selling and said he'd have made the same choice.
The Fabia is as ugly as sin and the Swift a dime a dozen but the Picanto in GT trim is attention drawing and sales reflect this.

True on styling. But the wagon which I have doesnt look so bad.
And is the Picanto GT Line still 18K.
The Skoda would be the better drive!

[SumoDog68]

Originally Posted by asagaai

Just get a Ford Fiesta Mk 8 ST for $35,000 on the road. Drop $5,000 on bigger intercooler, Dreamscience stage 2 tune, intake manifold, get about 200kw and close to 400nm torque.

Very different cars and GR Yaris was 40k for first 1000 units.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by kevino

True on styling. But the wagon which I have doesnt look so bad.
And is the Picanto GT Line still 18K.
The Skoda would be the better drive!

$18,490da same as when i looked at mine in 2018

[anobserver]

Makes me nostalgic for the fiesta....

[kevino]

Bent 8 my 2020 Skoda Fabia Wagon manual was $18890 drive away.
Space available per dollar spent exceeds Picanto.

An observer Fiesta would have been high on my list providing right price and turbo and manual sadly no to so 3.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

There's no doubt the ZF is an excellent product, but Ford Australia isn't known for prioritising function over cost

Maybe not but remember while Ford Australia may not have always been first in bringing major tech/component upgrades into it's range when it did decide to do so it often chose the superior option compared to it's opposition.
Eg, when FoMoCo Aust. decided to go IRS, the AU IRS was considered one of the best rear setups in a passenger car, when Ford was finally able to use the LPG system in the FG that was planned and delayed due to two supplier legal battles and should have been used in the B series it chose liquid vapour injection and when it went to an A6 it chose the best available (although Ford globally did licence a version as well which the diesel Territory had fitted).

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by kevino

Space available per dollar spent exceeds Picanto.

Cool, personally id go along with the 4-500 other monthly Picanto buyers and take looks over space per dollar.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

Cool, personally id go along with the 4-500 other monthly Picanto buyers and take looks over space per dollar.

Touche.
Looks very much an opinion.
Picanto has a base model at 15990 does it not too?
Good on Kia for providing buyers value!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Fiji

Anyone take note of the new Toyota Yaris GR?

It would bolt away from the old beloved Tickford T3 5.6litre

$39999 drive away..

Only the first 1000x cars were $40KDA

They're closer to $50K now.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

Maybe not but remember while Ford Australia may not have always been first in bringing major tech/component upgrades into it's range when it did decide to do so it often chose the superior option compared to it's opposition.
Eg, when FoMoCo Aust. decided to go IRS, the AU IRS was considered one of the best rear setups in a passenger car, when Ford was finally able to use the LPG system in the FG that was planned and delayed due to two supplier legal battles and should have been used in the B series it chose liquid vapour injection and when it went to an A6 it chose the best available (although Ford globally did licence a version as well which the diesel Territory had fitted).

Holden had an IRS option in the early 1990s for the Commodore and factory fitment on the Caprice, they also beat Ford to the punch with climate control

Yes the Ford setup was superior but it was also years later, then discontinued with BA onwards with the crappy control blade setup being used.

Ford Australia's tombstone should say 'too little too late':

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Holden had an IRS option in the early 1990s for the Commodore and factory fitment on the Caprice, they also beat Ford to the punch with climate control

Yes the Ford setup was superior but it was also years later, then discontinued with BA onwards with the crappy control blade setup being used.

Ford Australia's tombstone should say 'too little too late'.

I think you sort of prove my point, Ford wasn't always first but when it did change it usually chose the superior option.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

I think you sort of prove my point, Ford wasn't always first but when it did change it usually chose the superior option.

Yeah except being 'first to market' is one of the most important marketing concepts.

But that's right Ford Australia and marketing probably shouldn't be in the same sentence together

If I think Ford Australia the first few thoughts that come to mind are 'cheap and nasty' and 'shoestring budget'.

[kevino]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Yeah except being 'first to market' is one of the most important marketing concepts.

But that's right Ford Australia and marketing probably shouldn't be in the same sentence together

If I think Ford Australia the first few thoughts that come to mind are 'cheap and nasty' and 'shoestring budget'.

At least your helping Ford out buying lots of parts for your Lt TDCI!

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Fiji

Anyone take note of the new Toyota Yaris GR?

It would bolt away from the old beloved Tickford T3 5.6litre

$39999 drive away..

Such progress. Faster than a 20 yr old heavy weight with an engine bordering on 60 yrs old. Typical hulk comparison.

[.:4:.]

Ive seen 2 reviews of the new yaris gr on australian youtube channels, and not ones where you would expect. So nugget garage and fullboost. Neither had anything bad to say. Apart from the obvious, it is small, and has a yaris badge, and its not cheap. But they appear to be quick with brakes and for once, a normal h pattern manual, not the cvt or dct like most of the hot hatches these days. If i was given one, id drive it.