Saw a Fatality Today... - Page 3

4.9 EF Futura · 24-08-2006, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 05MkIIFutura

I agree and think people on this site need to make a change and frown upon topics which reference speeding or dangerous activities. Unless the post is clearly stated to be refering to drives done on closed motorsport circuits, there should be no reference to speeds over 110km/h

Why?? you ask.

From the RTA website:

This is just more proof that there IS considerable NEGATIVE consequences of travelling at faster than signposted speeds. Speed restrictions are set by proffessionals who have weighed up the gain of extra speed against the costs of reduced vehicle performance. We might feel our cars can comfortably do an extra 20-30km/h but it has side-effects

This is a great post and i challenge any of the self-proclaimed experts here on AFF (you know who you are) who claim "speed cameras are about revenue raising" to explain why they are above the laws of physics and how they are going to lose that additional 42km/hr impact speed when a child jumps in front of them 30m down the road and they're doing 60 in a 50.

All the nonsene catch phrases like "speed doesnt kill, innatenitve drivers do"... can someone please explain how they are going to get around these laws of phyisics?

max · 24-08-2006, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4.9 EF Futura

This is a great post and i challenge any of the self-proclaimed experts here on AFF (you know who you are) who claim "speed cameras are about revenue raising" to explain why they are above the laws of physics and how they are going to lose that additional 42km/hr impact speed when a child jumps in front of them 30m down the road and they're doing 60 in a 50.

All the nonsene catch phrases like "speed doesnt kill, innatenitve drivers do"... can someone please explain how they are going to get around these laws of phyisics?

Good call!! I must show my daughter this graphic. No she's not a hoon, she's actually a good little driver... but she doesn't grasp that theory of relative velocities, and holds some contempt for speed camera set-ups.

uranium_death · 24-08-2006, 06:09 PM

You can be inattentive, but if you're driving slow, you won't be hurting anybody as badly as if you were speeding and being inattentive.

Speed is the underlying factor. Sometimes even when you are paying attention and speeding, you can skid or hit something and kablammo! Deader than a doornail.

Can we talk about something nice? Like Star Control II, or Honey Baked Ham Kettle Chips.

R0bb0 · 24-08-2006, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GCFordChic

There was a video with a few shocking scenes, the ones i remember were the bloodied interior of a smashed up car where a young guy was speeding, lost control and went off the road, clipped a ditch and the car flipped, landed upside down. Then they interviewed the family of the guy afterwards(about a month or so after i think) and that was heartwrenching..mind you i didnt watch much of it, i left the room because it wasnt long after my older brother was in a car crash and was seriously injured (spine, internally etc), his mate killed and 2 other friends had serious injuries, and i couldnt bear to watch it.
We were shown the film in yr 11/12 (umm 3-4yrs ago) when the Firies came out with an old hyundai and chopped it apart with the jaws of life. Now that was awsome in so many ways, the force those things exert is astounding...and after talking to the Firefighters who came out they told us about a few things they had to witness.
Unfortunately it occurs everyday.

The program is the 'Road Accident Awareness Program'. Im a firie in Queensland and we do it every year for the Grade Twelve students in the hopes of preventing deaths on the road.

SNB05T · 24-08-2006, 07:25 PM

not a good thing to see dude, ive seen plenty in my time driving the worst when i was on my l's 12 years ago motorbiker in the wet lost it at a roundabout in the wet, hit a pole, we found his head couple hundred metres from the smash still in the helmet. we were 3 cars behind. you never forget that

Keepleft · 24-08-2006, 07:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aeron

Mate, its not a nice thing to see. Easter Monday this year, I came across a triple fatality where a WRX had hit a Kingswood head-on. I was the 2nd car to stop for help. I ran to the WRX to see if they were ok but 2 of the 3 in the car were dead. In the other car the elderly lady driver was also dead. The images of the dead bodies in the cars still hornts me. If you need to chat, send me a PM mate. Don’t be afraid to seek help.

Good to see your out n about Aeron, keep at it.

Quote:

Max wrote: - Good call!! I must show my daughter this graphic. No she's not a hoon, she's actually a good little driver... but she doesn't grasp that theory of relative velocities, and holds some contempt for speed camera set-ups.

Max - that graphic is EVERY national and international driver manual in the world. That said, it you down load say the graphic from QLD's "Your Keys to Driving In Queensland" to say Victoria's "The Road To Solo Driving", OR WA's "Drive Safe" you'll see the metres given for a particular speed varies between the jurisdictions:-))

In effect, one stops faster in X1 state than say X2 state. I am proposing for AUS a national uniform formula!

Driver manuals are a free Pdf download in each state and territory. They are updated at least yearly. We have new NATIONAL changes due shortly arriving via the Australian Road Rules process, so the boks will again be updated to reflect those new legal changes.

uranium_death · 24-08-2006, 07:58 PM

Sorry if I appear insensitive, but pointless stories about death and crashes are a waste of time.

People like Aeron are simply recounting their horrible experiences and offering to help and I think that's really nice.

Fact is we're all here to help.

Keepleft · 24-08-2006, 08:10 PM

Yes, that is true, but it is also true that someone who has dealt with a tragic scene is also a person who has experienced the full range of emotions and effect, and is 'life-experienced' by the event, and can therefore offer a unique insight for those who have not experienced such.

Most people will go through life NOT seeing such scenes close-up and personal. ALL of you will face death at some stage in life, and I don't necessarily mean your own, some of you already have.

Aerons observations are for the record 'unique' - having regard the population at large which has not had such observation.

uranium_death · 24-08-2006, 08:17 PM

I was advocating Aeron's recounts. I think that's good.
But I don't want people simply recounting their memories for the hell of it as a means of conversation. That's my issue.

As said, we're here for each other.

Aeron · 24-08-2006, 09:09 PM

What I saw and felt that day changed my life. Before I go to sleep at night I think about the people that died. I know their names and I have the clips from the News on my PC from when it happened. Sounds a bit obsessive, I know, but I need to see it now and then. There is also something strange about seeing a dead body. You feel you need to look. I think its because I found it hard getting my head around the fact that the people I was looking at, were living moments before. Its hard to explain. When i stopped, i didnt expect anyone to be dead. I thought, Its something you see on the news, not on your way to Oran Park.

I know it sounds like a bit of a public awareness announcement, but this is the incident I came across. This is what can happen if you are careless on the roads. Please take care on the roads. This can happen to you. It would be sad for your family to have to go to an incident site like this and see how you died. Think about that…

Images taken from Network 10 News, 17-04-06

Sorry to post those pics, but it may make some people think twice about what they do on the road. If anyone has a problem, PM me and i'll remove them but you'd better have a good reason.

Mongo #650 · 24-08-2006, 10:59 PM

I am a member of a volenteer organisation that attends road collisions and other emergancies. Seeing fatalities is part of the job its not nice but we (members) are all there to support each other. The important thing is talk to someone about it, it really helped me with 'flashbacks'.
I too know the feeling of wanting to look even when you know someone is dead, you know you don't want to, but you just cant help but look, and look again.
Maybe sounds silly but talk to someone, like an Ambo or police they have all been there and know & understand what your thinking and can give you advice in ways to deal with tragedys like that. (They deal with it almost every day)

GCFordChic · 25-08-2006, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R0bb0

The program is the 'Road Accident Awareness Program'. Im a firie in Queensland and we do it every year for the Grade Twelve students in the hopes of preventing deaths on the road.

That's it! It was a really good program, although i didnt watch much of the movie part i was truly surprised at the demonstration put on with the old car. Also talking to the Firies about their personal experiences with which types of cars they have seen, which tend to be worse, the type of impacts and how different angles can make it really difficult to use the equipment. I tell you what, our whole class had so much to learn from them and held so much respect for them. The equipment made tearing apart the hyundai look like opening a tin can. What was also great was the fact that i was only in a cohort of 20 grade 12 students and they still came up and did the demo with the car at our school.

A little off topic but still related, have any of you seen the real life sort of documentary shows on late nights around 11pm on the free to air channels (in Qld at least) which follow the ambulance, police and firefighters around and they go to real accident scenes? It is great (as in really informative, not heaps of fun to watch) and i think should be on lots earlier so people see the truly bad side of what happens every day on our roads. (it might even be a Kiwi show...)

EBII Fairmont · 25-08-2006, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hrtrip

Driving back to a mates places today down Doncaster Rd, Doncaster (VIC) at about 3:30ish this afternoon (monday) and a cop car came flying past us - in a real big rush!! Anyway there was a fair bit of traffic about and it suddenly slowed up real bad. At this point i was slowing down and my mate and I were wondering what the hell was goign on - if there was a guy speeding or whatever. So we see the cop car about 50 metres down the road and there is a fairly substantial crowd of people looking down at something. We get closer only to see a VN absolutely smashed. Roof was bent in hardcore and i mean BENT in. Get a little closer and realise the guy is still in the car still sitting in his seat which was in the back seat... his seat had been pushed so far back that he was still sitting in it but in the back! A bit of blood trickling down his head, obviously knocked out if not dead. We see 2 fire trucks coming from wither direction - one on the wrong side of the road. At this stage my mate and I are like what the ******, how did this guy manage to get himself into this mess on a straight 3 lane road. I Dropped my mate back and went to have another sticky beak about 10 minutes later. By this time there were 3 fire trucks 4 police cars and 2 ambulances, the fire trucks had just put away 2 of the "jaws of life". Then i saw the unfortunate soul on a stretcher... with a white blanket over him.

Pretty terrifying stuff, not what I really wanted to see on my way home. Makes me think back to all the stupid stuff I have done in my car and realise how lucky I have been - may he rest in peace

HRT R.I.P

From what I have been tolled he got knocked out, broke both arms, and a fair few other limbs. I looked up his picture in my year book, as i was a doncaster high student, and he was in the same year level as my best mates brother. Supposably the passenger got away with cuts a bruises.

What supposably happened was that he turned out of church rd. onto doncaster rd, ripping it up and lost control half way up, smacked the gutter in the median strip and then went flying into a poll on the other side of the rd. The firebrigade were because it also supposably caught on fire, but stopped it before anything major happened.

But he had also supposably only just finished doing upgrades on the motor the week before. I don't understand why someone would go blow their money doing stuff like that, and then throwing it all away.

gozza · 25-08-2006, 02:26 PM

My gripe with the that graph that indicates the velocity thing is that what car is it based on? is it an average of hundreds of tests on different cars?

Im sure they don't factor in 245 wheels or great breakpads

GCFordChic · 25-08-2006, 02:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gozza

My gripe with the that graph that indicates the velocity thing is that what car is it based on? is it an average of hundreds of tests on different cars?

Im sure they don't factor in 245 wheels or great breakpads

Go stand on the road and get a friend to drive at you with your '245 wheels' and 'great' brakes. Recreate the speeds and record the stopping distances. Then come back and tell us how dead you were at each speed and how much the impact hurt.

It is comments like this which come from people who believe they are above statistics/physics/human error that cause so many accidents on the road...

**janddbone** · 25-08-2006, 02:46 PM

Speed cameras are revenue rasers because of the wqay way they are set up and where they are set up...

Things go pear shaped for all matter of reasons:
I was not speeding at all, doing 80 in a 100 zone,
I was not on the turps... (Salvation Army!!!)
I was not tired...

Instead of spending millions on rubbish advertising they could put some decent signs at such crap intersections, and perhaps not leave 200 year old gums at T intersections!

I just stuffed up, most things are just stuff ups, ACCIDENTS!!!!!

Bud Bud · 25-08-2006, 02:54 PM

[QUOTE=Keepleft]Max - that graphic is EVERY national and international driver manual in the world. That said, it you down load say the graphic from QLD's "Your Keys to Driving In Queensland" to say Victoria's "The Road To Solo Driving", OR WA's "Drive Safe" you'll see the metres given for a particular speed varies between the jurisdictions:-))

In effect, one stops faster in X1 state than say X2 state. I am proposing for AUS a national uniform formula!QUOTE]

I’m all for a national way of spelling and sentence delivery as well!

Nah just kidding, I know exactly what you are saying. I think that this is the biggest problem with this type of graphic (different versions) but you can’t argue with the physics and so a lot of this is true. Still the problem with this I fear is that soon (next 5 years or so) 50 k/ph will be a dirty word!

110 will come down to 100
100 will come down to 90
90 will come down to 80
80 will come down to 70
70 will come down to 60
60 will come down to 50
50 will come down to 40

After all this has already happened in some areas and is still happening now!

Then in another 5 or so year’s time after that, there will be a new graphic released and guess what,
100 will come down to 90
90 will well you know the rest, after all no one could argue that it would not be safer to introduce this rational into our Cities and Country regions now could they?

All off the back of a diminishing revenue base (as people are forced too slow down even further).

Mean while people will still be involved in accidents involving excessive speed (100 in a 60 etc.) why?

And before anybody suggest that my views are based on a bitter repeat serial offender, I would like to add, that I have not had a speeding fine from camera or laser gun in over seven years (except for the one on the Monash freeway that was not only suspect but also thrown out, that I have already mentioned previously) and I often drive under the speed limits now and I am a regular visitor and driver in Melbourne also (the almost "zero tolerance" speed camera state).

I have also been driving for over 26 years and I have never been in an accident (touch wood) or recorded a DUI either. I also started driving when there was a heavier Police presence on the road as well. (And people had more respect for the Police and other people in society generally back then)

To me it would make more sense to educate young people of the consequences of dangerous and excessive speeding than to make 5 k over the set speed limit appear more like a criminal offence!

GREGXR8 · 26-08-2006, 03:14 AM

one of the bad ones i attended was on mt dandenong about 20 years ago. a 4speed holden panel van hit a tree head on with 2 males and 1 female in the front the girl was in the middle. i wont describe it in detail but car was 4 speed! that image still maakes me shudder.

**Professor Farnsworth** · 26-08-2006, 03:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregxr8

one of the bad ones i attended was on mt dandenong about 20 years ago. a 4speed holden panel van hit a tree head on with 2 males and 1 female in the front the girl was in the middle. i wont describe it in detail but car was 4 speed! that image still maakes me shudder.

enough said... ouch..

montyv8 · 26-08-2006, 04:13 AM

I just read this entire thread, with stories of decapitated motorcyclists, mashed skulls from windscreen penetrations, but gregxr8, thats just f.ucked up. reading that made me shudder :(

GREGXR8 · 26-08-2006, 04:18 AM

i gave up driving smash trucks about ten years ago and i don't miss it at all. now i'm driving a b double picking up holden parts from the suppliers. much less stressfull.

Trevor 57 · 26-08-2006, 07:58 AM

Holden Parts!!!! Bloody hell that would be stressful!!!! - LOL

luke · 26-08-2006, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GCFordChic

Go stand on the road and get a friend to drive at you with your '245 wheels' and 'great' brakes. Recreate the speeds and record the stopping distances. Then come back and tell us how dead you were at each speed and how much the impact hurt.

It is comments like this which come from people who believe they are above statistics/physics/human error that cause so many accidents on the road...

I totally agree with you, so don't get me wrong... But it can never hurt to upgrade the stopping power of your vehicle, as long as you don't rely on it or push your vehicle harder accordingly, thinking you are "safer", or "above statistics".

Luke.

Ringo · 28-08-2006, 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gregxr8

i gave up driving smash trucks about ten years ago and i don't miss it at all. now i'm driving a b double picking up holden parts from the suppliers. much less stressfull.

That's a secure job you have got there GregXR8 - you will never be out of work.

05MkIIFutura · 01-09-2006, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GCFordChic

It is comments like this which come from people who believe they are above statistics/physics/human error that cause so many accidents on the road...

Here, here. I appluade you for that statement and agree 110%

I am also pleased to see a thread where people have made a change in attitude to looking down on reckless behaviour or attitudes. This will be agood one to reference on other threads

05MkIIFutura · 01-09-2006, 09:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

60 will come down to 50

I am a firm supporter of 40-50km/h on suburban streets. It only adds marginally to your trip time, and makes travel alot safer in areas where there are many more hazards than out in the open and where distances are not large

GCFordChic · 01-09-2006, 12:15 PM

The thing is that when statements are made like the earlier one i commented on, the people making them believe they are 'above' statistics, when they dont understand statistics or calculating averages etc.

I would assume in a test like the one used to produce that display of the stopping distances, the results of the different cars used would probably take the shape of a bell curve. Meaning that the average result is better than half the recorded results. HALF of the cars tested would come up just below or well below the average that would be reported as 'stopping distance'.

Even though getting better brakes and tyres would increase the individual performance of the individual car (and i certainly encourage everyone to do so, particularly if you are also increasing performance), that person still has no way of knowing (just by looking at that picture) if their type of car was tested and recorded a 'below average' result to start with, and the addition of better brakes etc, only brings them up to the average.

Take as an example....
(based on the picture which shows at speed 50km/hr, stopping distance 29m)
The mean (average) stopping distance may be 29m, but say (for the sake of this explanation) the standard deviation is (1.5m)

then that would mean approximately

34% of the cars tested had a stopping distance of 29-30.5m.
14% of the cars tested had a stopping distance of 30.5-32m
1.5% of the cars tested had a stopping distance of 32-33.5m

So half the cars tested could have had a longer stopping distance that what is depicted in the stopping distances image. They quite possibly could have hit the pedestrian.

So I ask to all those that believe that the diagram shown earlier with the stopping distances does not apply to them because they have upgraded their standard brakes and have put on good tyres.....where is your car, and what is to say that you are going to be able to increase the stopping power of your vehicle in such a drastic way that you will be in the top 0.5% of cars that are so much better than average(more than 3 standard deviations)that you can stop 4.5m (in my example) before the distance depicted in the diagram?

The diagram (and many others out there which are similar) is relevant to everyone as a rough guide to show you that travelling faster means you have a longer stopping distance. If you driving in your car at 50km/hr slam on the brakes (perhaps to avoid hitting a child who ran onto the road to get a ball) you will come to a complete stop within a certain distance(hopefully before the child). But DEFINATELY, WITHOUT QUESTION, it will be a shorter distance than if you were travelling at 90km/hr or even 55km/hr in the same situation.

drcook · 01-09-2006, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 05MkIIFutura

I am a firm supporter of 40-50km/h on suburban streets. It only adds marginally to your trip time, and makes travel alot safer in areas where there are many more hazards than out in the open and where distances are not large

then why don't you drive at 30. It only adds marginally to your trip time, and makes travel alot safer in areas where there are many more hazards than out in the open and where distances are not large.

then why don't you drive at 20. It only adds marginally to your trip time, and makes travel alot safer in areas where there are many more hazards than out in the open and where distances are not large.

then why don't you drive at 10. It only adds marginally to your trip time, and makes travel alot safer in areas where there are many more hazards than out in the open and where distances are not large.

then why don't you ride a bicycle. It only adds marginally to your trip time, and makes travel alot safer in areas where there are many more hazards than out in the open and where distances are not large.

then why don't you walk. It only adds marginally to your trip time, and makes travel alot safer in areas where there are many more hazards than out in the open and where distances are not large..........

the point would be if you cant safely drive a vehicle at 60kph (considering, of course, the conditions around you, like a good driver would), you arent a capable driver, and you shouldnt be given a licence.

Gunns · 01-09-2006, 02:16 PM

I said it once and it will say it again, speeding has never killed anyone! Becoming suddenly stationary is what kills people.

05MkIIFutura · 01-09-2006, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcook

then why don't you drive at 10. It only adds marginally to your trip time, and makes travel alot safer in areas where there are many more hazards than out in the open and where distances are not large.

no it doesnt. If i have to drive 10km to work,

assuming speed limit is 60km/h, avg speed is roughly 35km/hour, and takes a 17.2 minutes

assuming speed limit is 50km/h, avg speed is roughly 32km/hour, and takes 18.75 minutes.

I know this is FACT, i have done it. You spend most your time in city trips well BELOW the speed limit anyway.

So lets look at your einstien idea, about travelling at 10km/h

assuming speed limit is 10km/h, avg would be about 8km/h (havent done this so +-1km/h), trip would take 75 minutes.

So between 60 and 50 km/h is 1.25mins, and between 60 and 10 km/h is 57.2 mins (a bloody hour!!)

Sorry mate, but you are about as INCORRECT as you could be on this matter.

I believe it is worth losing 1.25mins if it means i can stop in a 10 METRE!! shorter distance

Quote:

Originally Posted by drcook

the point would be if you cant safely drive a vehicle at 60kph (considering, of course, the conditions around you, like a good driver would), you arent a capable driver, and you shouldnt be given a licence.

To quote GCFordChic, "It is comments like this which come from people who believe they are above statistics/physics/human error that cause so many accidents on the road..."

You just fit straight into that group.