Goodbye Holden Commodore?

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Nic85

I had to actually Google "Belmont". Google seems to think it's an old Holden Kingswood type deal? I'll assume by your comment, that you think the current Commodore/Falcon cars have high equipment levels? You pay $85k for the top of the line FPV GT-P and get no Xenon headlights, no rain sensing wipers, no dusk sensing headlamps - things that aren't necessary, but things you get all the same in cars half the price. The reason I bring it up is to support my argument of "equipment levels".

Falcon has had auto headlights since BA.

Rain sensing wipers, geez moving your finger an inch to turn them on is sooooo hard.

Why not look at the things Falcon gets that some others don't, not every car can have the same things as the others, equipment levels vary between manufacturers.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by Nic85

I had to actually Google "Belmont". Google seems to think it's an old Holden Kingswood type deal? I'll assume by your comment, that you think the current Commodore/Falcon cars have high equipment levels? You pay $85k for the top of the line FPV GT-P and get no Xenon headlights, no rain sensing wipers, no dusk sensing headlamps - things that aren't necessary, but things you get all the same in cars half the price. The reason I bring it up is to support my argument of "equipment levels".

I have been in cars with Xenon head lights ....... dislike. I can blind a bat with the FG lights no worries.

Dusk sensing????????? Mine goes on when its dark ..... all by them selves. Clever buggers they are.

Rain sensing wipers???????? Again ...... been in cars with them ....... I cant wait to turn the wipers on before they sense the rain. I see it .... I turn it on ..... not that hard.

Sorry to use the term but IMO ...... bit ****y those things really.

[Nic85]

I don't think staying a large size car is going to help sales. I don't see that as a viable future for either manufacturer.

Ford the record, I've never claimed the ix35 to be a "great car". I've said it's a good car. You haven't driven one, Bossxr8, and you've previously made pejorative and nefarious comments about the entire Hyundai brand.

I had a feeling this would happen. I said it's good to get those things I mentioned as equipment on a car. I said they're not necessary, but when one car has them, and another car doesn't, everything else being equal, I'll buy the car with them every time.

I'm sorry if you guys can't understand that, but that's my opinion.

[Bossxr8]

And will continue to do so unless they bring in something worth driving, the Genisus looks like the only decent car they make, but its LHD only.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Nic85

I don't think staying a large size car is going to help sales. I don't see that as a viable future for either manufacturer.

Ford the record, I've never claimed the ix35 to be a "great car". I've said it's a good car. You haven't driven one, Bossxr8, and you've previously made pejorative and nefarious comments about the entire Hyundai brand.

I had a feeling this would happen. I said it's good to get those things I mentioned as equipment on a car. I said they're not necessary, but when one car has them, and another car doesn't, everything else being equal, I'll buy the car with them every time.

I'm sorry if you guys can't understand that, but that's my opinion.

so give me an axample of a car that would mean either the falcon or commadore are seen as techless. Obviously for the same price range and well see if all there pros and cons add up in favour the way u and others always say they do...not in favour of the falcon.

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

so give me an axample of a car that would mean either the falcon or commadore are seen as techless. Obviously for the same price range and well see if all there pros and cons add up in favour the way u and others always say they do...not in favour of the falcon.

A similarly priced Mazda 3 (for example, SP25 vs XR6) is better equipped all round than the XR6. Even something like Hyundai i40 vs G6/G6E doesn't do the Falcon any favours. Lexus IS250 vs G6ET (I know they're worlds apart performance wise)

All I'm saying is, when they charge $40k for a base model car, why can't it be equipped according to its price rather than its spot in the lineup.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Nic85

I had to actually Google "Belmont". Google seems to think it's an old Holden Kingswood type deal? I'll assume by your comment, that you think the current Commodore/Falcon cars have high equipment levels? You pay $85k for the top of the line FPV GT-P and get no Xenon headlights, no rain sensing wipers, no dusk sensing headlamps - things that aren't necessary, but things you get all the same in cars half the price. The reason I bring it up is to support my argument of "equipment levels".

Please i dont mean disrespect but your out of context - if the very car you mention wore a Euro branded badge you would happily add a 1 infront of its rrp pricetag - and it would sell like hot cakes to the materialistic style generation without question.
You cant have it all at the price point they ask - and even then they over offer. We have access to M3 type purchases at 1/2 the price. Value for money, we get a better deal.
I guess thats the biggest problem facing our domestic manufacturers - a new level of customer buying a car and not concerned of its attributes but more interested wether it has an i-pod dock -its the toss generation

[Rico 110s]

Originally Posted by eb2monty

Is this unprecedented for the life of a singular model in Australian history?



when I think of Ford models that lasted a while, you had the XF - from '84 - '88. But that pales in comparison to the life of the VE.



.

That is a very bad comparison, If you are talking the cycle of a certain body style that would have been the last one to pick on, firstly the XF is based on the Granada chassis which started way back in 1979 as the XD then became the XE and finally finished in sedan form in 1988 but went on for another eleven years after wards.
So really if the VE in any form can get to 20 years of service then my friend I will eat my hat if not anything else I can get in my mouth.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by Nic85

A similarly priced Mazda 3 (for example, SP25 vs XR6) is better equipped all round than the XR6. Even something like Hyundai i40 vs G6/G6E doesn't do the Falcon any favours. Lexus IS250 vs G6ET (I know they're worlds apart performance wise)

All I'm saying is, when they charge $40k for a base model car, why can't it be equipped according to its price rather than its spot in the lineup.

You cant just compare price points. They are physically 2 different sized cars. You are paying for more sheet metal and space not to mention a larger more powerful engine.

Thats like saying you have 2 properties priced the same but different land sizes and you expect them to have the same qaulity/size house. The larger land size is obviously going to cost more even if it has a smaller house.

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

You cant just compare price points. They are physically 2 different sized cars. You are paying for more sheet metal and space not to mention a larger more powerful engine.

Thats like saying you have 2 properties priced the same but different land sizes and you expect them to have the same qaulity/size house. The larger land size is obviously going to cost more even if it has a smaller house.

To argue your analogy though, I can simply say that the bigger block of land is in the sticks and is a bit more agricultural, so it's not worth as much as the smaller block of land in the city. See what I mean?

I understand the cars I listed are in different categories, but being fair, I was asked to compare 2 cars for features on a similar price front.

I think being realistic about it, if you look at where sales have gone in the last year or so, it's clear that the general buying public have moved away from large sedans, and onto SUV's/medium sized cars - hence the Mazda 3 comparison. It's a valid argument to say, "Yeah but in a Falcon you get a bigger car and a bigger, more powerful engine." But, that argument is redundant when that's not what the general buying public want in the first place.

All I'm saying is, all the new little cars coming in now (look at the new Kia Rio, Suzuki Swift Sport, etc) all have high equipment levels and a low cost price. It makes little difference that Falcon/Commodore have more room and more powerful engines, because if people wanted a bigger car they'd get an SUV with a frugal duiesel engine, and sales statistics support this.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by Rico 110s

That is a very bad comparison, If you are talking the cycle of a certain body style that would have been the last one to pick on, firstly the XF is based on the Granada chassis which started way back in 1979 as the XD then became the XE and finally finished in sedan form in 1988 but went on for another eleven years after wards.
So really if the VE in any form can get to 20 years of service then my friend I will eat my hat if not anything else I can get in my mouth.

Firstly, XD-E-F was not a Granada chassis. It simply took styling cues from the Granada. IIRC XD still had the XC floorpan.

Secondly, VE is only scheduled to be replaced in 2014, so whilst its been on sale NOW for 6 years, its still got another 2 to go! Even then, 2014 VF will be the same underpinnings and that is scheduled to finish around 2018, so the whole lifespan is still a staggering 12 years.

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by Nic85

To argue your analogy though, I can simply say that the bigger block of land is in the sticks and is a bit more agricultural, so it's not worth as much as the smaller block of land in the city. See what I mean?

I understand the cars I listed are in different categories, but being fair, I was asked to compare 2 cars for features on a similar price front.

I think being realistic about it, if you look at where sales have gone in the last year or so, it's clear that the general buying public have moved away from large sedans, and onto SUV's/medium sized cars - hence the Mazda 3 comparison. It's a valid argument to say, "Yeah but in a Falcon you get a bigger car and a bigger, more powerful engine." But, that argument is redundant when that's not what the general buying public want in the first place.

All I'm saying is, all the new little cars coming in now (look at the new Kia Rio, Suzuki Swift Sport, etc) all have high equipment levels and a low cost price. It makes little difference that Falcon/Commodore have more room and more powerful engines, because if people wanted a bigger car they'd get an SUV with a frugal duiesel engine, and sales statistics support this.

My property example was obviously comparing 2 places in the same location. But anyway.

I agree that people dont want large sedans anymore. I mentioned in another thread that Holden and Ford could get by without a large model these days. They have lost their purpose. When it comes to price though Ford cant really do much without cutting into profit. They are worth what they are worth and if people dont want them anymore then its time to get rid of them.

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

My property example was obviously comparing 2 places in the same location. But anyway.

I agree that people dont want large sedans anymore. I mentioned in another thread that Holden and Ford could get by without a large model these days. They have lost their purpose. When it comes to price though Ford cant really do much without cutting into profit. They are worth what they are worth and if people dont want them anymore then its time to get rid of them.

Couldn't agree more, so now we've come full circle to what I said initially about creating a car that caters more toward the needs of the buying public.

It's about securing Australian jobs for Australians by building a viable product that people will actually buy moving forward.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Nic85

To argue your analogy though, I can simply say that the bigger block of land is in the sticks and is a bit more agricultural, so it's not worth as much as the smaller block of land in the city. See what I mean?

I understand the cars I listed are in different categories, but being fair, I was asked to compare 2 cars for features on a similar price front.

I think being realistic about it, if you look at where sales have gone in the last year or so, it's clear that the general buying public have moved away from large sedans, and onto SUV's/medium sized cars - hence the Mazda 3 comparison. It's a valid argument to say, "Yeah but in a Falcon you get a bigger car and a bigger, more powerful engine." But, that argument is redundant when that's not what the general buying public want in the first place.

All I'm saying is, all the new little cars coming in now (look at the new Kia Rio, Suzuki Swift Sport, etc) all have high equipment levels and a low cost price. It makes little difference that Falcon/Commodore have more room and more powerful engines, because if people wanted a bigger car they'd get an SUV with a frugal duiesel engine, and sales statistics support this.

you totallt misunderstood me..and it shows how far of that viewpoint is. If you go from a tiny car to a big car there are so many pros and cons between them...and they tend to level themselves out. Just because people want smaller economic cars these days does not mean the large car market has to turn into a small car....cus thats essentially what your saying. think about it. the falcon allready has economy better then most smaller cars...is safer..more comfortable...can tow..blah blah blah...the small cars can squash you...kill you in a crash with a large car...and can sense rain...omg.BIG CARS ARE IN THEIR CLASS FOR A REASON...they offer different things to small cars.Its just a fact.
dont confuse sales shares for carclasses and the need they fill. AFTER ALL IF A FALCON HAD ALL THIS TECH YOU WANT..AND KEEPTS ITS REDEEMING QUALITIES...THERE WOULDNT BE A REASON IN HELL TO BUY A SMALL CAR WOULD THERE NOW. Same fuel..theyd be a bargain..big... comfie...roomie..techy..safe..can tow...WHAT WOULD BE THE USE OF DIFF CAR CLASSES

Do you understand where im coming from?

[1TUFFUTE]

you know whats funny...you NEVER hear complaints about tech in commadores on the holden sites...because their not trying to justify bad sales figures...they sell lots as is...and guess what....falcon/commadore are clones..they have the same tech levels...expalin that????

[Kevaclone]

Will you lot speak up... all that crying from Ipswich is drowning you lot out

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by blk6t

I think the Falcon will be gone before the Commodore, having said that, I don't think the Commodore will dissapear. As mentioned I think Holden will produce a smaller Commodore in Aus but still keep the car bigger than the Cruze.

Introducing the next Commodore... complete with 4cyl, and 6cyl engines.

http://www.cadillac.com/ats-compact-car.html

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

you totallt misunderstood me..and it shows how far of that viewpoint is. If you go from a tiny car to a big car there are so many pros and cons between them...and they tend to level themselves out. Just because people want smaller economic cars these days does not mean the large car market has to turn into a small car....cus thats essentially what your saying. think about it. the falcon allready has economy better then most smaller cars...is safer..more comfortable...can tow..blah blah blah...the small cars can squash you...kill you in a crash with a large car...and can sense rain...omg.BIG CARS ARE IN THEIR CLASS FOR A REASON...they offer different things to small cars.Its just a fact.
dont confuse sales shares for carclasses and the need they fill. AFTER ALL IF A FALCON HAD ALL THIS TECH YOU WANT..AND KEEPTS ITS REDEEMING QUALITIES...THERE WOULDNT BE A REASON IN HELL TO BUY A SMALL CAR WOULD THERE NOW. Same fuel..theyd be a bargain..big... comfie...roomie..techy..safe..can tow...WHAT WOULD BE THE USE OF DIFF CAR CLASSES

Do you understand where im coming from?

Yes mate, I understand completely where you're coming from. Falcon is a large car and a niche product and should be kept that way because that's what a Falcon is, is basically what you're saying, right?

Well, look, I'm sorry man, but it won't be anything soon if things continue the way they are going. What I'm saying is, why continue to build a niche product that sells less and less each month when you can make a change and build something people will actually buy more of? A car that's cheaper to make because of a global platform, with more profits. I don't think you've quite grasped the fact that the Falcon is near the end of its life. But hey, I could be completely wrong. EB4 and EcoLPi could turn everything around and the Falcon could go back to selling 4000 cars a month again. Wouldn't that be something, hey?

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

you know whats funny...you NEVER hear complaints about tech in commadores on the holden sites...because their not trying to justify bad sales figures...they sell lots as is...and guess what....falcon/commadore are clones..they have the same tech levels...expalin that????

Commodore is in the same boat as Falcon. Holden have said themselves that going forward they have made the arrangements to produce more Cruze than Commodore as they can see Cruze will soon outsell Commodore. I see Holden with a plan... Ford... Not so sure...

I don't want you to think I'm hating on the product, because I'm not. I think Falcon is a good product. I'm just being realistic.

[Nic85]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Introducing the next Commodore... complete with 4cyl, and 6cyl engines.

http://www.cadillac.com/ats-compact-car.html

Interesting to note the dimensions of the ATS. It's a full 30cm shorter than the current Commodore and more than 120kgs lighter. This is where I think the future is - in that BMW 3 series sized car. It's plenty big enough for average Joe and even Joe's wife and couple kids. The lighter kerb weight means you can use smaller displacement DI turbo engines like Ecoboost etc and get exceptional performance, but also excellent fuel economy. The new BMW 328i has a 2L turbo making 180kW/350Nm, does 0-100km/h in 6.1s and does 6.3L/100km. The key is the weight, at 1455kgs.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Falcon has had auto headlights since BA.

Rain sensing wipers, geez moving your finger an inch to turn them on is sooooo hard.

Why not look at the things Falcon gets that some others don't, not every car can have the same things as the others, equipment levels vary between manufacturers.

I remember the editor for TopGear magazine writing that the iPod integration in the Falcon is a shining example of what other manu's should be offering, in that it worked seamlessly. I'm sick of what of people complaining about what it hasn't got. Like it's been said... most other tech stuff is useless... and what complaints can it generate when they go wrong? Investing money into other things like virtual pivot control double wishbone front suspension, that's better than MacPherson struts on a commodore. A lot of tech that is useful is at the least optional on Falcon... Satnav, bluetooth, etc. But investment into mechanical tech is just as important. Ford engineers put a lot of effort into making sure that Falcon is pleasing to drive. Not some korean mixed noodle box packed full of gizmo's everywhere you don't use half of... but handles like a billy cart.

Falcon needs to remain relevant in this day and age true. And it doesn't really. Australia is totally different to 40, 30, 20, hell ten years ago. More brands you can poke a stick at... and most people have their own car. Back in the day. Falcon was THE family utalitarian dependable hero. Now it's just that big Ford that chew more petrol than the Thai made frugal hatch which does the same job.

Falcon needs to become a mid RWD car underpinning Mustang. Then Ford can take the fight to Cadillac against their new... and rather impressive XTS, and ATS. Some global ford tech to keep the superficially minded happy couldn't hurt either.

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Falcon needs to become a mid RWD car underpinning Mustang.

Yes, I think Falcon and Mustang sharing a chassis is an excellent idea. That way Ford would have at least two markets for the chassis. As it is now, the Mustang chassis is only used for the US. Ford has said the next Mustang will be sold elsewhere, merging it with Falcon again seems like it could help both the US and Australia. (And of course the Mustang was born from the Falcon chassis.)

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

Yes, I think Falcon and Mustang sharing a chassis is an excellent idea. That way Ford would have at least two markets for the chassis. As it is now, the Mustang chassis is only used for the US. Ford has said the next Mustang will be sold elsewhere, merging it with Falcon again seems like it could help both the US and Australia. (And of course the Mustang was born from the Falcon chassis.)

Lets not forget Lincoln. Lincoln's not challenging any luxury marque until it's stops being limp-wristed FWD/AWD econohybrolectric chrome and leather with environmental responsibility. All the competitors offer RWD saloons with V6/8's.... go figure.

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by Rico 110s

That is a very bad comparison, If you are talking the cycle of a certain body style that would have been the last one to pick on, firstly the XF is based on the Granada chassis which started way back in 1979 as the XD then became the XE and finally finished in sedan form in 1988 but went on for another eleven years after wards.
So really if the VE in any form can get to 20 years of service then my friend I will eat my hat if not anything else I can get in my mouth.

You've misunderstood the point I was trying to get across. The VE has been around for six years and if the VF doesn't come out until 2013 - 14, it will have been around for 7 - 8 years. What other SINGULAR model (not bodystyle) has been around for 8 years? Holden were saying that BODYSTYLES would have a turn over of 5 - 6 years when the VE was launched.

Give me another SINGULAR model that has been around for 8 years in the last 50 years and I'll eat my hat.

To make it clear, An XD is a SINGULAR model. The XD - XF was the BODYSTYLE.

VE is a SINGULAR model. VE - VF is the bodystyle.

BTW, the only parts that the XD shared with the Granada were the front headlights (even the indicators are different). Totally different car despite what it may appear to look like.

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Lets not forget Lincoln. Lincoln's not challenging any luxury marque until it's stops being limp-wristed FWD/AWD econohybrolectric chrome and leather with environmental responsibility. All the competitors offer RWD saloons with V6/8's.... go figure.

I made a few comments similar to that in other topics. One of the members here didn't like it at all.

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by eb2monty

Give me another SINGULAR model that has been around for 8 years in the last 50 years and I'll eat my hat.

Would an American example count?

The Crown Vic was essentially unchanged from the 1998 model year through the 2011 model year. No body panels were changed.

[Kieron]

Nic85 does have a point.

Problem for the Falcon as it currently stands is it's a unique product in a small market. If we dropped it and re-badged a Taurus as a Falcon we instantly open it up to the latest developments from Ford and it doesn't cost FoA a cent compared to every now and again introducing that tech to the Falc.

Some here have said this tech are useless gadges but I don't class them all like that -

Park assist
Adaptive cruise control
Blind Spot info system

A bit blingy but useful -

Massaging seats
rain sensing wipers
Intelligent access

All unavailable on the Falcon and probably won't be. Then of course we have the future with the likes of the iPhone app dev that Ford are promoting that will link up to the cars computer, might be bling but it could well introduce so innovative features.

[fte50]

Despite all our talk, those men in Detroit have already decided the fate of GMH & Ford Oz.
Manufacturing will be long gone, with only the 'clean' tasks as engineering r&d left.

[vbvbvb088]

I have a 11/78 VB Commodore......in a shed and I will bring out in ten years. It is a nice car to drive but the old red 202 is a ?

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Nic85

Yes mate, I understand completely where you're coming from. Falcon is a large car and a niche product and should be kept that way because that's what a Falcon is, is basically what you're saying, right?

Well, look, I'm sorry man, but it won't be anything soon if things continue the way they are going. What I'm saying is, why continue to build a niche product that sells less and less each month when you can make a change and build something people will actually buy more of? A car that's cheaper to make because of a global platform, with more profits. I don't think you've quite grasped the fact that the Falcon is near the end of its life. But hey, I could be completely wrong. EB4 and EcoLPi could turn everything around and the Falcon could go back to selling 4000 cars a month again. Wouldn't that be something, hey?

Commodore is in the same boat as Falcon. Holden have said themselves that going forward they have made the arrangements to produce more Cruze than Commodore as they can see Cruze will soon outsell Commodore. I see Holden with a plan... Ford... Not so sure...

I don't want you to think I'm hating on the product, because I'm not. I think Falcon is a good product. I'm just being realistic.

nope you still dont get it...people hear are saying that the reason for falcons low sales is because it hasnt the tech of the small cars...what a load of garbage because in basic terms what they lack in tech in a large car they more then make up for in other redeeming qualities. Theres no doubt comadores and falcons have to change to global platforms and so on to make them viable to be built here...otherwise well just get straight imports....thats not the point here tho. People ar saying falcon sux in this market because of lack of small car tech....WHAT ABOUT THE COMMADORE...it has the same tech levels as a falcon...and the falcon is a much better car.

what people dont understand is that if you have two cars one small and one large...the big one cost alot more to engineer and build...hence cost more....COSTING more is why falcon is dieing...people want cheap

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by fte50

Despite all our talk, those men in Detroit have already decided the fate of GMH & Ford Oz.
Manufacturing will be long gone, with only the 'clean' tasks as engineering r&d left.

If manufacturing goes, so does the R&D!!