Commodore export deal will take it to the home of NASCAR

[HUNTER8]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

And how will the Yanks take their Nascar being a foreign made vehicle. That will get the rednecks backs up surely.

It won't only be the rednecks. GM is getting a lot of negative press in the US over the bailout it received.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...can-taxpayers/

Yes it would be great for Holden if it happened but I can't see Americans warming to the fact that the car they're supporting is an Australian import.

Still what a great marketing campain could Ford US build around that?

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by HUNTER8

It won't only be the rednecks. GM is getting a lot of negative press in the US over the bailout it received.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...can-taxpayers/

Yes it would be great for Holden if it happened but I can't see Americans warming to the fact that the car they're supporting is an Australian import.

Still what a great marketing campain could Ford US build around that?

They have in some minor way, in a recent doco on a Ford plant (Megafactories F150 iirc) the line workers wore tee shirts that said "built without your tax dollars"

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

And how will the Yanks take their Nascar being a foreign made vehicle. That will get the rednecks backs up surely.

Shouldn't be that big of a deal, Ford has the Fusion in NASCAR and the Fusion is made in Mexico.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by HUNTER8

It won't only be the rednecks. GM is getting a lot of negative press in the US over the bailout it received.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...can-taxpayers/

Yes it would be great for Holden if it happened but I can't see Americans warming to the fact that the car they're supporting is an Australian import.

Still what a great marketing campain could Ford US build around that?

Sales are picking up..

[jpd80]

The US consumer has moved on from GM & CHRY bailouts, seems all is forgiven as sales steadily increase.
Notably last week, Warren Buffett's company has just bought around $200 million in GM stock,
signalling a return of investors to auto stocks and in particular, GM.

[Chopped]

Some comments of the Autoblog site regarding the new Chev SS >

"alton.sutton
Hi people ive just return from australia visiting friends they've just traded there ss commodore for a fg falcon XR6 Turbo 2012 and I got to drive it, and oh my god the power and torque it delivers is just amazing and will put most cars here to shame and it will give our chevy ss when it comes here a run for it's money, please ford America import the falcon turbo and you"ll have a winner here"

"montoym in response to alton.sutton
It's not designed for LHD, it won't be coming here in it's current iteration."

"Captain Spadaro in response to montoym
Or at all, if recent news proves true. I really think Ford is shooting themselves in the foot by not offering a large/full-size RWD sedan. it has worked for Chrysler (and Hyundai, to a degree)."


What a shame that the FG wasn't supported enough by Ford USA whilst being developed. They ARE missing out on a great, affordable car.

[jpd80]

Or Ford US could be quite happy selling 7,000 Taurus, 11,000 Explorer, 1,000 MKS, 2,000 Flex and 500 awful MKT each month

All of those vehicles (+ 20,000/month) are on the same D3 FWD/AWD platform, how's that for scales of economy..

And please let's not bang on with proportional comparisons with Australia, product volume is essential in keeping down costs.

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

But Toyota is a foreign brand, not a strong US brand who for the first time will use an import as their NASCAR.

What sort of following does Toyota have in Nascar, i'd assume not much?

The Toyota Camry has been a top seller in the US for decades. That's why Toyota got involved with NASCAR.

I have no idea about Toyota's NASCAR fan base, though. I haven't followed NASCAR in more than a decade. It got too silly for me about the time the Thunderbirds stopped racing.

Chevy fans who like RWD and V8s will embrace the SS. They won't care where it's made. Lots of Chevy trucks and the Camaro are made in Canada. Even rednecks who claim to hate all imports won't care about Australian origin—it's Asia and Mexico they don't like.

Plenty of Ford fans are already drooling over the new Caprice and SS, simply because it's a RWD V8.

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by jpd80

The US consumer has moved on from GM & CHRY bailouts, seems all is forgiven as sales steadily increase.
Notably last week, Warren Buffett's company has just bought around $200 million in GM stock,
signalling a return of investors to auto stocks and in particular, GM.

We bailed them out, so if they go under, we lose money.

Favoring/opposing the bailouts goes right down party lines for the politicians. For the citizens it is mostly that way, but it varies.

I hate politics and will never join any party. I supported the bailouts, though. I favored those more than the banking industry bailouts, simply because the auto industry bailouts actually helped people who build things as opposed to helping people who simply move other people's money around poorly.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

We bailed them out, so if they go under, we lose money.

The deal was done, most people accept it was the right thing to do, all that matters now is
the government getting back most of the money, worst possible case is $15 billion loss
but that's not preordained, the fact that the government is prepared to hold onto its
remaining GM stock until prices get better says they won't be out of pocket too bad..

[TheZHLANE]

Commodore racing in nascar, they already have an impala for chevrolet, why do they need a commodore?

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

Weird all this came out as I followed a C'dore down East Link yesterday ...... had the standard Chev front and back badge but all other badges said Chevrolet International. Didn't notice though if it was left or right drive as the windows were actually very dark tint. Either someone had done that little but extra on the badge front or was a test mule of sorts.

I thought Chevrolet SS's were already being sold

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by TheZHLANE

Commodore racing in nascar, they already have an impala for chevrolet, why do they need a commodore?

For whatever reason, they're taking the Impala nameplate out of NASCAR. It could simply be an effort to boost Holden production.

Without Holden, there'd be no Camaro now (even though it required an insane hack job on the Holden chassis).

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

For whatever reason, they're taking the Impala nameplate out of NASCAR. It could simply be an effort to boost Holden production.

Without Holden, there'd be no Camaro now (even though it required an insane hack job on the Holden chassis).

It wasn't a hack job and actually delivered a strong and rigid chassis to camaro,
yes it was heavier than expected but not for the reasons often stated ( sedan platform)

Zeta II is an opportunity for Holden to showcase what can be achieved with Zeta on a world stage.
The goal of 100 Kg weight loss is achieved through changes in structural members and increased
welds afforded by using "Layer Build" structures instead of the original Zeta structural members
along with Alloy panels and greater use of plastic components.

If things go to plan, a VF SS Commodore at around 1670 Kg (3700 lbs) will have a significant weight
advantage over the Dodge charger and should suitably impress US buyers way more than Pontiac G8 ever did.

[FPV GTHO]

Isnt Zeta II primarily being developed for the long wheelbase cars?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

Isnt Zeta II primarily being developed for the long wheelbase cars?

I thought so too until discussing with an engineer friend, it seems that LWB and SWB Zeta will both go to Zeta II.

Zeta II will have a lighter structure than Zeta due to several factors, the GM “Layer Build” process which uses lots of
smaller light weight elements and more welding to deliver a chassis that is still just as strong as the original.

The original Zeta in VE used big logs or longitudinal chassis members to give strength where the “Layer build”
replaces those members with “compartment” structures that look like trapezoid, honeycomb and triangulated
sections resulting in strong structures with less metal producing approximately half of the projected 100 Kg
weight saving, the rest supposedly coming from bolt on alloy panels and more use of plastic components.

From what I gather, VF will have lighter floor pan, thinner pillars, different panels and glass house
so whilst similar size, the different appearance and reduced weight will make it look and feel like a
completely different car than VE, something Holden is hoping for given the limited development funding
compared to the original Zeta budget.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

From what I gather, VF will have lighter floor pan, thinner pillars, different panels and glass house
so whilst similar size, the different appearance and reduced weight will make it look and feel like a
completely different car than VE, something Holden is hoping for given the limited development funding
compared to the original Zeta budget.

I actually thought VF wouldnt be that big of a change, especially changes to the glasshouse and pillars. Interested to see the tech developments especially if it is being sold in the US as a premium performance sedan.

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by HUNTER8

It won't only be the rednecks. GM is getting a lot of negative press in the US over the bailout it received.

http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2012/...can-taxpayers/

Yes it would be great for Holden if it happened but I can't see Americans warming to the fact that the car they're supporting is an Australian import.

Still what a great marketing campain could Ford US build around that?

But thats fox news, far right whack jobs.

[Chopped]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Or Ford US could be quite happy selling 7,000 Taurus, 11,000 Explorer, 1,000 MKS, 2,000 Flex and 500 awful MKT each month

All of those vehicles (+ 20,000/month) are on the same D3 FWD/AWD platform, how's that for scales of economy..

And please let's not bang on with proportional comparisons with Australia, product volume is essential in keeping down costs.

Or Ford Aus could be really, really happy selling the FG to them....

[FPV GTHO]

Ford Aus doesn't have the capability at the moment to supply 20k units a month. That commitment for FG would need it built stateside

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by jpd80

It wasn't a hack job and actually delivered a strong and rigid chassis to camaro,
yes it was heavier than expected but not for the reasons often stated ( sedan platform)

They had to move the front axle something like 2 inches forward and I think they moved the rear 7 inches forward. They had to redesign the front suspension completely to allow huge wheels while maintaining a low hood.

Stiff or not, they hacked up the source chassis.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

They had to move the front axle something like 2 inches forward and I think they moved the rear 7 inches forward. They had to redesign the front suspension completely to allow huge wheels while maintaining a low hood.

Stiff or not, they hacked up the source chassis.

Zeta is a modular platform that can vary front, middle and tail section, it was designed from the get go to be that way.
Bob Lutz did a video interview extolling zeta's flexibility and the modular feature explaining that each module has a
long and short version and by combining various module lengths, diferent cars can be produced...

And by the way, the modification to make Camaro's the front suspension is an extension on existing design, not a complete tear up.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Chopped

Or Ford Aus could be really, really happy selling the FG to them....

That battle was won and lost years ago. Exporting falcon to the USA has been looked at no fewer than three times
in the past ten years, the sums just don't add up, especially in regards to perceived internal competition.

Ford NA made their decision to go with FWD/AWD platform when Ford Aust began preliminary work on the "GRWD" project.
Mulally and his NA chiefs opted for FWD/AWD platforms because it provided far more flexibility for their market.

[Moby Vic]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Zeta is a modular platform that can vary front, middle and tail section, it was designed from the get go to be that way.
Bob Lutz did a video interview extolling zeta's flexibility and the modular feature explaining that each module has a
long and short version and by combining various module lengths, diferent cars can be produced...

And by the way, the modification to make Camaro's the front suspension is an extension on existing design, not a complete tear up.

Semantics.

It didn't sound like a simple process when I read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Camaro-Legend-...3&sr=1-3-fkmr0

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

Semantics.

It didn't sound like a simple process when I read this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Camaro-Legend-...3&sr=1-3-fkmr0

I didn't say it was simple, I said it was an extension of existing design.
and my referee is actually speaking with engineers attached to the project

Camaro is a very unique variant of Zeta and as such, it commanded the development funds necessary
to make the changes to Zeta to allow for the unique characteristics of Camaro's body design to be carried out.

What i find interesting is that Mark Reuss refers to Camaro as Zeta II where as the coming changes to VF Commodore
are mentioned as Zeta II.... I think those two projects are completely different and maybe the VF development is more
like Zeta III, more bloody sequels than Star Wars...LOL

Well That's to be expected when funds are tight and GM/Holden looks to implement evolutionary changes and weight savings)

Looks like "layer Build" engineering is filtering through GM platforms and replacing previous structural members, which in
turn helps reduce weight significantly, that's the point of my post, not to debate the virtues of Zeta as depicted in Camaro...

I'm hoping by posting this, someone from "our side of the fence" will be able to fill in the blanks on Ford architecture
and what can be changed, adjusted or transferred from other platforms into falcon and Mustang to keep weight down.

Fingers crossed we get a response..

[Moby Vic]

"Extension of existing design."

Translation: hack job.

If weight savings was involved in the Camaro, I'd like to know where. A Camaro SS weighs about 4,000 pounds—the same as my all-steel, body-on-frame Crown Vic.

The shipping weight for my '95 Mustang GTS was 3,183 pounds, and that was considered heavy. I think the current Mustang GT weighs around 3,800 pounds.

The book I read on the Camaro was very enlightening. With the 2005 Mustang, Ford designed the car for production and then made a racy concept. Chevrolet, on the other hand, designed a racy concept and had no plans to put the car in production.

Lo and behold, there was interest in the concept, so they had to figure out how to produce it. The first challenge was finding a chassis to put under it. Sigma was deemed too expensive. So they went with Zeta, and began "extending."

And some people wonder why they had to file for bankruptcy.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

The shipping weight for my '95 Mustang GTS was 3,183 pounds, and that was considered heavy. I think the current Mustang GT weighs around 3,800 pounds.

Current V8 Mustang is just over 3600 lbs, the V6 around 100 lbs lighter,
Camaro is 200 lbs heavier but I doubt that's a sale stopper with GM Fans..


Not meaning to be a GM apologist here, just trying to present some intel on what is probably going to be in VF Commodore..
I really couldn't give a rats patootie about Camaro, the car just flat out doesn't interest me,
good on GM for bringing it back but I think their priorities were all off at that time, they needed
new Silverado badly as well as revamped car line up, a sports coupe could have, should have waited..

[Moby Vic]

And yet, disturbingly, it has been outselling the Mustang since it came back. I don't get it.

The book I read is obviously written for Camaro fans, yet it makes many of the decisions look ridiculous. The coupe version has two different roofs because they wanted to keep the "reverse Mohawk" indentation of the concept for production. They also wanted to offer a sunroof because Mustang doesn't offer one, hence two different coupe roofs.

The ridiculously long doors are so heavy (shades of the '70-1/2 through '81 Camaro) that they require two latches to keep them shut, and they also have explosive bolts that fire in case of collision to keep them from flying open.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Moby Vic

And yet, disturbingly, it has been outselling the Mustang since it came back. I don't get it.

Sales are no indicator of profit, GM lead Ford all the way to bankruptcy..
Until late last year ther was no real incentive on Mustang but once that added around $3,000 they started selling again..what a shock.

The book I read is obviously written for Camaro fans, yet it makes many of the decisions look ridiculous. The coupe version has two different roofs because they wanted to keep the "reverse Mohawk" indentation of the concept for production. They also wanted to offer a sunroof because Mustang doesn't offer one, hence two different coupe roofs.

The ridiculously long doors are so heavy (shades of the '70-1/2 through '81 Camaro) that they require two latches to keep them shut, and they also have explosive bolts that fire in case of collision to keep them from flying open.

That's why I and many others prefer Ford's simpler Mustang design, start with less weight and finish way in front.
IMO, Mustang paired with Falcon would be nowhere as complex as Zeta Camaro, <---I think they tried to do too much..

[jpd80]

It will be interesting to see if Holden achieves that 100 kg weight reduction,
I think they need to in order for the VF SS to pass muster in the USA against the Charger.