South Australia to put curfew on P-platers

[DDXR6T]

On the 'licence is a privilege' bandwagon, and always have been. Whiners are always going to whinge, if you abide by the rules, you'll progress to unrestricted. I see too many P Platers doing the wrong thing, especially with a full carload of influences.

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

good to see you are well educated but there are obviously things your teacher never told you (maybe your teacher was a left wing loon who sprouted persecution propaganda, they do exist). in my country ( AUSTRALIA) there are many things that are a privilege that you need to earn, a licence is a qualification to drive a motor vehicle and as with any qualifications the issuers of that qualification can and do impose restrictions for novices in the early stages of learning. sound familiar? like P plate restrictions? all people have the opportunity to advance to an unrestricted and even a heavy vehicle licence if the pass the correct tests and meet the criteria laid down by the issuer of the qualification.
it is not undemocratic to make sure inexperienced people are restricted while gaining the requisite skills it is actually an obligation of the issuer of the qualification to ensure public safety.
here are a number of qualifications that have restrictions imposed on novices

1. pilots licence
2. most trades
3. legal profession
4. medical profession
5. nursing
6. commercial boating licence

just to name a few and this is not discrimination they all have to earn the privilege of their qualification by gaining the requisite skill and experience before having restrictions lifted

I never said you don't have to earn them, nor did I say anything about restrictions. Everyone in Australia has a right to earn all of those qualifications by jumping through the pre-determined hoops necessary. No-one may be excluded from the ability to get them by race, age, social status or whatever else. No-one may be discriminated against.

How does that make these things a privilege? A privilege is given to you by some divine right.

So, as all of those things above are rights, not privileges, why single out a group of drivers that the media loves to put in the spotlight? To appease the "left wing loon who sprouted persecution propaganda", maybe. But mostly to be 'seen to be doing something'. That's easier than actually doing something, and usually cheaper too.

Most of my teachers were nice, by the way, but far from rocket scientists. Pity. I had a right to higher education and I earned it, twice, with a bit of kickstart from them.

[Ducati888]

In terms of pure definition, you are right and I am wrong au3xr6. I stand corrected.

3.7: What is a right vs. a privilege?

A right is something you are born with, and you will
die with, granted to you by your "Creator" (whatever you
imagine He/She/It/Them to be). A privilege is granted to
you by the King, General, Church, or the State, and may be
revoked at any time, if one loses favor. This is usually
caused by a failure "consider the king", a failure to pay
the "royalty", tax, indulgence, tithe, license fee, etc.

So-called "Civil Rights" are by definition, conveyed by
positive law, and thus are more akin to privileges than
to natural rights. So-called "Civil Liberties" are by
definition natural immunities to government interference,
and are thus are more akin to proper natural rights.

Rights exist before, and are thus superior to, privileges.





Read more: http://stason.org/TULARC/society/law...#ixzz2OmKq77L5

[FGII-XR6]

A privilege is something you have to earn ( using your own words) by jumping through hoops. if you fail to play by the rules you loose the privilege. A licence is not and never has been a right if it was you would just walk into the motor registry and say it is my right to have an unrestricted licence , give me one now.
the really ironic thing is that the thread is about P plate restrictions and you are complaining that these restrictions are undemocratic and infringing on the drivers rights then you say "I never said you don't have to earn them, nor did I say anything about restrictions."
Obviously you think before posting looking for contradictions in your posts like any sane and reasonable person would, after all I would never suggest that you are a professional whinger looking for a fight just for the sake of finding an argument regardless of the intelligence of the argument (AKA a Troll) .

Originally Posted by Ducati888

I never said you don't have to earn them, nor did I say anything about restrictions. Everyone in Australia has a right to earn all of those qualifications by jumping through the pre-determined hoops necessary. No-one may be excluded from the ability to get them by race, age, social status or whatever else. No-one may be discriminated against.

How does that make these things a privilege? A privilege is given to you by some divine right.

So, as all of those things above are rights, not privileges, why single out a group of drivers that the media loves to put in the spotlight? To appease the "left wing loon who sprouted persecution propaganda", maybe. But mostly to be 'seen to be doing something'. That's easier than actually doing something, and usually cheaper too.

Most of my teachers were nice, by the way, but far from rocket scientists. Pity. I had a right to higher education and I earned it, twice, with a bit of kickstart from them.

[adz193]

Originally Posted by flappist

Well I don't know about him but as I am about the same age I will tell you about my training.

I had 12 years of school during which time I taught to respect others and authority. I was forced to actually compete for everything I did and if I was not up to scratch in something I was failed until I was actually of a suitable standard.

I was taught that I was personally responsible for what I did and could not blame my upbringing or the Government or TV or anything else.

I learned that there were consequences to my actions and when I stuffed up I had to sort the problem not just run and hide because it was too hard and pretend it did not happen.

I learned to appreciate every thing I was given and if I wanted something I had to work for it which sometimes took a long time.

I learned that I had responsibilities to others and the community in general and that the world did not owe me anything at all and while I was being given things without earning them I was bound by the rules and restrictions of those who were providing.

THEN I learned how to drive a motor vehicle.........

I'm sorry but comments like these really **** me off! How can you make such a generalisation like that? Not all of the younger generation are disrespectful and ungrateful like you so duly point out!

While being part of said 'younger generation' my upbringing was no different to yours. I had a job as soon as I was eligible to apply for one, and I worked damn hard for that 3 years to pay every red cent for my car. Before I had a license, my bike was always my primary means of transportation. Never did I expect to be driven anywhere. I pay board to my parents and believe that's the way it should be whilst they provide a roof over my head and food on the table! I pay taxes, licensing fees and rego just like you, so you tell me why I shouldn't have just as much right as you to drive my car (whilst abiding by the road rules) whenever I wish...

I agree with the passenger and car restrictions (I am a red P-plater) but a curfew seriously? What an utterly stupid idea! This is going to cause more trouble than it will prevent as kids will simply take down the p-plates and drive anyway. This is not the solution! It's perfectly fine for all you full license holders to sit back and say yes, put it in place. You are not the ones being affected!! I see just as many if not more people in V8's and turbo's driving idiotically than P-platers

End rant.

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

A privilege is something you have to earn ( using your own words) by jumping through hoops. if you fail to play by the rules you loose the privilege. A licence is not and never has been a right if it was you would just walk into the motor registry and say it is my right to have an unrestricted licence , give me one now.
the really ironic thing is that the thread is about P plate restrictions and you are complaining that these restrictions are undemocratic and infringing on the drivers rights then you say "I never said you don't have to earn them, nor did I say anything about restrictions."
Obviously you think before posting looking for contradictions in your posts like any sane and reasonable person would, after all I would never suggest that you are a professional whinger looking for a fight just for the sake of finding an argument regardless of the intelligence of the argument (AKA a Troll) .

I'm no troll, and I've been here for quite a while. I admitted that I made a mistake, and bowed to your superior intellect and wisdom - what more do you want?

The conversation, and my knowledge, has evolved over the last 48 hours. Is that OK with you?

[FGII-XR6]

sorry I was still composing my reply while you posted. I appreciate that you have seen your error and apologised please accept my apology also

Originally Posted by Ducati888

I'm no troll, and I've been here for quite a while. I admitted that I made a mistake, and bowed to your superior intellect and wisdom - what more do you want?

The conversation, and my knowledge, has evolved over the last 48 hours. Is that OK with you?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by fanboi

Is that like how you researched any kid out at night is up to trouble

No actually I got it from a previously banned member, stroked something or other.
He is back on here under another name but thinks no one knows who he is. Of course if he acts the same as he did before he will get just banned again.

[jamess]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

Unfortunately there is no magic fix for youngins and accidents....You can try defensive driving courses (which are terrific)....you can try limiting passengers, but it only takes one rogue youngin driver and mate for a fatal accident to occur (which is what the gov't is trying to prevent) with the eggin' on process...

If there was a fool proof solution, I'd be all for it....But there isn't....The whole thing appears to be some bandaid fix, which might slow the toll down, but not solve it...

From my point of view it is worth it if it stops only one fatality or serious injury. It's not that much of an impingement on personal rights is it?

In a 'P" plater car full of kids you can guarantee that there is likely to be some tean leaning over from the back seat saying "go faster" or "run them" or "we can beat that train" or "close your eyes for five seconds" or "turn the lighst off for five seconds".

Of course, 9 times out of 10 or more, there is no drama. It's the other times where precious lives get lost or vegetated that are the basis of this type of law.

My daughter will be getting a two seater car for her first drive for this very reason, regardless of whether this law comes in or not.

[Maka]

While its not fair on the ones that do the right thing, i believe there is a need to restrict "certain" young persons from driving their vehicles in the prescribed curfew. Peer pressure, poor decision making & a need to compete with their mates in nearly anything they do is a powerful force in this small minority.

The SA guv must identify, target & educate these young persons before they even get on the road. Probably easier said than done though lol! The new law is a good start but it must be implemented without punishing young persons that do the right thing.

cheers, Maka

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by jamess

From my point of view it is worth it if it stops only one fatality or serious injury. It's not that much of an impingement on personal rights is it?

In a 'P" plater car full of kids you can guarantee that there is likely to be some tean leaning over from the back seat saying "go faster" or "run them" or "we can beat that train" or "close your eyes for five seconds" or "turn the lighst off for five seconds".

Of course, 9 times out of 10 or more, there is no drama. It's the other times where precious lives get lost or vegetated that are the basis of this type of law.

My daughter will be getting a two seater car for her first drive for this very reason, regardless of whether this law comes in or not.

This sort of thing happens, not only with "P" platers, but also with full licenced drivers.....It only takes a loose nut or nuts behind the wheel/s and there is a problem.....So I think it unfair to descriminate against "P" platers by restricting them even more....I don't even agree with the V8/ turbo laws either, but that's a different topic...

IMA, I have 4 kids with licences...3 of them "P" platers....1 a red "P" plate holder and another 2 ready to get licences within the next 2 years, so I'm not just saying it for the heck of it.....I'd hate for one of them to be involved in a car accident due to stupidity (either theirs or someone elses), but bring in these restrictive laws isn't really going to solve the problem.....as much as we wish it would...

[irish2]

Originally Posted by jamess

From my point of view it is worth it if it stops only one fatality or serious injury. It's not that much of an impingement on personal rights is it?

In a 'P" plater car full of kids you can guarantee that there is likely to be some tean leaning over from the back seat saying "go faster" or "run them" or "we can beat that train" or "close your eyes for five seconds" or "turn the lighst off for five seconds".

Of course, 9 times out of 10 or more, there is no drama. It's the other times where precious lives get lost or vegetated that are the basis of this type of law.

My daughter will be getting a two seater car for her first drive for this very reason, regardless of whether this law comes in or not.

Are you sure there is not another reason for no back seat?

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by irish2

Are you sure there is not another reason for no back seat?

I think he needs a chastity belt and padlock.....Just make sure the padlock is a top quality one.....The cheap ones get broken too easy...(I made the mistake of buying a cheapie for my daughters....)....no kids yet, but a 12 gauge sitting near the front door might have something to do with that

[irish2]

Originally Posted by xxx000

My thoughts are increased over confidence in their ability but have a read of this
http://www.qoh.com.au/resources/news...river-training

There are three type of lies. Lies, damn lies, and statistics.

Is it a coincidence that Europeans drive at much higher speeds and in more adverse conditions than we ever see in Australia, but have lower death rates?

My partners father heads up a medium sized business. The type on business involves many kilometers of driving. After becoming disturbed with the number of costly crashes they paid for every person to attend a defensive driver course. Crashes dropped over 50% over the following financial year, with increased workers and more kilometers traveled.

I myself have been saved by my training. I was on a semi rural road and a car was turning right across me. She stopped as she had to give way to me, then all of a sudden when I am right on top of her she pulls out in front of me. Needless to say her passenger was very wide eyed as we were traveling at her very quickly. I locked up my non ABS dung box, lifted my heal slightly to break the lock whilst maintaining solid brake pressure, and managed to steer past her. Only then to be faced with another car coming head on at me also at speed. I accelerated and made it back onto my side of the road safely. I was a P plater at this time.

I had been trained on how to release a locked brake, without simply lifting off the brake completely. Something which is not taught by any driving school. My brother in law was in my passenger seat, white as a ghost, but very pleased with the outcome.

[xxx000]

you can't have it both ways

you yourself quoted statistics but stated that you consider them lies??

do you also believe showing/discussing very serious crashes and the victims to young drivers or those about to get their 'L' plates will change their behaviour long term?

[T-Pak Addict]

Funny thing.....

No one seems to quote the number of new drivers that get their licences every year...
So regardless the road toll will always surely go up each year correct? Although with safer cars it seems to keep them resonably static in a sense (dont we always hear whenever there is a fatalaty "X more/less than this day last year") Maybe its really not as bad as first thought... But you know pollies have to bang on about causes...

[Itsme]

I think it is quite absurd having a curfew on a P plater, how else a new driver going to gain more experience in all conditions of driving day or night....to bad if he or she is a shift worker......
Simply B.S. & revenue raiser for Gov Inc.

The young kids today are no different when we were young.

[Papa Smurf]

It's a little draconian and, unfortunately, Australians have NO Bill of Rights like nearly every other country in the world so, we are stuck with this sort of situation as most Australians won't say anything. :(

Australia is the only Western democratic country with neither a constitutional nor legislative bill of rights, although there is ongoing debate in many of Australia's states. Former Australian Prime Minister John Howard has argued against a bill of rights for Australia as transferring power from elected politicians to unelected judges and bureaucrats. Victoria and the Australian Capital Territory (ACT) are the only states and territories to have a human rights bill.

[irish2]

Originally Posted by xxx000

you can't have it both ways

you yourself quoted statistics but stated that you consider them lies??

do you also believe showing/discussing very serious crashes and the victims to young drivers or those about to get their 'L' plates will change their behaviour long term?

I was merely pointing out that when different statistical sets of data are used, then the story can change dramatically.

[stevethepom]

Why do a lot of people automatically assume that because a young person between the age of 17 and their early 20's gets their drivers licence /Pplates that they are going to drive irresponsibly ??? I have witnessed plenty of older drivers on P plates that have been driving like total twats than I have those in the younger category !

[pauljh74]

These laws are aimed at the "party" type of people getting up to trouble on the roads in the early hours. The reasons they crash are usually due to driving like an idiot, listening to their mates egging them on and alcohol/drugs. So they're already breaking a number of laws aimed at making driving safer and the answer the powers that be come up with are to ban all first year drivers driving within certain hours when they could get the actual offenders off the road by booking them under existing rules.

On top of this driving bans like this prevent a responsible approach to going out - take a few friends and have a designated driver. This is a reason why a night ban hasn't been implemented in other states. Public transport isn't safe at night for people of any age group.

A group that is going out to hit the clubs being banned from driving between midnight and 5am isn't going to call it a night before midnight, now they'll just party through to dawn. So now they'll be more fatigued, the passengers even more drunk. Wait and see crash rates go up. Some will risk driving earlier by simply removing the P plates. So again they simply choose to break the rules.

Perhaps the drivers that are actually the problem driving in early hours when they inevitably get suspended could have the curfew placed on them once they are back on the road. This way the ones who do the wrong thing are punished, rather than the people with a new license and a clean slate.

[jamess]

Originally Posted by Papa Smurf

It's a little draconian and, unfortunately, Australians have NO Bill of Rights like nearly every other country in the world so, we are stuck with this sort of situation as most Australians won't say anything. :(

I don't think any bill of rights would include some kind of right to drive...

[jamess]

Sadly, the latest death shows what the legislation is trying to stop. I feel very sorry for that young girls' family. Vale

[pottery beige]

no laws.. will stop death by misadventure.....

http://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/s...-1226609338054

zomg unlicesensed teen driver..

[Ben73]

Last year I had a P plater deliberately cut in front of me then slam their brakes on, at about 8pm.
Maybe all of them should be banned from driving when the sun is not out so this wont happen to me again.

Now I remember few years ago I had a P plater refuse to let me pass them even though they were doing 60 in a 80 zone. This halfwit kept changing lanes and driving in the middle of 2 lanes so I couldn't pass, this was about 1030pm. I think we should BAN THEM ALL. 24/7!!!

In the past 5 years I have had 2 P platers **** me around at night. I have probably drove around 40,000+ p platers during this time. Maybe we should ban all those damn P platers, all of them are always up to no good!

Screw targeting individuals who do the wrong thing, just screw them all over.
P plate restrictions don't affect me so why would I give 2 stuffs about someone else?

[Reaper8]

if this gets passed McDonalds will go broke, they wont be able to stay open 24hrs a day without the horde of p-platers in the carpark dumpin there rubbish out the windows to see who can make the biggest pile

[FGII-XR6]

not all P platers are irresponsible but there are enough bad ones out there to ruin it for the rest. P Platers are highly represented in road toll and accident stats that's why these "unfair " laws come up. the laws are there to try to reduce the deaths caused by those who play up. if you want to blame anyone for this blame the morons that cause it

Originally Posted by stevethepom

Why do a lot of people automatically assume that because a young person between the age of 17 and their early 20's gets their drivers licence /Pplates that they are going to drive irresponsibly ??? I have witnessed plenty of older drivers on P plates that have been driving like total twats than I have those in the younger category !

[fanboi]

Originally Posted by flappist

No actually I got it from a previously banned member, stroked something or other.
He is back on here under another name but thinks no one knows who he is. Of course if he acts the same as he did before he will get just banned again.

im not sure he really cares or tries to hide anything.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by Ben73

Last year I had a P plater deliberately cut in front of me then slam their brakes on, at about 8pm.
Maybe all of them should be banned from driving when the sun is not out so this wont happen to me again.

Now I remember few years ago I had a P plater refuse to let me pass them even though they were doing 60 in a 80 zone. This halfwit kept changing lanes and driving in the middle of 2 lanes so I couldn't pass, this was about 1030pm. I think we should BAN THEM ALL. 24/7!!!

In the past 5 years I have had 2 P platers **** me around at night. I have probably drove around 40,000+ p platers during this time. Maybe we should ban all those damn P platers, all of them are always up to no good!

Screw targeting individuals who do the wrong thing, just screw them all over.
P plate restrictions don't affect me so why would I give 2 stuffs about someone else?

It's not just P platers that do this sort of thing....There are plenty of lunatics out there that don't wear P plates that carry on just as bad....

[NX74205]

Originally Posted by au3xr6

not all P platers are irresponsible but there are enough bad ones out there to ruin it for the rest. P Platers are highly represented in road toll and accident stats that's why these "unfair " laws come up. the laws are there to try to reduce the deaths caused by those who play up. if you want to blame anyone for this blame the morons that cause it

I disagree with this view. I blame the government for not having the balls to throw the book at convicted dangerous drivers. It's far too easy to issue a blanket ban, rather than working at driver education for starters, and increase the penalties for drivers who have been convicted of dangerous driving.

I'm not a P-plater. I've been driving for 14 years now, and I see dangerous drivers of all ages, P-plater or not. Full licence drivers are only subject to a curfew if they do the wrong thing (such as those which are attached to an application for an extraordinary licence after their driver's licence has been suspended), so why should P-platers be different? Just as citizens accused of a crime are innocent until proven guilty, I believe restrictions should only apply to convicted traffic offenders.