Will LPG see a new renaissance?

[Vesper Martini]

I guess it just shows that people in business will try to lower costs but if alternatives like LPG ends up achieving no savings and add complexity, they’ll just go back to diesel. It must be frustrating to go to so much effort for almost no result.

you read theses company websites, and the systems show so much promise, so I guess everyone has to try before they Buy..


My earlier comments regarding where China sources most of its lithium was intended to show that ther are loads of alternatives to mining near Everest but the Chinese basically couldn’t give a crap….


And chasing Asian battery makers to recycle lithium batteries was all about not repeating the current mess but I guess that horse is now bolting too..[/QUOTE]


Yep doesn't matter if the end product is marketed as the savior of the Planet, an industry with no morals will always look for the cheaper way.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Vesper Martini

Yep doesn't matter if the end product is marketed as the savior of the Planet, an industry with no morals will always look for the cheaper way.

Because unlike gormless millennials, businesses do their research. They don't buy badges, they look for actual results.

[Crazy Dazz]

Converting the Heavy Transport Industry to gas, either LPG or NG, makes a lot of sense. Both economically and environmentally.

But it's a massive Paradigm shift. Basically need to reinvent everything (except the wheel). All the R&D done on Diesels engines for the last few decades goes out the window, and they'd have to develop new ICE engines capable of taking their place.

Storage and Transport remains a problem.
LNG is difficult to store, and very slow to fill. (LNG buses take several hours)
CNG just won't give you a decent range.
LPG is the most expensive, and still very slow to fill.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Because unlike gormless millennials, businesses do their research. They don't buy badges, they look for actual results.

A lot of hate here for millennials,

I don't particularly like certain ethnic groups, are they fair game if we can stereotype?

[Giant Cranium]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

A lot of hate here for millennials,

I don't particularly like certain ethnic groups, are they fair game if we can stereotype?

i think the old farts have forgotten that they are the reason we are in this mess.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Converting the Heavy Transport Industry to gas, either LPG or NG, makes a lot of sense. Both economically and environmentally.

But it's a massive Paradigm shift. Basically need to reinvent everything (except the wheel). All the R&D done on Diesels engines for the last few decades goes out the window, and they'd have to develop new ICE engines capable of taking their place.

Storage and Transport remains a problem.
LNG is difficult to store, and very slow to fill. (LNG buses take several hours)
CNG just won't give you a decent range.
LPG is the most expensive, and still very slow to fill.

A lot of large Diesel engines are converted to run on natural gas at gas pumping stations. Sure it’s not in a vehicle situation but they are V16 cat engines, so it is possible. The big question as always is whether it’s worth the outlay in added infrastructure. With higher diesel prices it might be but the engine modifications probably extend to dedicated gas injectors in manifolds and such but the pay off may be security that gas is available locally if ever the “fuel boats” stop coming….

[mad2]

Originally Posted by Giant Cranium

i think the old farts have forgotten that they are the reason we are in this mess.

it's not just "the Old Farts" that put us here .... there are also young shiites who don't give a craps. i always find it funny when people say save the earth. but do nothing about the Homo sapiens.

[jpd80]

Cummins said the future is Electric trucks……

Truck engine maker Cummins to buy Meritor for $2.6 billion
The deal adds electrified axle and brake products to Cummins' portfolio.

February 22, 2022 08:59 AM
Reuters….. https://www.autonews.com/suppliers/t...tor-26-billion

U.S. truck engine maker Cummins Inc. said on Tuesday it is acquiring truck parts supplier Meritor Inc. for $2.58 billion in cash in a bid to beef up its electric and hybrid vehicle parts offerings amid a boom in demand for climate-friendly transport.

The demand for electric vehicles has pushed automakers to unveil billion dollar plans to electrify gasoline models or introduce electric cars and trucks.

Cummins' offer of $36.50 per Meritor share represents a premium of 49.5 percent to its Friday close.

Meritor shares were up 43 percent before the bell.

The deal, valued at $3.7 billion on an enterprise basis, will be paid for using cash and debt, Cummins said.

The company added the merger is expected to generate savings of about $130 million in the third year after closing.

Baird analyst Luke Junk, in a report, said he sees "competitive implications" for suppliers Allison Transmission and Dana Inc., "with the entrance of CMI into the e-axle market a significant strategic development, potentially driving additional industry consolidation and/or increased investment spending."

Cummins is now securing its position because it know the future is approaching faster than most think

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

A lot of large Diesel engines are converted to run on natural gas at gas pumping stations.

They're not really "converted" diesels, they're basically extremely robust ICEs, usually specially developed to operate on a variety of gases, dependent on use. Also used to run generators in plants where there's a lot of "waste gas".

And you've still got the problem of loading and storing the gas.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

They're not really "converted" diesels, they're basically extremely robust ICEs, usually specially developed to operate on a variety of gases, dependent on use. Also used to run generators in plants where there's a lot of "waste gas".

And you've still got the problem of loading and storing the gas.

Correct, the whole reason the gas companies use those big converted V16 cats is because they
can use some of the natural gas that is being pumped, it makes sense to use what’s already there.

Absolutely which is why old mate’s story about the trucking company trying and then removing LPG
infrastructure is so compelling. Sometimes things that look good on paper simply don’t add up in reality…

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by b0son

You mean in the same way vinyl has?

Is the hipster market that big? I thought they only wanted EVs?

VW Transporter vans for the gloss & tinted resin urethane foam longboard - powered by diesel while you have the 'Big Oil Don't Surf' sticker on it, that you got at protests to protect the Bight... ah the hypocrisy... but I digress

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

The beauty of ethanol is that it can be made from just about any feedstock, including waste. In the USA I believe they use Corn.

Generally speaking, to use Ethanol in a Diesel engine, it either needs to be reacted with fatty acids to form esters (biodiesel)
The problem with large-scale production of biodiesel is that it requires a lot of cheap vegetable oil.

or needs to converted to an ether and reblended, to raise the Cetane rating to an acceptable level.
Whilst this can be made completely from Ethanol, the problem is that the resulting blend has none of the lubricating properties of diesel (so can't be used with injector pumps or mechanical injectors) and also has different solvent properties so requires different seals and gaskets.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/..._the_Fuel_Tank

[DTFRMONT]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Cummins said the future is Electric trucks……


Cummins is now securing its position because it know the future is approaching faster than most think

The events of the past week will only intensify the move from ICE to electric, especially in Europe.

[ThaFlash]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

Because unlike gormless millennials, businesses do their research. They don't buy badges, they look for actual results.

i love the word gormless

[b0son]

Originally Posted by ThaFlash

i love the word gormless

Yep. No word better describes the sales people working at the local Harvey Norman.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Cummins said the future is Electric trucks……

Cummins is now securing its position because it know the future is approaching faster than most think

Cummins is "expanding by acquisition" because that's what corporations do
and when they reach the other side of the "Binge & Purge" cycle, they'll offload the parts division to an equity-fund so they can "focus on their core business"
because that is also what corporations do.

the ongoing BS of Capital Markets, is a fascinating topic all on its own.

[Crazy Dazz]

To get back to the OP's question, yes we have already seen a resurgence in LPG vehicles in Europe.
I'm not completely clear on the drivers. Obviously the overall driver is the ever tightening emissions standards and resulting swing away from diesels in passenger cars.

Whilst there's presumably a big move into hybrids and electrics, it's possible that LPG is seen as cheap alternative.
And a quick and inexpensive way of utilising existing engines. Take an existing petrol engine that you're struggling to make E6 compliant, whack on an LPG system, and problem solvered.
And whilst I haven't dived into it in any great detail, I suspect it may be market specific, for those countries where lack of infrastructure and fossil fuelled power, make plug-ins unviable.

Lets also not forget, that all these shifts are being accelerated by government policies, rules, and even subsidies. So whilst in some of the fruitier countries a car maker will flog EVs and PHEVs, in others LPG powered ICEs may be more cost effective.

Now that said, I don't know what percentage of their LPG comes from Russia, so it's possible Puttin has screwed it all up.

[Jastel]

I'm enjoying saving some $$ on LPG like I used to before now there is 50c difference where I live...but I am sure they will jack the LPG price up so its only 10c cheaper than petrol like before when I saved SFA...

[Franco Cozzo]

LPG at $1.06/L in Melbourne, 91 is $1.99/L

LPG is cheap again

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

LPG at $1.06/L in Melbourne, 91 is $1.99/L

LPG is cheap again

Yes, getting stabbed in the left eyeball with a rusty fork is definitely preferable to getting stabbed in both

[Jastel]

LPG has been $1.30 here for the last 6 months...no competition 1 bowser.
Petrol was $1.40 back then, now $1.85.

[Franco Cozzo]

I paid $2.02/L for diesel tonight, doing 5.6L/100km

With LPG at $1.06/L, if I had an LPG car doing 9.5L/100km it would probably be cheaper to run.

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

With LPG at $1.06/L, if I had an LPG car doing 9.5L/100km it would probably be cheaper to run.

Til you factor in the maintenance of an old vehicle... ?

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by b0son

Til you factor in the maintenance of an old vehicle... ?

Is that any different to my Focus with 230,000km on it?

[xb74_black]

I'm paying .99c for LPG and while that is high for LPG, its not too bad compared to the 2$ a litre for petrol. If i was after another car, being on LPG would be a significant plus for me.

[Jastel]

LPG jumped 10c here again...$1.40 now

[Franco Cozzo]

Diesel went up nearly 20c here to $2.22/L

[EdG60]

No it won't, as the suppliers are cutting down.
My hometown has reduced from 3 suppliers to one over the last few years, and even they have cut back from four tanks to only one tank.

[Crazy Dazz]

Originally Posted by EdG60

No it won't, as the suppliers are cutting down.
My hometown has reduced from 3 suppliers to one over the last few years, and even they have cut back from four tanks to only one tank.

SO your argument is that because suppliers adjust to demand, demand won't increase, because supply won't adjust to demand?

[saam]

Doesn't look like the GOV wants us to drive any LPG cars. Since new petrol stations are not even installing LPG pumps in them.
If Australia were to lose all our oil, we would be able to run everything on LPG. But the GOV will never allow that.

They want us all on their crappy electric cars. Nice cars, besides the price and having to wait hours to refill the battery. They claim they are green, but are not even close.