Defence 2016 white paper

[buggerlugs]

.......

[SB076]

Ideally we wouldnt have to have a defense force, but i cant see that happening anytime soon. A defense force is like insurance you hope you never need it but if you do its there.

To answer the questions on subs i would prefer we build them here. We learnt a lot from building Collins and it seems wrong to throw that away. Yes Collins had their problems (as did just about every other military project world wide. If you want the best you need to push boundaries and in doing so problems will arise. Interesting to note Collins class performed very well against a well defended US carrier. Also interesting to compare the cost of the Collins class to the cost of these new subs

[nuthin' fancy]

Originally Posted by SB076

Ideally we wouldnt have to have a defense force, but i cant see that happening anytime soon. A defense force is like insurance you hope you never need it but if you do its there.

To answer the questions on subs i would prefer we build them here. We learnt a lot from building Collins and it seems wrong to throw that away. Yes Collins had their problems (as did just about every other military project world wide. If you want the best you need to push boundaries and in doing so problems will arise. Interesting to note Collins class performed very well against a well defended US carrier. Also interesting to compare the cost of the Collins class to the cost of these new subs

What do you think of the debate that manned submarines are old technology and that there is no need for the development of new ones at such a high cost?

[SB076]

Originally Posted by nuthin' fancy

What do you think of the debate that manned submarines are old technology and that there is no need for the development of new ones at such a high cost?

I dont think we are there yet in terms of technology. Communicating with a sub at depth is problemtaic at best if times. Given the size and lethality of a sub vs a plane i am not that comfortable with unmanned subs. There will be a time when we have unmanned subs but not yet (just my opinion)

If we were to go down that path i would suggest we would need to spend more on secure communication and systems that cant be hacked

[superyob]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

We are nowhere near overcrowded actually. It may seem that way, but we don't have an overpopulation problem, rather a land under utilisation problem.

Look at our 'megacities' - Several have populations that exceed or match our whole country yet their comparative footprint is tiny.

As for your last comment.

Relax YF. Comments weren't serious, just an attempt at dark humour. I mean how can it be serious when I invoke the talents of a Simpson's character...

[Capriman]

What should be in the package is a flight of say 20 F-35Bs for our 2 new aircraft carriers, HMASs Canberra and Adelaide. I also believe that we should go nuclear for our submarines, whether new or US old stock!

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Capriman

What should be in the package is a flight of say 20 F-35Bs for our 2 new aircraft carriers, HMASs Canberra and Adelaide. I also believe that we should go nuclear for our submarines, whether new or US old stock!

I could have sworn a few years ago Aus bought nuclear subs at about 1billion each allready. Maybe they were just thinking of getting them....

edit. never mind. wiki tells me this started way back in 2009....its a long process aparently.

[SYZ]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Yep should just lease Virginia class fast attack subs from the US.

Agree totally.They're nuclear powered, and we could've even bought them off the shelf for less than $4 billion each for a "sail-away" price, which is around a billion bucks less per unit than if we partially build 'em in South Australia. And our home-made subs would still be diesel-powered! If we bought the US subs, we'd also have access to their trainers, (we don't have any nuclear training here) and interoperability in the field.

[SYZ]

Originally Posted by castellan

We have not a hope in hell of taking on any war or saving our nation from jack.

And you base this perverse opinion on what empirical evidence?

Our ADF is a joke! Look at the total morons at the top command we have had the lowest of the low dip sticks that don't even know who or what they are [...]

See my first comment.

My mate who was a Major was kicked out because he upset some filthy low life grubs that were not following the rule book, not to mention what the stupid traitors this lot are and they are treating Aussies as 2ed rate people in the ADF pushing good people around.

Again, could you please cite some sort of evidence to support your claims? And bear in mind that a collection of anecdotes does not equal evidence.

I could go on and on about the backwardness of the ADF and our moronic governments stupidity, it's a total disgrace and it amounts to treason.

I'm guessing that you don't understand fully what the term "treason" refers to? You also need to explain why it is that you think our ADF is "backward"—are you in the forces, or have you been in the past? Some years ago I served in the Army as an engineer, and my experiences then were certainly at odds with what you're espousing now.

[Kingsley]

Originally Posted by castellan

We have not a hope in hell of taking on any war or saving our nation from jack.

Our people have no training, all if not most of our people should of done 2 years in some defence like most nations do.

Our ADF is a joke ! Look at the total morons at the top command we have had the lowest of the low dip sticks that don't even know who or what they are, not to mention I can not even say what they truly are, because in the new age world we are in today, you will be charged guilty with upsetting some ones feelings and if it's just the facts or the truth that you are pointing out, that's a no no !
My mate who was a Major was kicked out because he upset some filthy low life grubs that were not following the rule book, not to mention what the stupid traitors this lot are and they are treating Aussies as 2ed rate people in the ADF pushing good people around.

I could go on and on about the backwardness of the ADF and our moronic governments stupidity, it's a total disgrace and it amounts to treason.

Exactly why National Service wouldn't work in todays ADF. Apart from having nowhere left to do it, it's hard enough now training the ones who want to be there let alone the problems with the ones who don't. Counselling troops instead of disciplining them??? What a joke..

[castellan]

Originally Posted by superpursuit05

Exactly why National Service wouldn't work in todays ADF. Apart from having nowhere left to do it, it's hard enough now training the ones who want to be there let alone the problems with the ones who don't. Counselling troops instead of disciplining them??? What a joke..

Nothing works nowadays and everything it to hard.

Other nations do National Service, and we can't ?

I am all for some sort of education and discipline as a people of what to do if we were attacked and so on.

I can't talk about it all the way I would want to, because we are all under Political Correct Nazi controls.

The laws now work so as not to offend anyone nowadays and as you say their is problems in training, now why is that ?

It's all got to do with the New Age derelict weaklings that control us nowadays.

Look at all the problems around us nowadays with spoilt brats who don't have a father and the single mum has no hope of controlling a boy out of control and what's more the problem is that the government supports the creation of brats.
I have seen it with so many kids like such that wilful destruction is their life, drugs sleeping most of the day, go out bashing people in a mob and so on and on.
No Boot Camp is the way and then into the army, even if it's just digging a hole 4 days a week and filling it in on Friday, it works wonders and in the end you have a human not a moron.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by SYZ

And you base this perverse opinion on what empirical evidence?

See my first comment.

Again, could you please cite some sort of evidence to support your claims? And bear in mind that a collection of anecdotes does not equal evidence.

I'm guessing that you don't understand fully what the term "treason" refers to? You also need to explain why it is that you think our ADF is "backward"—are you in the forces, or have you been in the past? Some years ago I served in the Army as an engineer, and my experiences then were certainly at odds with what you're espousing now.

I can show you all the evidence.

If you have the time or are man enough to read through all of what Major Bernard Gaynor says in his blog, you may wake up to the wimpy ..... we have had running the show.

[nuthin' fancy]

Originally Posted by castellan

I can show you all the evidence.

If you have the time to read through all of what Major Bernard Gaynor says in his blog, you may wake up to the wimpy ............... we have had running the show.

Post a link to Gaynor's blog.

I have no military background (unles three months in Air Cadets counts for anything) but it seems to me that some of the strength of the group comes from not accommodating difference but forming a disparate group into a single entity (as far as this can be achieved).

I wonder if the current accommodation of diversity is about making the ADF a more attractive place to work, rather than building a more effective force.

Or is it that the military of the future is more about individual contribution and not a physical force in the field.

[Kingsley]

Originally Posted by castellan

Nothing works nowadays and everything it to hard.

Other nations do National Service, and we can't ?

I am all for some sort of education and discipline as a people of what to do if we were attacked and so on.

I can't talk about it all the way I would want to, because we are all under Political Correct Nazi controls.

The laws now work so as not to offend anyone nowadays and as you say their is problems in training, now why is that ?

It's all got to do with the New Age derelict weaklings that control us nowadays.

Look at all the problems around us nowadays with spoilt brats who don't have a father and the single mum has no hope of controlling a boy out of control and what's more the problem is that the government supports the creation of brats.
I have seen it with so many kids like such that wilful destruction is their life, drugs sleeping most of the day, go out bashing people in a mob and so on and on.
No Boot Camp is the way and then into the army, even if it's just digging a hole 4 days a week and filling it in on Friday, it works wonders and in the end you have a human not a moron.

Not too hard at all. And true other nations might do National Service but your problem here will be,

1. Finding a government that'll have the balls to implement National Service. The Greens or Labor balk at conscription let alone National Service even if an invading nation were half way across the country and gaining momentum.

2. Since we last dropped National Service we'll need to find the budget to build or re-build the facilities again to handle and support the continual numbers of troops, pay for travel, weapons, wages, uniforms, maintaining the system etc etc. Because successive governments have let the basics on most bases slide in the ADF since we last had National Service and now the ADF needs major injections of cash to bring it to a standard where it can operate properly.
Don't know where you served but spend a few months at RAAF Base Richmond, Williamtown, Point Cook etc. You'll get an idea how bad living quarters and most work facilities on base have been allowed to deteriorate in the last few decades. And I guarantee things haven't improved in the 5 years since I last served.

3. Letting those in charge do their job without being interfered by over the top political correctness from certain political influences. Australia has become much more a multi cultural and tolerant society since we last had National Service. For National Service to work it's going to need both cultural and attitude changes both in and out of the ADF and that won't happen overnight.

National Service is possible and in some cases it's well needed. But the ADF must be allowed to run it their way.

Good luck finding a government to implement and pay for it though.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by superpursuit05

Australia has become much more tolerant society since we last had National Service.

Much to ponder in your post but I must disagree with this. Thought/offence police are rampant in today's society...

[superyob]

Originally Posted by nuthin' fancy

Post a link to Gaynor's blog.

I have no military background (unles three months in Air Cadets counts for anything) but it seems to me that some of the strength of the group comes from not accommodating difference but forming a disparate group into a single entity (as far as this can be achieved).

I wonder if the current accommodation of diversity is about making the ADF a more attractive place to work, rather than building a more effective force.

Or is it that the military of the future is more about individual contribution and not a physical force in the field.

Spot on. A house divided against itself cannot stand. Discipline, not 'diversity' is needed in our defence forces, to combat the coming total war that will inevitably come our way, whether on our shores or on foreign lands...

[pottery beige]

im on the dole m8

i got no time for national service

work for the dole?? you gave me a sore back?? pension??

pass me da bong bruzza

straya m8

[castellan]

Originally Posted by superyob

Spot on. A house divided against itself cannot stand. Discipline, not 'diversity' is needed in our defence forces, to combat the coming total war that will inevitably come our way, whether on our shores or on foreign lands...

Major Bernard Gaynor says that our ADF don't even know or understand our enemy.
Bernard knows who they are and can speak there language as his job was intelligence.

From what I can see is that the running of the show of our ADF is doing a whole load of nonsense that adds up to nothing but a wast of time and money.

The whole thing in the mid east is getting out of hand and it never had to keep going on like it is, it's going to get a whole lot worse due to foolishness of the west.

I think it's a bigger game plan to all this and we are being taken for chumps as we are losing our freedoms and rights as this rubbish unfolds.

[Pis-ton broke]

its unfortunate to learn that labor let things slide and now we have to play catch up. every now and then i heard that china is not happy with this and that, like the Dali lama and Australia / Japanese relations, war games with these nations in international waters, whinge, whinge.. i guess china feels they cam exert some influence over Australia, i would hate to see ozzy pollies bending over for them. and china pushing around smaller Asian nations cause they can, totally wrong. no wonder adf is nervice. didn,t the chinese buy an old american air craft carrier on the agreement that they were to decommission it, only to turn around and put it into service (correct me if im wrong). in china there,s been a big witch hunt for corrupt heads, it was in the news, these,s a lot of corruption i understand. well , i wouldn,t trust them as far as i could kick one.
it least the ship building will get some work out of it.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by castellan

Major Bernard Gaynor says that our ADF don't even know or understand our enemy.
Bernard knows who they are and can speak there language as his job was intelligence.

From what I can see is that the running of the show of our ADF is doing a whole load of nonsense that adds up to nothing but a wast of time and money.

The whole thing in the mid east is getting out of hand and it never had to keep going on like it is, it's going to get a whole lot worse due to foolishness of the west.

I think it's a bigger game plan to all this and we are being taken for chumps as we are losing our freedoms and rights as this rubbish unfolds.

Just because Major Bernard Gaynor has this opinion does not makes him right, he is only one of how many in the ADF.

Have a look at the bigger picture.

[1TUFFUTE]

As you say there is a big picture......but as an eg.....when I was an apprentice, there was a teacher who was some colonel or major in the army, he was working as a teacher while he took backed up long service leave.
Now this guy was absolutely useless, he couldn't even organise 12 people in a mature docile builders class! I'd honestly say nearly half the class had better leadership abilities then this useless muppet. Really nice guy but agonisingly useless! My head hurts just remembering the mess he'd get in just trying to organise the projector while doing a role call....
The guys used to joke that if the brass was that bad in the army then Australia is screwed. Anyway just one eg. I'm sure there's great leaders to balance out the dud ones
Actually, I'd put forward the Q....how did he get into a leadership role in the first place???

[Kingsley]

Originally Posted by superyob

Much to ponder in your post but I must disagree with this. Thought/offence police are rampant in today's society...

By tolerant, I meant the ADF was forced to change it's tolerance toward different races, homosexuality, religious needs etc etc. Stuff that wasn't a real concern the last time we had National Service. Australia is a far different country to what it was in the 50's to early 70's.

[sprintman1]

Originally Posted by superpursuit05

Not too hard at all. And true other nations might do National Service but your problem here will be,

1. Finding a government that'll have the balls to implement National Service. The Greens or Labor balk at conscription let alone National Service even if an invading nation were half way across the country and gaining momentum.

2. Since we last dropped National Service we'll need to find the budget to build or re-build the facilities again to handle and support the continual numbers of troops, pay for travel, weapons, wages, uniforms, maintaining the system etc etc. Because successive governments have let the basics on most bases slide in the ADF since we last had National Service and now the ADF needs major injections of cash to bring it to a standard where it can operate properly.
Don't know where you served but spend a few months at RAAF Base Richmond, Williamtown, Point Cook etc. You'll get an idea how bad living quarters and most work facilities on base have been allowed to deteriorate in the last few decades. And I guarantee things haven't improved in the 5 years since I last served.

3. Letting those in charge do their job without being interfered by over the top political correctness from certain political influences. Australia has become much more a multi cultural and tolerant society since we last had National Service. For National Service to work it's going to need both cultural and attitude changes both in and out of the ADF and that won't happen overnight.

National Service is possible and in some cases it's well needed. But the ADF must be allowed to run it their way.

Good luck finding a government to implement and pay for it though.

I spent 6 years at Williamtown, Edinburgh, Laverton in the 70's and it was basic but fun. Wouldn't have missed it for anything!

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by castellan

The whole thing in the mid east is getting out of hand and it never had to keep going on like it is, it's going to get a whole lot worse due to foolishness of the west.

You know there probably wouldn't have been such an issue if we stopped destabilising the Middle East for our own purposes.

[SYZ]

Originally Posted by castellan

I can show you all the evidence.

If you have the time or are man enough to read through all of what Major Bernard Gaynor says in his blog, you may wake up to the wimpy ..... we have had running the show.

I'm sorry, but your citing your "friend" Gaynor in no way amounts to anything like "all the evidence" I seek from you. You're simply parroting the bizarre, tacitly racist, openly homophobic, unevidenced claims of one single disillusioned Catholic zealot who's angry because his outlandish religiopolitical ramblings got him kicked out of the army. I've read his speech, and nothing contained therein convinces me of any veracity to his claims.

On a side note, one of Gaynor's main editorial conduits, Paul Sheehan, was last week rebuked and forced to apologise via The Sydney Morning Herald a week after it printed a column by Sheehan about an alleged gang rape in Sydney (the fictional "Louise") which he later acknowledged had never occurred, and which he had not attempted to research. His article detailed an alleged group attack on a nurse who was left unsupported by police and other services, then freefell into a story of gross error and incompetence, along with charges of racially biased hysteria, which was most likely inculcated by Islamophobic groups. Doesn't it concern you that one of Gaynor's supporters is also one of Australia's most reviled and ridiculed reporters?

So... can you please provide your own evidential sources for your claims that our ADF employs "stupid traitors" and that the ADF is "treating Aussies as 2nd-rate people", and that they're "pushing good people around"? Facts and figures thank you. No hearsay allowed.

[SYZ]

Originally Posted by castellan

Bernard knows who they are and can speak there language as his job was intelligence. [...]

"Army intelligence" is a classic oxymoron.

[nuthin' fancy]

Let's keep the discussion to the 2016 white paper, rather than expanded conversation now occurring (yes, I know, I've gone off track in previous posts too).

The thread is heading down a path not really suited to this car enthusiasts' forum.

[castellan]

Originally Posted by SYZ

I'm sorry, but your citing your "friend" Gaynor in no way amounts to anything like "all the evidence" I seek from you. You're simply parroting the bizarre, tacitly racist, openly homophobic, unevidenced claims of one single disillusioned Catholic zealot who's angry because his outlandish religiopolitical ramblings got him kicked out of the army. I've read his speech, and nothing contained therein convinces me of any veracity to his claims.

On a side note, one of Gaynor's main editorial conduits, Paul Sheehan, was last week rebuked and forced to apologise via The Sydney Morning Herald a week after it printed a column by Sheehan about an alleged gang rape in Sydney (the fictional "Louise") which he later acknowledged had never occurred, and which he had not attempted to research. His article detailed an alleged group attack on a nurse who was left unsupported by police and other services, then freefell into a story of gross error and incompetence, along with charges of racially biased hysteria, which was most likely inculcated by Islamophobic groups. Doesn't it concern you that one of Gaynor's supporters is also one of Australia's most reviled and ridiculed reporters?

So... can you please provide your own evidential sources for your claims that our ADF employs "stupid traitors" and that the ADF is "treating Aussies as 2nd-rate people", and that they're "pushing good people around"? Facts and figures thank you. No hearsay allowed.

The moderator nuthin' fancy does not like me to say anything on the subject, but Well it's you who wants me to respond, so I have to do so.

Do you know what you are talking about ?

Have you read everything Bernard has put forward, no I don't believe you do at all, not to mention could you be slandering the man making such foolish statements that are not true at all. your not talking about some dumb low rank person here you know.

Have you ever talked to the man, no you have not.

The fact is that Major Bernard Gaynor has done nothing wrong and has been cleared of any wrong doing by the ADF.

It's sadly the case that he had to fight such moronic clowns in the first place, can you understand that.
He stood his ground like a true man and did not back down to grubby underhanded grubby tactics to push him around.

He was doing the correct thing by the book, not to mention who it was doing the wrong things evidently and the gutless sick way they treated him is a total disgrace and it goes to show how degenerate the ADF is run.

I could go happily on and on about all this till the cows come home, but hey I am not allowed to voice my opinion hear, as socialist Nazi types don't like freedom of speech when it points them out for what they truly are.

If anyone wants to carry it on further go to Bernard's blog and see how you go. go on and see if you are man enough to have a real go.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by SYZ

I'm sorry, but your citing your "friend" Gaynor in no way amounts to anything like "all the evidence" I seek from you. You're simply parroting the bizarre, tacitly racist, openly homophobic, unevidenced claims of one single disillusioned Catholic zealot who's angry because his outlandish religiopolitical ramblings got him kicked out of the army. I've read his speech, and nothing contained therein convinces me of any veracity to his claims.

On a side note, one of Gaynor's main editorial conduits, Paul Sheehan, was last week rebuked and forced to apologise via The Sydney Morning Herald a week after it printed a column by Sheehan about an alleged gang rape in Sydney (the fictional "Louise") which he later acknowledged had never occurred, and which he had not attempted to research. His article detailed an alleged group attack on a nurse who was left unsupported by police and other services, then freefell into a story of gross error and incompetence, along with charges of racially biased hysteria, which was most likely inculcated by Islamophobic groups. Doesn't it concern you that one of Gaynor's supporters is also one of Australia's most reviled and ridiculed reporters?

So... can you please provide your own evidential sources for your claims that our ADF employs "stupid traitors" and that the ADF is "treating Aussies as 2nd-rate people", and that they're "pushing good people around"? Facts and figures thank you. No hearsay allowed.

I agree with facts and figures', thus can we refrain from using the attack words of confected 'injustice' as if they are meaningful accusations.

I agree with Castellan's general argumentative direction but I do agree he could express himself a little less aggressively...

[nuthin' fancy]

Originally Posted by castellan

The moderator nuthin' fancy does not like me to say anything on the subject, but Well it's you who wants me to respond, so I have to do so.

Do you know what you are talking about ?

Have you read everything Bernard has put forward, no I don't believe you do at all, not to mention could you be slandering the man making such foolish statements that are not true at all. your not talking about some dumb low rank person here you know.

Have you ever talked to the man, no you have not.

The fact is that Major Bernard Gaynor has done nothing wrong and has been cleared of any wrong doing by the ADF.

It's sadly the case that he had to fight such moronic clowns in the first place, can you understand that.
He stood his ground like a true man and did not back down to grubby underhanded grubby tactics to push him around.

He was doing the correct thing by the book, not to mention who it was doing the wrong things evidently and the gutless sick way they treated him is a total disgrace and it goes to show how degenerate the ADF is run.

I could go happily on and on about all this till the cows come home, but hey I am not allowed to voice my opinion hear, as socialist Nazi types don't like freedom of speech when it points them out for what they truly are.

If anyone wants to carry it on further go to Bernard's blog and see how you go. go on and see if you are man enough to have a real go.

It is the stuff in bold I don't think belongs here. i'm not telling you to stop talking, I'm asking you to improve the way you do it.

Please post a link to the blog.