What was wrong with XR8? - Page 3

brad` · 21-06-2011, 09:35 PM

look at it this way... ford xr8... no more xr8 means no more V8 supercars, u cant run FPVs in the event so if they loose xr8s they loose supercars and they wouldnt do that so people need to relax, in my opinion

on another note... for had Xr8 and thats it, at least holden had SS and SS wagons and SS utes. 3 options compared to 2 theres a bonus start fro GM right there

RAPID_BA · 21-06-2011, 09:57 PM

I bet as time passes xr8 will become the.flavour of the month.

I bought mine because there are less modded 5.4s out there than xr6t or SS. its mint

jackson105 · 21-06-2011, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HULK_BA

I bet as time passes xr8 will become the.flavour of the month.

I bought mine because there are less modded 5.4s out there than xr6t or SS. its mint

I'm with u hulk, When i bought the gs I was actually gonna buy a turbo. So glad I didnt. Dont give a dam if there slow or not well balanced. A six no matter how much coin u throw at it, WILL NEVER B A V8!!!!

Long live the XR8

prydey · 21-06-2011, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

Don't forget Holden can and does share development costs over its whole product line making the V8 far more viable within their line up. The SS is just their hero version.

if you are referring to the v8, you are wrong. holden only offer the v8 on the calias v and ss models.

Quote:

Originally Posted by brad`

look at it this way... ford xr8... no more xr8 means no more V8 supercars

not quite. not much xr8 in a v8supercar.

Falc'man · 21-06-2011, 11:06 PM

It's all to do with perception so from the outset the XR8 had no chance when the press was responsible for half the SS' marketing.

The LS wasn't much better than the 5.4. Holden's ploy pulled the wool over most people's eyes with tweaked SS press cars (that for some peculiar reason were even "quicker" than the more powerful HSVs).

If you do this continuously over many years what effect does this leave in sheeple's minds?

Example. Upon release the 6.0 in the VZ SS does 13.6 in the hands of the press then not long after the VE was released and punches out a 13.4. Okay, fine. Fast forward 5 months and Holden forget to tweak their cars thus getting any better than a high 13 was quite a difficult task. I've personally seen VE SS' struggle to get better than low 14s, and that's with track timing where it would show a quicker time than the press'.

Same story with the VY.

Same story with the VTII.

f1tzy · 21-06-2011, 11:20 PM

What personally stopped me from buying an fg xr8 instead of my current fg turbo was how much of a bad experience i had with a 5.4 when i bought a ba so i decided i wasnt going to let it happen again

vztrt · 21-06-2011, 11:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

not quite. not much xr8 in a v8supercar.

Not much in the utes either as they all run the same engine now.

b0son · 22-06-2011, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

Not much in the utes either as they all run the same engine now.

same builder, yes, but same engine?? seriously??

vztrt · 22-06-2011, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

same builder, yes, but same engine?? seriously??

Actually just having a look its all rebuilds by the same builder.

2011G6E · 22-06-2011, 12:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doktoravalanche

You're all looking at this too deeply!

Nothing wrong with car! Too many people here talk about 'em not enough people buy 'em!

The industry needs people to buy new cars..... that simple........if people on the Ford forum aren't buying new Fords, fat chance of anyone else purchasing! If everyone on here was driving a BF or later it could all be very different!

Go on shoot me down!

Very very good point!

It's the equivelant in the motorcycle world of the masses of people who buy Harley Davidson merchandise to festoon thier house and themselves with...the saying amongst motorcyclists is "haven't got one, will never buy one, got the T-shirt to prove it".

With V8's, there are more people defending them than will ever buy them. They just seem to like the "idea" of a V8 being available somewhere, even if they will never buy one or have any intention of buying one. They use excuses like "what about people who tow big caravans, horse floats or big boats?", when in fact it's pretty damn rare to see an FPV or XR8 towing one of those things...people who do that buy a big four wheel drive 99 times out of 100.

For some reason if you look around, you seem to see a lot more Holden V8's than Ford V8's on the road as new cars. Could it be a dick-measuring exercise with some buyers, the Holden having a "massive" SIX LITERS and the Ford only a "measly" five liter V8? Who knows?
It could be just that Holden markets thier V8 better, or as mentioned above somewhere, that Holden doesn't have a truly hot six cylinder like Ford does to slap the V8 around a bit in the performance stakes. I wonder how well the SS Commodore would sell if Holden had a single or twin turbo V6 in the lineup? If they did, I bet they would be facing the same issue we are discussing here.

OzJavelin · 22-06-2011, 08:03 AM

What's wrong with the XR8 .. probably nothing except Ford Australia couldn't sell a life-vest to a drowning man. I vaguely remember (and I'm sure I'll be quickly and mercilessly corrected if I'm wrong) that Holden sell about 20% of Commodore-based vehicles as V8s. So I'm sure the potential market exists; Ford just can't market and sell or they can't read the market properly and build what the market want .. probably a bit of both.

flappist · 22-06-2011, 08:32 AM

Maybe there is a something that is being missed.

From what I have read here Holden buyers who want to drive a V8 and buy one whereas Ford buyers who want to drive a V8 and just complain then buy something else or nothing.

It appears that the majority of V8 complainers are not driving a new V8 or even an old V8 and some have NEVER owned a V8.......

GT450 · 22-06-2011, 08:48 AM

look at it this way... ford xr8... no more xr8 means no more V8 supercars, u cant run FPVs in the event so if they loose xr8s they loose supercars and they wouldnt do that so people need to relax, in my opinion

What a load of B/S V8 Supercars have no bearing on road cars other than resembling them outwardly.
Flappist is right most who complain never have owned or will own one so it's a pointless execise complaining.
GT450

prydey · 22-06-2011, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

I vaguely remember (and I'm sure I'll be quickly and mercilessly corrected if I'm wrong) that Holden sell about 20% of Commodore-based vehicles as V8s.

has already been mentioned in this thread with some figures as high as 40%. the response is, if holden offered a hi po turbo 6 alongside as an alternative performance option, would the v8 still sell in such large numbers, given the 6t offers as good or better performance with better economy. i would say the same thing would happen. the only other thing that might save holden's v8 is the SS moniker is a very established nameplate.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Maybe there is a something that is being missed.

From what I have read here Holden buyers who want to drive a V8 and buy one whereas Ford buyers who want to drive a V8 and just complain then buy something else or nothing.

It appears that the majority of V8 complainers are not driving a new V8 or even an old V8 and some have NEVER owned a V8.......

did you also notice that many who say the SS is the better option is mainly due to the fact that the numbers paint a good story, and yet when ford builds a car with numbers that smash all that went before, the numbes no longer matter.

all the members on here that have stumped up the coin for a xr8 in the last 5-8 years are very happy with their decision. there's not too many that wished they bought the 6t or the SS.

Bud Bud · 22-06-2011, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

if you are referring to the v8, you are wrong. holden only offer the v8 on the calias v and ss models.

Yes but it is spread out over the wagon versions as well as the Statesman.

When was the last time Ford put a V8 into a wagon? When was the last time Ford built a wagon or even a V8 luxo barge?

I know why they are not building them because people stopped buying them. This was not my point but rather to illustrate why Holden have a successful V8 program, and that is they can share the costs around to make it more viable to produce a V8 model in the first place, where as Ford would still need to put all their eggs into one basket.

I can see why they (Ford as a manufacturing company) do not think that it is viable atm. If they do rebirth an XR8, will it be a stand alone model or can they find another roll perhaps V8 terry or GE8 so that the XR8's costs are shared around a bit more. Ford is a business and they will still need to make a business case for a V8 sedan to be considered for production before we will see it.

How many here think Holden would make a V8 SS model only? After all they do have access to small TT V6 architecture that would fill the luxury roll very nicely, and if they did that, how long before their V8 becomes obsolete anyway?

Is the stunning success of the I6T the real problem behind any Ford V8 model???

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

not quite. not much xr8 in a v8supercar.

Yeh not V8 super cars but it sure is causing a few head aches for the V8 ute boys though.

Bud Bud

**Polyal** · 22-06-2011, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Maybe there is a something that is being missed.

From what I have read here Holden buyers who want to drive a V8 and buy one whereas Ford buyers who want to drive a V8 and just complain then buy something else or nothing.

It appears that the majority of V8 complainers are not driving a new V8 or even an old V8 and some have NEVER owned a V8.......

You assume way to much.

prydey · 22-06-2011, 09:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bud Bud

Yes but it is spread out over the wagon versions as well as the Statesman.

v8 is only offered on v series. how many calais v wagons do they sell? how many caprice v series do they sell? i understand what you're saying but i don't think it would make a lot of difference with such small sales numbers.

holden are going down the same path as ford, limiting the options you have with drivetrain on their models. i didn't realise but it appears you can't even get the 3.6L on omega or berlina. have to stick with the 3.0L.

OzJavelin · 22-06-2011, 09:42 AM

The issue which always annoys me is OPTIONS. If the V8 has been engineered to fit into the Falcon for the FPV, why can't it be optioned into ANY Falcon???

prydey · 22-06-2011, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

The issue which always annoys me is OPTIONS. If the V8 has been engineered to fit into the Falcon for the FPV, why can't it be optioned into ANY Falcon???

those days are gone. name one manufacturer that does that sort of thing now.

flappist · 22-06-2011, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

The issue which always annoys me is OPTIONS. If the V8 has been engineered to fit into the Falcon for the FPV, why can't it be optioned into ANY Falcon???

Cost, pure and simple.

Every permutation must be engineered and certified before becoming legal to sell.
Withe they tiny number of V8 manual wagons (for example) that they would sell even if it were available either there would be a significant 5 if not 6 digit premium on that model ($110,000 V8 manual wagon

) or that cost would be amortised over the entire range.

Would you pay and extra $10,000 on any falcon just so someone can order a special weirdo model?

landau460 · 22-06-2011, 10:05 AM

the 260 xr8 was in my opinion was lame (sorry xr8 lovers ) the later 290 and onwards was a great car there should be a v8 in the falcon range not only through fpv there should be an xr8 or just a falcon with a v8 this should be an option i love my gt i was so tempted to go xr6 turbo but just could nt bring my self to do it as good as they are. I have driven xr6 and even a well worked 3v and the v8 is just the best sound round now ive driven gt i would not bother with xr6 and again bang for buck they are a great car but i would go f6 and stick with fpv.
I do believe there is room for xr8 as there is for xr6. I nearly bought a 3v ute but now am glad i bought what i did but would had fun with nearly the same just not as fast still had that sound

dimka100 · 22-06-2011, 10:39 AM

There is nothing stopping Ford from tweaking their Press cars in a similar way Holden or many other manufacturers do, in-fact it is common practice in many industries to tweak and hand pick select the best examples from the production line to best represent your product when it reaches the media’s hands. The fact that Ford is not doing that is only highlighting the fact that they have an incompetent Marketing department which should be replaced by more “modern” staff.

stang65 · 22-06-2011, 10:50 AM

No I`m glad Ford don`t do that, why would you want to misrepresent your product in such a way.

burnz · 22-06-2011, 10:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

v8 is only offered on v series. how many calais v wagons do they sell? how many caprice v series do they sell? i understand what you're saying but i don't think it would make a lot of difference with such small sales numbers.

holden are going down the same path as ford, limiting the options you have with drivetrain on their models. i didn't realise but it appears you can't even get the 3.6L on omega or berlina. have to stick with the 3.0L.

you can still tick the option box, alltho the berlina will only go 3.6 not 6.0 as before.
no engine option for omega. (lpg exempt)
manuel for omega, ss, ssv, utes.

Bud Bud · 22-06-2011, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

v8 is only offered on v series. how many calais v wagons do they sell? how many caprice v series do they sell? i understand what you're saying but i don't think it would make a lot of difference with such small sales numbers.

holden are going down the same path as ford, limiting the options you have with drivetrain on their models. i didn't realise but it appears you can't even get the 3.6L on omega or berlina. have to stick with the 3.0L.

They all count, it is and always has been a numbers game. I have also seen figures (although a little dated now) that show that 1 in 4 Commodores are V8 models and they all cannot be SS's!

You are right on one thing though as Holden are limiting choices now, and if they do eventually drop the long wheel base then that may well beome a nail in the coffin for Holden's long term viability to support their V8 program as well. This is really why the US cop car market is so important to not only Holden but also Australia imho.

Anyway all this still does not help Ford by only offering a V8 in just one model line up and trying to make it viable though. Leave that to FPV.

Bud Bud

dimka100 · 22-06-2011, 11:01 AM

It’s not misrepresenting the product but more like choosing the best example of your production line.

Everything that get manufactured on a production line has some tolerances for up/down. With say engine power some cars will have a bit more and some a bit less. Smart companies will hand pick the car with the “more”, they will also hand pick the car that has no build issues (we all know that almost every falcon has at least a few), they will hand pick the car that feels the tightest. And the on top of that they will service it real good … not standard ford like but real good.

Does this misrepresent the product, well in my opinion not really, it simply highlights the maximum the product is cable of. Same happens it many other industries I can think of.

Quote:

Originally Posted by stang65

No I`m glad Ford don`t do that, why would you want to misrepresent your product in such a way.

ray38l · 22-06-2011, 11:05 AM

If the xr8 did come back what power should it have?
It would be a tough one because you want it to bring in new buyers rather then taking buyers from the xr6t and fpv. The only way it could work is if the gs got more power and a price rise to make the xr8 seem viable.
I know the supercharged v8's are putting out more power then advertised but your average buyer doesn't notice it. All they care about is how much power they have been told it has.
I could see the xr8 coming back when holden/hsv upgrade there v8 and out do ford in power levels. That would force fpv to match there power which would give room for the xr8 to offer power levels around 310kw. All that is assuming that ford have the money to bring the model back.

dimka100 · 22-06-2011, 11:10 AM

If Ford was to introduce a Coyote NA XR8 nobody would by the FPV GS.

Sure the GS has a supercharger but please for an extra 7kw or power, and 15nm of torque its hardly worth paying $7K extra (assuming XR8 is $50K). The XR8 would also have a lighter front, far better fuel economy, and long term servicing costs would probably be lower too … with the FPV GS not offering any extra kit/features over the Falcon , why would anyone spend the extra dough?

Quote:

Originally Posted by OzJavelin

The issue which always annoys me is OPTIONS. If the V8 has been engineered to fit into the Falcon for the FPV, why can't it be optioned into ANY Falcon???

auxr · 22-06-2011, 11:25 AM

Nothing wrong with the XR8, pure and simply has not fitted into Ford's business plan at this point in time IMO.

FG2- who knows what may happen, either way, I'm really not sure what the proffessional marketeers on this forum may have up their sleeves to magically turn around Ford's fortunes.

A little too much bleating me thinks is going on - I enjoy all types of Ford vehicles and other makes as well, but I tend not to publicly bag out Ford on a public Ford Forum website at every opportunity when it presents itself, especially when I really have no knowledge of Ford's marketing or business plan.

Sure, this tends to lead to some interesting discussions - but just cruising through a few threads lately makes one think how negative many responses are - but that's only my opinion.

Rodge · 22-06-2011, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by auxr

Nothing wrong with the XR8, pure and simply has not fitted into Ford's business plan at this point in time IMO.

FG2- who knows what may happen, either way, I'm really not sure what the proffessional marketeers on this forum may have up their sleeves to magically turn around Ford's fortunes.

A little too much bleating me thinks is going on - I enjoy all types of Ford vehicles and other makes as well, but I tend not to publicly bag out Ford on a public Ford Forum website at every opportunity when it presents itself, especially when I really have no knowledge of Ford's marketing or business plan.

Sure, this tends to lead to some interesting discussions - but just cruising through a few threads lately makes one think how negative many responses are - but that's only my opinion.

You're not alone - +1 to that.