Defensive Driver Training dangerous?? - Page 3

2011G6E · 21-02-2012, 09:11 AM

The simplest way to look at proper professionally done and controlled driver training is this:
For a boat licence, you have to do an accredited day course and pass an exam.
To drive a train you need to undergo many months of training and another year or two of supervised training on the rails.
To fly a plane you need strictly supervised and complicated training program.
To drive a heavy vehicle you need a similar level of intensive training before being allowed out on your own.

So why is it, for cars, we simply throw teenagers out into heavy traffic after a few pretty easy questions, a bit of a gentle drive around the suburbs, and a hundred hours (sure it was an honest 100 hours...) with mum or dad and their own questionable skills.
Why is it so wrong to suggest that perhaps they need expert training and proper professionally supervised controlled instruction sessions?

Trevor 57 · 22-02-2012, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

The simplest way to look at proper professionally done and controlled driver training is this:
For a boat licence, you have to do an accredited day course and pass an exam.
To drive a train you need to undergo many months of training and another year or two of supervised training on the rails.
To fly a plane you need strictly supervised and complicated training program.
To drive a heavy vehicle you need a similar level of intensive training before being allowed out on your own.

So why is it, for cars, we simply throw teenagers out into heavy traffic after a few pretty easy questions, a bit of a gentle drive around the suburbs, and a hundred hours (sure it was an honest 100 hours...) with mum or dad and their own questionable skills.
Why is it so wrong to suggest that perhaps they need expert training and proper professionally supervised controlled instruction sessions?

Obviously you have never worked as a driver trainer.

Heavy vehicle drivers can also do a couple of lessons (or in fact no professional lessons at all) and can be let out on their own, I know I used to be a heavy vehicle licence tester contractor.

The Vicroads car test is designed in such a way that it would be difficult for a parent/friend to give all the skills and knowledge to a learner to pass the test, bit in saying this, there are plenty of questionable driver trainers out there and there are still some questionable licence testers as well.

Not a personal shot at you, but plenty of people on here comment about the quality of licence testing, but most have no ******* idea what is involved in a current car / heavy vehicle licence test, so it is best in these circumstances to just stick to stuff that you (others) know about.

As I have said before, all the opponents of the current licence testing regime, please share with us all about how you got you licence all those years ago, and I can guarantee that the standards for licence tests are much higher these days.

The single biggest issue here is not the quality of the licence tests, it is the risk taking behaviour of the driver FULL STOP, the Authorities are starting to realise this, I have been saying it for years, males do not mentally mature until they are about 25 - 28, yet we give them a licence to drive one of the most dangerous pieces of equipment they many are likely to operate 7 - 9 years earlier than that

Just remember the 'facts'
1970 - 1000+ killed on the roads in Victoria
2011 - 280+ killed on the roads in Victoria - SOMETHING IS WORKING!!!!!

prydey · 22-02-2012, 08:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Trev

Not a personal shot at you, but plenty of people on here comment about the quality of licence testing,

i find most people that comment on licencing system, got their licence under a much much easier system. they fail to see the irony in that.

flappist · 22-02-2012, 08:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Trev

Obviously you have never worked as a driver trainer.

Heavy vehicle drivers can also do a couple of lessons (or in fact no professional lessons at all) and can be let out on their own, I know I used to be a heavy vehicle licence tester contractor.

The Vicroads car test is designed in such a way that it would be difficult for a parent/friend to give all the skills and knowledge to a learner to pass the test, bit in saying this, there are plenty of questionable driver trainers out there and there are still some questionable licence testers as well.

Not a personal shot at you, but plenty of people on here comment about the quality of licence testing, but most have no ******* idea what is involved in a current car / heavy vehicle licence test, so it is best in these circumstances to just stick to stuff that you (others) know about.

As I have said before, all the opponents of the current licence testing regime, please share with us all about how you got you licence all those years ago, and I can guarantee that the standards for licence tests are much higher these days.

The single biggest issue here is not the quality of the licence tests, it is the risk taking behaviour of the driver FULL STOP, the Authorities are starting to realise this, I have been saying it for years, males do not mentally mature until they are about 25 - 28, yet we give them a licence to drive one of the most dangerous pieces of equipment they many are likely to operate 7 - 9 years earlier than that

Just remember the 'facts'
1970 - 1000+ killed on the roads in Victoria
2011 - 280+ killed on the roads in Victoria - SOMETHING IS WORKING!!!!!

Yet commercial pilots can start training at 16, operate much faster and more complicate equipment with passengers at 18 and often are in heavy jets in their early twenties.

Trev you constantly repeat that you are a driving trainer with many years experience.

There is a very obvious problem with the skills and attitudes of many if not most young drivers.

Why can you not even consider that the training methodology you follow may be part of the problem?

As far as your spin doctored statistics.

Why do you not show the total accidents from both periods and the percentage of fatals.

I wonder if seat belts, airbags, crumple zones, ABD, EBD, DSC and all the other safety technology may be the REAL reason why the road toll has dropped.......

MAD · 22-02-2012, 09:06 AM

If the problem is people taking risks, shouldn't they be educated about the potential outcomes of taking said risks?

Trevor 57 · 22-02-2012, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAD

If the problem is people taking risks, shouldn't they be educated about the potential outcomes of taking said risks?

It is isn't that simple, it it was then it would have done by now - people need to take ownership.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Trev you constantly repeat that you are a driving trainer with many years experience.

There is a very obvious problem with the skills and attitudes of many if not most young drivers.

Why can you not even consider that the training methodology you follow may be part of the problem?

There is a high chance that you haven't read all my posts fully, which is OK, most of my driver training was post-licence, that is 'defensive driver training', not pre-licence training, I have done some pre-licence, but mostly post-licence, it is OK if you get it wrong, most don't see the difference, the OP was talking about post-licence but many posters keep dragging pre-licence stuff in, and there is a difference between pre-licence training and licence testing, they are also very different things, but I am stating the obvious surely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

As far as your spin doctored statistics.

Why do you not show the total accidents from both periods and the percentage of fatals

I wonder if seat belts, airbags, crumple zones, ABD, EBD, DSC and all the other safety technology may be the REAL reason why the road toll has dropped.......

there is nothing spun about them, they are FACTS pure and simple, if you don't like them then that is your issue, they are very black and white, I am sure the other "total accident" data would be relative.

Now do yourself a big favour and read the bit at the end of the statistics, the bit where I said the "something is working", that comment does include all the things you listed, but it also includes the stuff I was talking about. In fact I am not sure if it was on this thread or one of the several other hundred threads about similiar topics that I have clearly stated that technology of motor vehicle standards has increased dramatically, in fact (being a fromer OHS professional as well) I reckon this is where they need to target, not the drivers, yes they (drivers) need to be trained to operate this piece of machinery, but that piece of machinery needs to be safe to operate, in fact if you put it into a workplace context (OHS) then company cars and trucks in fact are pieces of workplace equipment/plant.

MAD · 22-02-2012, 10:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Trev

It is isn't that simple, it it was then it would have done by now - people need to take ownership.

I agree totally. Ownership, consequences, forward thinking, have all suffered badly with this softly softly society that has been bred.
But that's getting away from the 'defesnive driving course' discussion that this should be about.

**DJR-351** · 22-02-2012, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

The simplest way to look at proper professionally done and controlled driver training is this:
For a VERY SMALL boat licence, you have to do an accredited day course and pass an exam.
To drive a train you need to undergo many months of training and another year or two of supervised training on the rails.
To fly a plane you need strictly supervised and complicated training program.
To drive a heavy vehicle you need a similar level of intensive training before being allowed out on your own.

So why is it, for cars, we simply throw teenagers out into heavy traffic after a few pretty easy questions, a bit of a gentle drive around the suburbs, and a hundred hours (sure it was an honest 100 hours...) with mum or dad and their own questionable skills.
Why is it so wrong to suggest that perhaps they need expert training and proper professionally supervised controlled instruction sessions?

I just corrected that for ya......

2011G6E · 22-02-2012, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAD

If the problem is people taking risks, shouldn't they be educated about the potential outcomes of taking said risks?

The reply was "people should take ownership"...

Well unless they've been "educated about the potential outcomes of taking said risks", many people, especially young ones, won't think about "ownership" of what they are doing. My sons and daughter who got their licences over a period stretching from ten years ago to three years ago did driver training with a well respected driving school, but never did any training that involved driving at night, in the rain (unpredictable I know), dirt roads, or at highway speeds. There wasn't even a hard emergency stop. That was all left to us to let them try in the 100 hour log book part of it (for our youngest son...the other two didn't have to do that). How many parents would try and ensure thier kids drove at night, in the rain, on the highway, on dirt, etc? Not many I would bet.
Defensive driving courses let kids know in no uncertain terms all about risks and consequences and what could happen. Most driving schools and a lot of parents don't in any detail.

Yes, most of us here aren't professional driver trainers...but we do know that if you are allowed to remain ignorant of many areas of the task you are undertaking and not aware of each and every facet of what could or might happen, then you will be unprepared for when something pops up.

Trevor 57 · 22-02-2012, 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2011G6E

My sons and daughter who got their licences over a period stretching from ten years ago to three years ago did driver training with a well respected driving school, but never did any training that involved driving at night, in the rain (unpredictable I know), dirt roads, or at highway speeds. There wasn't even a hard emergency stop.

I am agreeing with what you are saying, but the LEARNER driver trainers will not do this if it is not a requirment of a licence test, WHY, coz people won't pay for something they don't have to do, they only take lessons coz they have to, if they could get away with none then they would (read my comments about licence testing above)

Until the State Authorities mandate this stuff as part of licence testing, then driving schools are not going to teach it as MOST customers will not want to pay for it - cheap and easy is they way they think, I have seen it first hand.

I have been employed a full time trainer since 1987, I can tell you that mandated training will always sell, voluntary training rarely sells to the majority. If people MUST do it then they will pay, if they DON'T have to do it then they won't pay.

Linkachu · 22-02-2012, 03:29 PM

If defensive driver training does nothing then why do Police officers need defensive and offensive training?
Just jump in a car and go?

My Dad taught me well, everything he told me i still use to this day and i am more aware of other on the road because of that. To bad my girlfriend didnt like me passing on the same info to her and decided to learn from her bronxy friend who yells at everyone when she screws up.

Trevor 57 · 22-02-2012, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Linkachu

If defensive driver training does nothing then why do Police officers need defensive and offensive training?
Just jump in a car and go?

My Dad taught me well, everything he told me i still use to this day and i am more aware of other on the road because of that. To bad my girlfriend didnt like me passing on the same info to her and decided to learn from her bronxy friend who yells at everyone when she screws up.

PLEASE read all the posts from the start, you are quoting the content of the OP's first post but you have ignored all the other discussion differentiating the various concepts of 'defensive driver training'

Baby Oil · 22-02-2012, 04:51 PM

I cannot see how anyone could say that defensive driver training is dangerous indeed the very lack of it is far more dangerous to everyone on the road. I think it should be a compulsory part of gaining your license. Mark Skaife is 100% correct in this case the other bloke is about as smart as the NSW Stay Safe committee member who lobbied for motor cycle seat belts

Trevor 57 · 23-02-2012, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baby Oil

I cannot see how anyone could say that defensive driver training is dangerous indeed the very lack of it is far more dangerous to everyone on the road. I think it should be a compulsory part of gaining your license. Mark Skaife is 100% correct in this case the other bloke is about as smart as the NSW Stay Safe committee member who lobbied for motor cycle seat belts

You need to understand what was written and understand the concepts about what was written, I reckon Mark Skaife looks like an un-educated dill in this, he is commenting about stuff that he thinks he knows about, but doesn't, that is obvious to people who are in the game.

When was the last time Mark Skaife took a regular person out on the roads and gave them some 'defensive driver training', never would be my guess.

He may very well have done some loop-de-loops with some passengers on a race track a few times, but that does NOT qualify as real 'defensive driver training' I don't know why people believe the opinions of professional race car drivers, they are not some oracle that know everyhting about every day driving in traffic down the Monash, sure they do it, sure they might have higher than average motor and observations skills, but they still have crashes in traffic, do a google and you will se what I mean, most of the skills and knowledge used on a race track just aren't used in road situations.

BTW, I am competing at Sandown this weekend if you want to come and say g'day, look for the orange XE.

castellan · 23-02-2012, 12:04 PM

Big Trev
It's fair enough what you say in defencive driving.
But if you do loose control you will be up the creek end of story.
Anyone that does not know how to control a car 'in all situations' is just not where it all ends, but as far as your saying that's maybe another level to explore after you learn defence.

Just like some one could learn defence for walking down the street etc to avoid a situation like don't do this don't do that and you should be ok. but if you were attacked by one or others you will be up the creek.
But if someone were to be a Sensei, this would not be something to afraid of as you can deal with it, as it comes as no surprise and it's no big deal.

Baby Oil · 23-02-2012, 12:22 PM

Trev I do understand what was written and what concepts were put forward. What I am saying is that defensive driving training is not dangerous. Though the course should include both practical exercises and theoretical concepts which should include knowing when as a driver that a situation where the potential for a crash is increasing. Some very good examples of this are given in Frank Gardiners book drive to survive.
Mr Faulks said
''Teaching on-road crash avoidance skills involving braking and swerving is outmoded and we know it increases subsequent risky driving and subsequent crash involvement,'' This is completely untrue, because at some point in time you may need some practical skills to avoid a crash if you are lacking in this department all your theoretical knowledge is worth nothing.
I also find it very hard to believe that you find the skills that have been gained in racing do not fit in everyday driving as I do. Especially situational awareness, car control and judging road grip.

Good luck this weekend at Sandown I would like to come down say G'day and have a look But with the Bathurst 12 hour on and my driveway to the track only 55kays I guess you can guess which one I will go to.

Trevor 57 · 23-02-2012, 02:52 PM

Lucky bastard, the B12 would be good to go and see, enjoy

Baby Oil · 23-02-2012, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Trev

Lucky bastard, the B12 would be good to go and see, enjoy

Thanks for that Trev, but your going to be the one warming a seat in a race car even though it's a Ford. Thats something I have not been able to do for a few years now.
Perhaps at some stage our paths will cross and a few cold ones will be enjoyed at the same time.

imugli · 24-02-2012, 01:18 AM

I've done one of these defnesive driving courses out at Sandown in melbourne and it taught me alot.

Not long after I'd done it, I was following a car (at a reasonable-but-not-grandme-like distance) when they jumped on their brakes, in the wet, to avoid going through an orange light.

As a result of things I learnt in this course, I was able to keep a cool head and not jump on mine, (which would have caused brakes to lock and loss of control), but instead apply them at a rate that allowed me to maintain control as I stopped and steer the car slightly to the side of the car in front, avoiding hitting him.

Playing devils advocate, however, there were a number of P platers in their hotted up Commodore utes that literally did fishtails down the road out of the carpark...

Trevor 57 · 24-02-2012, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imugli

Playing devils advocate, however, there were a number of P platers in their hotted up Commodore utes that literally did fishtails down the road out of the carpark...

of course they did, that is their job

prydey · 24-02-2012, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by imugli

I've done one of these defnesive driving courses out at Sandown in melbourne and it taught me alot.

Not long after I'd done it, I was following a car (at a reasonable-but-not-grandme-like distance) when they jumped on their brakes, in the wet, to avoid going through an orange light.

As a result of things I learnt in this course, I was able to keep a cool head and not jump on mine, (which would have caused brakes to lock and loss of control), but instead apply them at a rate that allowed me to maintain control as I stopped and steer the car slightly to the side of the car in front, avoiding hitting him.

Playing devils advocate, however, there were a number of P platers in their hotted up Commodore utes that literally did fishtails down the road out of the carpark...

the other side of the coin is the argument, that had you been following a safe distance for the conditions, you wouldn't have got yourself into that situation in the first place.

kyro_02 · 25-02-2012, 05:53 PM

Anyone can drive in a straight line, and around a roundabout.

But can everyone regain control of a car that has gone out of control(and that, to most people; would be easily regained..) ? a lot of people will panic and flail their hands in the air with no clue of what to do..

It's good to have a feel of a car and know that you're actually driving it, and it's not driving itself... People seem to just jump in and think they'll never get in to difficulty because they passed their Practical test, which is obviously a test to see if you can drive and turn corners..

anyway, my 2cents.

Kevaclone · 25-02-2012, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peuty

Those accidents were caused by stupidity, and besides, no amount of training is going to stop other people running red lights.

And having a prang at a shopping centre? Come on Big Trev, I think your being unreasonable - you've been in the game, you should know that sometimes you just can't train the stupid out of someone.

Red light running crashes can be avoided if you are trained and practice what you are taught, I never blindly drive through any intersection just because I have a green light. That includes approaching a stale green or starting off on a green light. Seen far to many people running reds because it's late at night or there is no one around..... only there are others around and these idiots usually get a big fright when lit up by spotlights right behind them

If the intersection had good viability as you say why did that driver not see a car driving too fast or notice it wasn't going to stop?
Proper training and practices would have taught that driver to notice such things and avoid being slammed into

Yeah I've done the Smiths Driver Course(twice). driving around Brisbane and give a running commentary on hazards you see. really surprising what you miss sometimes

Kevaclone · 25-02-2012, 07:02 PM

The problem with getting a licence is that new drivers are taught to pass a test and do it as cheap as possible. not how to drive

Anyone remember that TV show about the worlds worst drivers trying to get a licence? I mean really anyone who fails the driving test more than 4 or 5 times should probably not be allowed to get one since they are just far to stupid to be out there sharing the road with those that can

Try getting a licence in any of the Scandinavian countries. there you have to pass an ice driving test. Makes our advanced skid pan training look like a fun day out

Trevor 57 · 28-02-2012, 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevaclone

The problem with getting a licence is that new drivers are taught to pass a test and do it as cheap as possible. not how to drive

and the difference when you got your licence is?

Nic85 · 28-02-2012, 07:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Trev

and the difference when you got your licence is?

I don't see where he was making a comparison, he merely made a statement. A true one at that.

prydey · 28-02-2012, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nic85

I don't see where he was making a comparison, he merely made a statement. A true one at that.

no, big trev has a point. many people make the comment that it is too easy to get a licence now, but the irony is its probably harder than when that person got their licence.

Nic85 · 28-02-2012, 07:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

no, big trev has a point. many people make the comment that it is too easy to get a licence now, but the irony is its probably harder than when that person got their licence.

Yes, it's ironic I guess. It doesn't change the fact that it's still too easy to get a licence though.

Resurrection · 28-02-2012, 07:56 AM

I have always believed defensive driving courses make people crash at higher speeds as it provides them with a sense of bravado to push the limits more than they normally would.

prydey · 28-02-2012, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nic85

Yes, it's ironic I guess. It doesn't change the fact that it's still too easy to get a licence though.

is it really? was it too easy to obtain your licence? have you accepted that you aren't really properly trained to drive and undertaken extra training?

i don't believe in skidpan type stuff. most people get themselves into sticky situations simply by not following existing road rules. those types of extra driving courses won't change that.