Why the ICE will be produced for longer than people realise

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Oh the irony

Calling each other names is bad ok. Which ever view you are putting forward.







.

Its Humor Raptor. because they are just funny people.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

I had to laugh at the "There’s a new breed of engine coming" comment.

The Commer 'knocker' Truck engine from the 50's

image

He did a great resto on that one. 2 stroke, wonder if the blue one is still getting around Sydney. Hayseed ??
Gaso, seen the new ??? opposed Cummins ACE? Replacement for VTTA903

https://youtu.be/Mfy05zqn324

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by GasoLane

I'm surprised that anyone would admit to watching his stuff let alone replying to it

Say what you will about his personality and presenting style. He seams to know what he's talking about most of the time.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Ben73

Say what you will about his personality and presenting style. He seams to know what he's talking about most of the time.

The guy is open to the highest bidder. Do some research. He was caught out suddenly pushing all things Hyundai which seemed odd till people found he was on their payroll. He's a hired goon.

[PhilT2]

Originally Posted by kypez

The guy is open to the highest bidder. Do some research. He was caught out suddenly pushing all things Hyundai which seemed odd till people found he was on their payroll. He's a hired goon.

Let us know which ones aren't "hired goons". Journos working for car mags rely on car makers for their ad revenue so can't afford to be too critical of any of them. You didn't think any of them were actually on your side did you?

[kypez]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

Let us know which ones aren't "hired goons". Journos working for car mags rely on car makers for their ad revenue so can't afford to be too critical of any of them. You didn't think any of them were actually on your side did you?

This is why I go and test the product myself and don't depend on "reviews".

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

Let us know which ones aren't "hired goons". Journos working for car mags rely on car makers for their ad revenue so can't afford to be too critical of any of them. You didn't think any of them were actually on your side did you?

Dear all car manufacturers,

My favorable two cents is available on exchange for spondoolies.

Regards
Franco

[PhilT2]

Originally Posted by kypez

This is why I go and test the product myself and don't depend on "reviews".

Going to look at a new car won't tell you much about the problems they develop with age or what the makers attitude to warranty is like. For that you need reviews by other owners promoted by youtubers like Cardogan, painful though he is to listen to.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by PhilT2

Going to look at a new car won't tell you much about the problems they develop with age or what the makers attitude to warranty is like. For that you need reviews by other owners promoted by youtubers like Cardogan, painful though he is to listen to.

Problems they develop is very subjective. How people maintain cars, driving styles, etc play a huge role in that. I like to ask owners themselves rather than from publications especially big ones with paid content like Cardogan. FB owners groups are great as there is usually no paid content.

Again, if there is a car I want to know about, I buy it and test it first hand for me (and I know many can't do that). It's why I have a EV. I'm a V8 fan but wanted to know more about them without the media bias either singing their praises or trashing them.

It can be an expensive lesson though.

[Wretched]

ICE will remain as long as manufacturers continue to build them.

[Ben73]

Originally Posted by kypez

The guy is open to the highest bidder. Do some research. He was caught out suddenly pushing all things Hyundai which seemed odd till people found he was on their payroll. He's a hired goon.

I know he pushes Hyundai a lot. I was talking about his general videos that are not related to promoting a specific car.

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by kypez

Problems they develop is very subjective. How people maintain cars, driving styles, etc play a huge role in that. I like to ask owners themselves rather than from publications especially big ones with paid content like Cardogan. FB owners groups are great as there is usually no paid content.

Again, if there is a car I want to know about, I buy it and test it first hand for me (and I know many can't do that). It's why I have a EV. I'm a V8 fan but wanted to know more about them without the media bias either singing their praises or trashing them.

It can be an expensive lesson though.

Probably not real bright paying 10,s thousands of dollars for an EV which you have not checked out any reviews of,might turn out to be a total load of rubbish.Problem with face book types is that most buyers are biased in that they will not admit that they bought a heap of junk.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Tassie f100

Probably not real bright paying 10,s thousands of dollars for an EV which you have not checked out any reviews of,might turn out to be a total load of rubbish.Problem with face book types is that most buyers are biased in that they will not admit that they bought a heap of junk.

You haven't read the Everest forums!

Like I said, not for everyone. But I like to find out first hand. I've been pleasantly surprised with the EV; dare I say impressed!

[kypez]

Originally Posted by Ben73

I know he pushes Hyundai a lot. I was talking about his general videos that are not related to promoting a specific car.

Thing is, I just can't trust his position anymore. He sold out to the highest bidder. You just don't know which is cash for comment. Sadly, he tanked his own reputation.

[jpd80]

In the first six months, sales of all electric vehicles , BEV, HEV and PHEV was 3,326.
Tesla doesn't report sales figures but everyone else does (1,526) so easy to deduce
that Tesla is 1700 sales.

Of the 1526 EV sales reported by other manufacturers, only 771 are BEVs, the rest are
either hybrids or plug-in hybrids. That brings the total BEV sales to 2,471.

So when BEVs average 412 sales a month, they're still not even 1% of total monthly sales
and a lot of work still has to be done convincing buyers to switch to BEVs. Until then, they
remain at best, a curiosity and at worst, an expensive social statement for early adopters.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Until then, they
remain at best, a curiosity and at worst, an expensive social statement for early adopters.

Kind of like people that have to have the latest Iphone - but a lot more expensive

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

Kind of like people that have to have the latest Iphone - but a lot more expensive

I won't discourage early adopters, someone has to go first but at the same time,
they should also respect the majority for wanting to wait for a more compelling
economic reason to switch.

[kypez]

It's not for everyone and completely understand if people can't pay the premium for these cars. I think it's unfair to say everyone should get one.

Those who are in the that price bucket though, should really consider them.

I prefer less adopters, leaves the chargers free for me to use.

[Vesper Martini]

The annoying ones, are the ones telling people their ICE cars are bad and that we should all have Solar panels. renewable's etc
when they personally don't actually own a car or a house. (or have real life experiences)

[FTE217]

I just dislike period being told the future is now but it isn't anywhere near it yet and at what costs.
Its alot of pie in the sky theories at this stage.
IF solar panels were that great the majority of us normal sheep would be doing it.
Doesn't seem to be from my observations, not one of our social friends or large family members have them at all, afterall everyone like to save a buck or 3.
No one has bothered for a tesla - they are very happy with their ICE MB's/Audis/Bimmers - why adapt being in the poooofteenth % when you have very nice ICE.
Incl my 2 ICE Falcons you can have all the charging space kypez, just seeing the types of adaptors driving I couldn't fathom being near em whilst charging
They remind me of the early Prius adaptors.
I could consider but they just don't draw me in one bit, got too many other ICE rides I'd far prefer.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Bevsta007

The annoying ones, are the ones telling people their ICE cars are bad and that we should all have Solar panels. renewable's etc
when they personally don't actually own a car or a house. (or have real life experiences)

Usually the same ones who don't want those noisy food delivery trucks driving through their inner city suburbs.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by FTE217

I just dislike period being told the future is now but it isn't anywhere near it yet and at what costs.
Its alot of pie in the sky theories at this stage.
IF solar panels were that great the majority of us normal sheep would be doing it.
Doesn't seem to be from my observations, not one of our social friends or large family members have them at all, afterall everyone like to save a buck or 3.
No one has bothered for a tesla - they are very happy with their ICE MB's/Audis/Bimmers - why adapt being in the poooofteenth % when you have very nice ICE.
Incl my 2 ICE Falcons you can have all the charging space kypez, just seeing the types of adaptors driving I couldn't fathom being near em whilst charging
They remind me of the early Prius adaptors.
I could consider but they just don't draw me in one bit, got too many other ICE rides I'd far prefer.

Think the typical driver is very different to Prius drivers. They bought them without any thought of performance. The modern EV's are fast and performance orientated.

Some are from Very different demographic I'd suggest.

I bought them for the performance and I know plenty of others like me. The green factor didn't even come into consideration.

Come say hi next time. Even Elon bought the James Bond ICE car for fun. You'd be surprised what other cars owners have.

[FTE217]

kypez, thats the small minicule % you know , others are green types no doubt about it.
I see them around my burbs.
And yes re what some have in garages, I know of one is similar to yourself with ICE performance collection, so thats 2 I know of incl you .
This is typical of those with incomes to indulge and try something, nothing new about that to me.
I've pi$$ed money in other trial product others wouldn't even dream to do.
Sure I know they are quick, so are countless other ICE vehicles but battery is not my choice of ride to date, even to experiment but for the odd garden tool that I got the poops with went back to petrol.

[pauljh74]

Originally Posted by Wretched

ICE will remain as long as manufacturers continue to build them.

Considering Mazda have recently developed the Skyactiv-X engine, they and many other car makers aren't stopping production of ICE engines anytime soon. There were talks about the Mazda rotary being used as a range extender in an electric powered car.

The battery powered cars that have good range are pricey and the cheapest ones are good as city cars and not a good alternative to the ICE. They're too early in development to be considered a replacement for ICE vehicles

For people to willingly move to EV and away from ICE vehicles:

1. Range has to increase and charge times be reduced

2. Cost of EV vehicles needs to come down. Even for those who pickup a 10 year old used EV, you're faced with the prospect of needing a new battery. If you're budget limited, you're going to buy another used petrol vehicle, than take a risk with a more complex EV that could cost more to run when looking at overall running costs.

Companies like Tesla take steps to limit competition - which costs the owner more. Car makers in the US at least are required to share technical data on their cars with independent mechanics primarily because of emissions laws. EVs aren't subject to this and Tesla is reluctant to co-operate with independent repairers.

3. If governments legislate to ban ICE cars rather than encourage people to buy alternatives, there will be a backlash as used petrol vehicles are quickly made near worthless. If they wait for attrition - there's plenty of 1990's cars out there still going as daily drivers and a few that are older. It will take 20 years minimum. Any government moving to ban ICE vehicles won't have a job come the next election.

4. Infrastructure
As others have mentioned - the grid struggles when people go for their A/Cs in summer. EVs have 30-100kWh batteries - and probably some are higher. I use about 13 a day in my home including A/C in summer. People coming home en-masse and charging their EVs for the next day at work - they may only need to top up and use 25%, but that can still be a lot as a percentage of power used by a household. Then you can have multiple vehicles in 1 home.

People in flats and units park on the street - without widespread installation of kerbside chargers they won't be a viable choice for anybody without a private parking space and charging facilities

Some significant changes will have to take place to enable a switch to mostly EVs and they're not happening within 10 years or 20 I'm certain.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by pauljh74

Considering Mazda have recently developed the Skyactiv-X engine, they and many other car makers aren't stopping production of ICE engines anytime soon. There were talks about the Mazda rotary being used as a range extender in an electric powered car.



The battery powered cars that have good range are pricey and the cheapest ones are good as city cars and not a good alternative to the ICE. They're too early in development to be considered a replacement for ICE vehicles



For people to willingly move to EV and away from ICE vehicles:



1. Range has to increase and charge times be reduced



2. Cost of EV vehicles needs to come down. Even for those who pickup a 10 year old used EV, you're faced with the prospect of needing a new battery. If you're budget limited, you're going to buy another used petrol vehicle, than take a risk with a more complex EV that could cost more to run when looking at overall running costs.



Companies like Tesla take steps to limit competition - which costs the owner more. Car makers in the US at least are required to share technical data on their cars with independent mechanics primarily because of emissions laws. EVs aren't subject to this and Tesla is reluctant to co-operate with independent repairers.



3. If governments legislate to ban ICE cars rather than encourage people to buy alternatives, there will be a backlash as used petrol vehicles are quickly made near worthless. If they wait for attrition - there's plenty of 1990's cars out there still going as daily drivers and a few that are older. It will take 20 years minimum. Any government moving to ban ICE vehicles won't have a job come the next election.



4. Infrastructure

As others have mentioned - the grid struggles when people go for their A/Cs in summer. EVs have 30-100kWh batteries - and probably some are higher. I use about 13 a day in my home including A/C in summer. People coming home en-masse and charging their EVs for the next day at work - they may only need to top up and use 25%, but that can still be a lot as a percentage of power used by a household. Then you can have multiple vehicles in 1 home.



People in flats and units park on the street - without widespread installation of kerbside chargers they won't be a viable choice for anybody without a private parking space and charging facilities



Some significant changes will have to take place to enable a switch to mostly EVs and they're not happening within 10 years or 20 I'm certain.

Without breaking down everything, I travel to Brissy and Melbourne often. I add 1 hour 15 minutes on average to my trip to take the EV. There is enough range. I can get from Sydney to Canberra on a single charge easily. By the time you stop for a loo break and grab a quick bite you're good to go. Sure the ICE is quicker, no doubt. But the time penalty isn't nearly as much as people think.

And in a city, they have plenty and more range.

I do agree though about apartments though I don't think it's inconceivable that overnight charging becomes a thing; most new apartments have a plug for each car spot, just need to upgrade to 20 amps.

Anyway, it's years away at the current uptake and I'm fine with that. I don't want to pay fuel excise and send my money to the Middle East if I can avoid it. Good Aussie fuel (coal) and sunlight for me.

[kypez]

Originally Posted by FTE217

kypez, thats the small minicule % you know , others are green types no doubt about it.
I see them around my burbs.
And yes re what some have in garages, I know of one is similar to yourself with ICE performance collection, so thats 2 I know of incl you .
This is typical of those with incomes to indulge and try something, nothing new about that to me.
I've pi$$ed money in other trial product others wouldn't even dream to do.
Sure I know they are quick, so are countless other ICE vehicles but battery is not my choice of ride to date, even to experiment but for the odd garden tool that I got the poops with went back to petrol.

They are more mature than trail products these days to be fair. Which is why we have another one on order that will be here next month. Epic fun though I did fill up the GTF to take out this weekend.

And yes, ICE are fun but this is a totally different type of fun. I plan to set a few records and break a few ICE hearts when the Performance 3 joins the stables. So much fun you forget about the noise (maybe that's just me).

Beauty lies in the eye of the beholder. I'm not stubborn (not saying you are either) enough to hate something just cause it's different. It's not an Us vs Them scenario.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by pauljh74

For people to willingly move to EV and away from ICE vehicles:

1. Range has to increase and charge times be reduced

Yup, I agreed. However, for a large proportion of drivers, the current EV range is satisfactory for daily commutes. When I had the Outlander PHEV, my daily commute was 40km (just inside its pure EV range). With some care, it use to do the entire run on batteries.

Now, I had to make sure that I plugged it in every night to recharge. But, you have to do that with your iPhone has well.

Originally Posted by pauljh74

2. Cost of EV vehicles needs to come down. Even for those who pickup a 10 year old used EV, you're faced with the prospect of needing a new battery. If you're budget limited, you're going to buy another used petrol vehicle, than take a risk with a more complex EV that could cost more to run when looking at overall running costs.

Yup, I agreed. That said, there are some interesting edge cases starting to appear in the USA with police departments

https://www.thedrive.com/news/34494/...nds-of-dollars.

And, true, battery replacement cost at the 10 year mark is a big outlay. However, the price of replacement batteries has fallen considerably. For example, the cost to replace the battery pack in a Prius/Camry is about half what it was ten years ago.

Also, keep in mind that ICE have their own "big costs" near the ten year mark. One has to look no further than the Territory thread, discussing vehicles being scrapped due to the cost of "consumables" like suspension bushings.

Originally Posted by pauljh74

Companies like Tesla take steps to limit competition - which costs the owner more. Car makers in the US at least are required to share technical data on their cars with independent mechanics primarily because of emissions laws. EVs aren't subject to this and Tesla is reluctant to co-operate with independent repairers.

I disagree with this comment. Without reproducing the story here ... there is quite a bit of information on the internet about the shenanigans of car dealers in the US blocking the entry of Telsa.

Further, there are reports on the internet that disagree with your comment that repair information is presently not available to independent repairers.

https://www.repairerdrivennews.com/2...e-to-everyone/

Originally Posted by pauljh74

3. If governments legislate to ban ICE cars rather than encourage people to buy alternatives, there will be a backlash as used petrol vehicles are quickly made near worthless. If they wait for attrition - there's plenty of 1990's cars out there still going as daily drivers and a few that are older. It will take 20 years minimum. Any government moving to ban ICE vehicles won't have a job come the next election.

Really???? I don't think that is going to happen in the short or medium term. If anything, a ban on ICE would immediately increase the market value of all ICE on the road.

The biggest issue that the government has got is that they are addicted to the taxes generated by ICE. One looming problem is how to effectively impose an equivalent tax on EV.

Originally Posted by pauljh74

4. Infrastructure
As others have mentioned - the grid struggles when people go for their A/Cs in summer. EVs have 30-100kWh batteries - and probably some are higher. I use about 13 a day in my home including A/C in summer. People coming home en-masse and charging their EVs for the next day at work - they may only need to top up and use 25%, but that can still be a lot as a percentage of power used by a household. Then you can have multiple vehicles in 1 home.

People in flats and units park on the street - without widespread installation of kerbside chargers they won't be a viable choice for anybody without a private parking space and charging facilities

Some significant changes will have to take place to enable a switch to mostly EVs and they're not happening within 10 years or 20 I'm certain.

There are plenty of reports by AEMO on the impact of EV on the electricity grid if you wish to do further reading.

I do agree with your comment about kerbside charging. There are more and more stories appearing on the internet about arguments occurring in the street about access to a charger. I only have to look up my street - cars parked in driveways, on footpaths, on the road - a good distance away from a possible charging point. I am not sure how this issue is going to pan out ...

[jpd80]

For the more mainstream buyer, I can see how a low cost petrol hybrid will help them immediately
by reducing fuel costs where an ICE is least efficient - encouraging that is a must do for governments.

If your commute distance is a bit longer but regularly slow traffic crawl along congested roads,
a PHEV or a BEV may be a better choice in that stop/go 0-20 kph bump and grind.

I will be very interested to see if any changes happen with utes and commercial vehicles, many of the utes
I see are little more than people carries that rarely if ever tow anything heavier than a jet ski or builder's trailer.
I think there's an opportunity to offer an efficient petrol hybrid and pick up even more market share by drawing
in new buyers that are willing to give new tech a go.

Hybrids and PHEVs get people used to electric power and giving immediate improvements in fuel efficiency,
It is s low impact on the energy grid and allows manufacturers to build more efficient vehicles while battery
technology evolves to super fast charging rates.

[kmav23]

Elon Musk is the 4th richest person in the world and the share price is almost $2,000.

The transition to Evs will be rapid in about 3 years when costs fall and capacity increases.

All the big money is being thrown into EVs, autonomy, 5g and batteries.

rapid advances is EVs autonomy car sharing etc..

Netflix Amazon uber YouTube..

Ice cars are on the way out

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by kmav23

Elon Musk is the 4th richest person in the world and the share price is almost $2,000.

The transition to Evs will be rapid in about 3 years when costs fall and capacity increases.

All the big money is being thrown into EVs, autonomy, 5g and batteries.

rapid advances is EVs autonomy car sharing etc..

Netflix Amazon uber YouTube..

Ice cars are on the way out

Only in Europe and China where they are ramming electric vehicles down people's throats,
ICEs will be with us in the form of hybrids much longer than most think, cheaper batteries
means that hybrids also become cheaper as an alternative to high priced BEVs. There's
no range anxiety, no need to recharge for hours, life goes on as before but with cheaper
fuel bills.