Slow news day? Let's stick the boot into Ford again

[ltd]

I put this in there, they actually published it.

More uninformed comment from wowsers and trolls prepared to stick the boot in. How much money did ford get off the government last year? None. How much did Holden? About 200 million. And yet here is more of the concerted effort by so called experts to undermine what Ford in Australia has achieved in preference for the bogans choice; Holden. As for Craig of Qld and other uphill gardeners of his ilk; you know nothing about cars and do for ignorance/stupidity what Stonehenge does for rocks. Facts are Ford was the only American auto maker to turn a profit and pay off debt in the last year. Derek Kuzak and Alan Mulally have both stated that Ford Oz has a future, obviously John Wormald is not only misinformed but impatient and wants to know now what will happen in 5 years irregardless of corporate secrecy so he can again defame a company under the pretence of "Journalism". Do a story on GMH you know; the company who uses government money and whose parent is bankrupt and now owned by the US government, or perhaps do a story on the millions of Toyota cars being recalled because of cheap outsourced parts that have led to deaths. I'll bet you don't do it though; **************.

[Wally]

Who knows just how much the makers get. To say Ford haven't had there snout in the trough is misleading. Just as their US parent can't claim it hasn't had US govt assistance either. Wordsmithing is one thing, facts tell another.

Originally Posted by 2009

Ford are working in partnership with both the Victorian and Federal governments on the initiative, with $42 million funding pledged from the Federal government’s Green Car Innovation Fund.

Originally Posted by 2009

An undisclosed contribution has also been made by the Victoria Government. Apart from the diesel and four-cylinder engines, the company will also introduce a new, more technologically advanced version of its LPG engine.

Originally Posted by 2009

Holden has received $149 million in funding to develop a new small car, the Cruze, at its Elizabeth Plant in South Australia from 2010, while early next year

Originally Posted by 2009

Toyota will begin selling a hybrid version of its locally-built Camry sedan with $30 million funding.

Originally Posted by 2009

ACART is a collaborative agreement between Ford and the University of Melbourne and also receives funding from the Victorian State Government’s Science.

Originally Posted by 2009

Ford Credit Australia Ltd. will receive up to A$550 million ... Oz Government Creating Special Funding to Support Dealer Lending

Originally Posted by 2006

and federal industry minister Ian MacDonald today announced that the federal government would be providing Ford Australia with a AU$52.5 million (US$40.4 million) "financial assistance package". Additional assistance will also be provided by the Victorian state government.

According to Mr Howard, the injection will secure Ford's manufacturing operations in Australia "for the long term".

Originally Posted by 2010

Under the ASCDP, which is funded through the Rudd government’s $6.2 billion New Car Plan for a Greener Future, the federal government will provide $20 million to 2012/13 in assistance to the Australian car components sector.

Other first-round grants announced last week include $1 million each to Ford Australia and GM Holden, and $1.8 million to Toyota Australia, “to work collaboratively with their main suppliers

[stang65]

is it just me or is the timing for this article a little bit suss that Holden is recalling 10,000 cruze cars http://www.news.com.au/business/brea...-1225842245706 I,m sure the last bad article we saw on ford was when holden had other issues.

[deez]

Very, very odd.

Anyone noticed that you can't comment on the Holden story, whereas the Ford story has stitched up more than 200 comments?

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by deez

Very, very odd.

Anyone noticed that you can't comment on the Holden story, whereas the Ford story has stitched up more than 200 comments?

Nah not really. When news.com.au is running a story from another service it rarely has a comments section.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by 2006
and federal industry minister Ian MacDonald today announced that the federal government would be providing Ford Australia with a AU$52.5 million (US$40.4 million) "financial assistance package". Additional assistance will also be provided by the Victorian state government.

According to Mr Howard, the injection will secure Ford's manufacturing operations in Australia "for the long term".

For anyone who doesn't remember,
Tom Gorman was floating the idea of Ford progressively pulling out of Australia and
unless they got funding for the next (FG) Falcon it would have been a BF with slight changes,
one if them would have been the V6 engine, quickly followed by a Taurus replacement in 2010....

Amazing what $52 million buys....

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by jpd80

For anyone who doesn't remember,
Tom Gorman was floating the idea of Ford progressively pulling out of Australia and
unless they got funding for the next (FG) Falcon it would have been a BF with slight changes,
one if them would have been the V6 engine, quickly followed by a Taurus replacement in 2010....

Amazing what $52 million buys....

A stay of execution ?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

A stay of execution ?

Maybe more like, "What is the best plan for Australia?"

I think everything is on the table at the moment, lots of soul searching.
Heck, all we have to do to keep the Falcon is back end F150/Mustang power trains.

Of course, I'm looking with glass half full eyes.....

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Maybe more like, "What is the best plan for Australia?"

I think everything is on the table at the moment, lots of soul searching.
Heck, all we have to do to keep the Falcon is back end F150/Mustang power trains.

Of course, I'm looking with glass half full eyes.....

I hope you're right, but I'm now thinking with "half empty" eyes...

I have a suspicion that a decision is very close to being made, and it will not be a good one for FoA. We are also so far away from the rest of the world...

"One Ford" also avoids the "duplication" of "model" programs and reduces the variety of similair vehicles.

I'm thinking that in Detroits eyes :

Ford Falcon Ute = Ford T6 Ranger
Ford Territory = All new Explorer based on the Taurus platform.
Ford Falcon Sedan = Taurus (FWD and AWD)
Ford Falcon Wagon = Ford Mondeo Wagon.

Now If FoA had of sucured the T6 Ranger as a Manufacturing program for the region (100,000 units per annum) I would have been more bullish on the future of their manufacturing here.

Unless there is something to fill the plant in 5 years time, the future is NOT Rosy IMO.

Lets hope something fills that void, otherwise there is no way $500 million to $1 Billion is going to be spent on a new platform for FoA.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

I hope you're right, but I'm now thinking with "half empty" eyes...

I have a suspicion that a decision is very close to being made, and it will not be a good one for FoA. We are also so far away from the rest of the world...

"One Ford" also avoids the "duplication" of "model" programs and reduces the variety of similair vehicles.

You know the journalists climb all over that "one Ford" statement but they miss the meaning entirely.
When Ford NA has it's bulk sales car platforms on different ones
to Ford Europe - that's mindless duplication.

When Ford Australia develops a low production regional car
cheaply by using the global parts bin, that's another thing.

So long as we fly under the radar, nothing will be said...

The fact that Ford Australia has a choice at all should
tell you much about the decision making progress.

It wasn't Ford head office that decided to cancel the I-6, it was Ford Australia (Gorman)
Ford Head office didn't object when FoA said the I-6 was cheaper than V6....
Kuzak and Mulally like the Falcon and Kuzak was personally involved in making I-4 Ecoboost happen.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by jpd80

You know the journalists climb all over that "one Ford" statement but they miss the meaning entirely.
When Ford NA has it's bulk sales car platforms on different ones
to Ford Europe - that's mindless duplication.

When Ford Australia develops a low production regional car
cheaply by using the global parts bin, that's another thing.

So long as we fly under the radar, nothing will be said...

It seems like Ford Australias new President Marin Burela may be the man to keep their "little ship" going.

I'm sure Uncle Geoff would have been fighting hard to get some new business and products into Ford Australia's plants.

They really do need some more volume though....

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

It seems like Ford Australias new President Marin Burela may be the man to keep their "little ship" going.

I'm sure Uncle Geoff would have been fighting hard to get some new business and products into Ford Australia's plants.

They really do need some more volume though....

Timing.
Letting Ford north America sort out their restructuring, they are full on with FWD/AWD
for their volume products, culling anything costing bucks by duplication / internal competition.

When they're done, they will revisit the niches - that's where the money is
and it's important for whatever we do to back end into their product plans.

[mik]

its hard to say what any big company will do, i`m a bit of an optimist , but i`ll go out on a limb and say we have the best falcons ever made at the moment , and with a heap of more economic engines and some sporty ones (possibly), and making them a more sought after bunch of vehicles, i see a future for them, the new v8 could be a big draw card, i would`nt worry about the nay sayers.

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Timing.
Letting Ford north America sort out their restructuring, they are full on with FWD/AWD
for their volume products, culling anything costing bucks by duplication / internal competition.

When they're done, they will revisit the niches - that's where the money is
and it's important for whatever we do to back end into their product plans.

I think we have a niche in this country for a large rwd car of what ever designation for quite a while yet. I found it interesting to hear that WA alone is looking at an increase of upwards of 400,000 workers to accomodate the upcoming resource boom, Qld. is well on the way to needing similar numbers. These workers won't all be coming from the existing labour pool, they will be short term visas, earning good $$$$, and possibly having to drive long distances in a relitively well priced, robust, family car. Sounds like quite a niche to me, does the Falcon fit the bill??

[Chilliman]

Logic dictates that if you're going to kill off a product, first you stop pouring money into its development.

Over the next 12-18months Falcon will have a new V8, EUROIV compliant I6, liquid injection LPG and an EcoBoost I4 while Territory will have a new diesel V6. I don't know what the journos make of it but that seems like an awful lot of money being poured into the locally made Ford product.

If you really want to kill off a product just look at how Ford went about it with the Crown Victoria:

1.Don't update the ancient 2-valve 4.6L V8 and 4-speed auto combo for the best part of a decade despite there being a much more powerful and efficient 3-valve V8 and 5-speed auto they could have lifted from other Ford products. Falcon has had its drivetrain reguarly updated, scoring more powerful and efficient engines each time and a 5-speed auto for the base model.

2. Barely change the styling at all - I don't think there have been any significant changes for Crown Vic since the late 1990s, meanwhile Falcon just received a refresh in 2008.

3. Withdraw from the private vehicle market and make fleet only sales as Ford did with Crown Vic - Falcon is going in a totally opposite direction with fewer fleet sales and more of the higher margin private retail sales of higher-spec models.

Note: The steps taken to kill-off Crown Vic are the same as what is happening to the Falcon Wagon that we all know is actually going to that scrap yard in the sky.

[Joe5619]

ashame this one does not get wider media coverage

http://www.geelongadvertiser.com.au/...6221_news.html

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

It seems like Ford Australias new President Marin Burela may be the man to keep their "little ship" going.

I'm sure Uncle Geoff would have been fighting hard to get some new business and products into Ford Australia's plants.

They really do need some more volume though....

Thats why I will always be heartbroken that Ford AU cancelled Focus production, it was a once in a generational chance to get significant volume into Broadmeadows. I cant believe someone in the US remembered little old Ford AU when talk of finding a new location for the next generation Focus production for the Asia Pacific region was being discussed.

The then-current Ford AU CEO worked his *** off in getting it here for us, and incredibly we got it! Since the Laser left Australian production I thought we would never see a locally made small Ford built here again, sadly I was right.

There was talk of the Ford Kuga also being built on the Focus production line here, and with 1200 Forresters a month being sold here, would have been very successful. There was also talk of an Aussie developed Focus ute to be built here like a modern day Brumby.

With significant Focus/Kuga production the Falcon could have moved more upmarket as it would not need to be sustaining production costs of a capital-intensive factory. The Falcon would become a premium sports sedan with the Focus/Kuga chasing the fleet, family and mainstream private markets.

Doubling the current production at Broadmeadows would have effectively halved the staggering production's fixed cost per vehicle and made local production of the falcon much more viable.... Ah what could of been.


Instead we now have an awkward situation of the Falcon caught between being a premium rear wheel drive vehicle and also being cheap enough to sustain local production by having enough volume built. You end up in a compromised situation where equipment and features cannot be included in the high-end falcons due to price but the base models are too expensive to get significant volume.

Working in mangement accounting in manufacturing in my younger years for a rolling stock company, I can tell you volume is so important to amortize the fixed costs per product. You need just as much employees, just as much incredibly expensive equipment and facilities to make 100 cars a day than you do to make 500 cars a day.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Thats why I will always be heartbroken that Ford AU cancelled Focus production, it was a once in a generational chance to get significant volume into Broadmeadows. I cant believe someone in the US remembered little old Ford AU when talk of finding a new location for the next generation Focus production for the Asia Pacific region was being discussed.

The then-current Ford AU CEO worked his *** off in getting it here for us, and incredibly we got it! Since the Laser left Australian production I thought we would never see a locally made small Ford built here again, sadly I was right.

Transferring Focus production from South Africa to Australia was always going to be difficult and relied
on approxmately $300 million in Ford funding plus significant tip in from the Howard government.
Gorman sold the idea of killing the I-6 and buying V6 engines and transmissions from North America
in return for funding approval for the South East Asian Focus contract, it came with a lot of strings attached.

Notice how as soon as the Falcon I-6 decision was reversed, the plug was pulled on the Focus contract?
Truth was that when Burela looked at the figures and saw what Gorman did in the name of One Ford,
he realized that none of the figures actually passed muster. The whole thing was a cynical "yes man"
answer to cost cutting designed to end the Falcon and Force FoA onto Focus production.

Burela saw right through it and with Mulally and Kuzak's consent reversed the decisions.
Focus production was logically moved to Thailand, and subsequently Derrick Kuzak took
particular interest in FoA received funding for Ecoboost I-4 Falcon - win win.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Transferring Focus production from South Africa to Australia was always going to be difficult and relied
on approxmately $300 million in Ford funding plus significant tip in from the Howard government.
Gorman sold the idea of killing the I-6 and buying V6 engines and transmissions from North America
in return for funding approval for the South East Asian Focus contract, it came with a lot of strings attached.

Notice how as soon as the Falcon I-6 decision was reversed, the plug was pulled on the Focus contract?
Truth was that when Burela looked at the figures and saw what Gorman did in the name of One Ford,
he realized that none of the figures actually passed muster. The whole thing was a cynical "yes man"
answer to cost cutting designed to end the Falcon and Force FoA onto Focus production.

Burela saw right through it and with Mulally and Kuzak's consent reversed the decisions.
Focus production was logically moved to Thailand, and subsequently Derrick Kuzak took
particular interest in FoA received funding for Ecoboost I-4 Falcon - win win.

Thanks jdp80 for the explanation, I never knew the reasoning behind it and was probably overzealous in thinking of it as a disaster, by what your saying we owe Bureal a lot then. Perhaps instead of being critical of the decision, I should be relieved.

[388cube_edxr8]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

But he was also the guy that built the business case for Fiesta, had it developed, brought it to market, came to Australia, gave local engine manufacture a stay of execution (and who knows, maybe even a future), secured corporate investment into the EB4, Diesel Territory and LiLPG, returned V8 Supercars to the Ford Oz marketting strategy, hired a motorsport manager, and is bringing the Coyote V8 here in partnership with Prodrive when a V8 Falcon could just as easily have been cancelled altogether.

I believe, as an Australian, that he has the same affinity with Australian tastes and needs as Geoff Polites who many here regard with fond memories. Burela is not the scapegoat you're looking for....


Lukeyson

*waves hand in a convincing manner*

"The Ford has a strong influence on the weak minded"

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Transferring Focus production from South Africa to Australia was always going to be difficult and relied
on approxmately $300 million in Ford funding plus significant tip in from the Howard government.
Gorman sold the idea of killing the I-6 and buying V6 engines and transmissions from North America
in return for funding approval for the South East Asian Focus contract, it came with a lot of strings attached.

Notice how as soon as the Falcon I-6 decision was reversed, the plug was pulled on the Focus contract?
Truth was that when Burela looked at the figures and saw what Gorman did in the name of One Ford,
he realized that none of the figures actually passed muster. The whole thing was a cynical "yes man"
answer to cost cutting designed to end the Falcon and Force FoA onto Focus production.

Burela saw right through it and with Mulally and Kuzak's consent reversed the decisions.
Focus production was logically moved to Thailand, and subsequently Derrick Kuzak took
particular interest in FoA received funding for Ecoboost I-4 Falcon - win win.

Not only that, but the C-car segment in this country is loaded with competition and is very price sensitive; cut throat pricing by asian and euro manufacturers with production in cheap labour countries like China, Thailand, Romania and Korea would have made it extremely difficult for a locally produced Focus to compete on price. And if it did manage to compete, profits would have suffered badly.

Which makes me wonder how and why Holden can make local production of the Cruze work.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Not only that, but the C-car segment in this country is loaded with competition and is very price sensitive; cut throat pricing by asian and euro manufacturers with production in cheap labour countries like China, Thailand, Romania and Korea would have made it extremely difficult for a locally produced Focus to compete on price. And if it did manage to compete, profits would have suffered badly.

Which makes me wonder how and why Holden can make local production of the Cruze work.

I don't think they can...

Lets see.

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

I don't think they can...

Lets see.

Neither do I. vztrt and I have discussed this at length, and neither of us can see how Holden can make a profit out of Cruze, let alone the Police interceptor. I think this is more Holden Headlines, with a retraction a month after, but the problem here with Cruze, is that Chairman Rudd is on board, and he has allocated money through the 'green car fund'. What Ford were doing was working. I think Burela is the right man for the job, however the rocket up the rear end of the marketing guys still needs some time. The FGII launch can't come soon enough, especially with the new advertising campaign.

Korea makes more sense for Holden to use as their Small Car centre, much the same way Thailand will produce Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo, Kuga and Ranger for Ford come 2012.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Brazen

T
Working in mangement accounting in manufacturing in my younger years for a rolling stock company, I can tell you volume is so important to amortize the fixed costs per product. You need just as much employees, just as much incredibly expensive equipment and facilities to make 100 cars a day than you do to make 500 cars a day.

Ah, that was the trap the old Ford fell into in Detroit before Mulally, he taught Ford that you don't need
as many employees and there's a lot of internal savings to be had by reducing excess capacity,
Ford NA saves something like near $5 billion each year by being right sized

“The most important thing that you do is size your production to real demand and not overproduce.”

“In the auto industry, they would keep the production up because they thought every cost was fixed.”
Alan Mulally

GM is still making this mistake, over producing to keep factories full and then using huge cash incentives
to shift excess product. Ford has learned a better way - right size production to true market need.

So Ford Australia reduced their work force dramatically and right size production to market need,
and following Mulally's mantra to the letter. Now, by all accounts, Ford Australia is much leaner and building
Falcon and Territory is much more viable to the point of allowing Saturday work, something that hasn't happened for nearly five years....

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Not only that, but the C-car segment in this country is loaded with competition and is very price sensitive; cut throat pricing by asian and euro manufacturers with production in cheap labour countries like China, Thailand, Romania and Korea would have made it extremely difficult for a locally produced Focus to compete on price. And if it did manage to compete, profits would have suffered badly.

Which makes me wonder how and why Holden can make local production of the Cruze work.

All of which was known when Gorman pushed for Focus production here, the real nail in the coffin
was the softening of US dollar against the Aussie, that makes exports extremely difficult...
I recall that Ford were criticised by Toyota who couldn't see how Focus could be built profitably in Australia,
so if Toyota can't do it and Ford pulled out, it doesn't look good for Cruze, Holden's viability savior,
remember the viability plan put forward to US politicians why GM and its subsidiaries should be saved?

It was Cruze, not Commodore that made Holden Aussie production viable,
but now it looks like Holden want that second shift at Elizabeth for Caprice PPV for USA - go figure>>:thinking:

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by jpd80

It was Cruze, not Commodore that made Holden Aussie production viable,
but now it looks like Holden want that second shift at Elizabeth for Caprice PPV for USA - go figure>>:thinking:

John,

Australian production for an American police car will never happen. I'm sorry, but the Americans will never allow it. GM may have the product, but the Unions (and not just the UAW) will struggle to see reason in importing a bespoke police car into the States, when Ford and Chrysler will have their own, locally produced cars, which do much the same work. Let's ignore the exchange rate for the time being as well. That alone should have economists looking at Holden shaking their heads. You don't export to a country when parity in the dollar is a when, not an if.

Ford, in Australia have been extremely lucky. Mostly through poor management have had their business shielded from the Global Financial Crisis, which have hurt the two companies whose survival hinged on exports, not their own local market. Ford had solid products, they just needed solid marketing to get the products out to the buying public.

For Holden to dedicate 50% of their workforce, and 50% of their manufacturing on two cars that can not possibly turn a profit is ludicrous. I don't know where Holden's management did their training, but you would imagine GM had learned their lessons after the bankruptcy. Apparently not.

I think what Burela is doing on Saturdays is genius. Saturdays can be used as a toe in the water for increasing production, and if it works, why not push back above the 300 mark. They are going to need to bite the bullet soon enough when the new Territory arrives anyway.

[FERG_51]

All this stuff is very interesting, but correct me if im wrong. If one of the big 3 closes down in AUS, doesnt that mean that the other 2 will not survive either. Dont they all need each other to survive?

[gokhan]

Originally Posted by FERG_51

All this stuff is very interesting, but correct me if im wrong. If one of the big 3 closes down in AUS, doesnt that mean that the other 2 will not survive either. Dont they all need each other to survive?

Mitsubishi's exit hasn't seemed to affect the other 3... or has it I don't know... It's the component suppliers that would be affected the most I imagine.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by FERG_51

All this stuff is very interesting, but correct me if im wrong. If one of the big 3 closes down in AUS, doesnt that mean that the other 2 will not survive either. Dont they all need each other to survive?

No not really. Holden and Ford could get by just fine without Toyotuh. And if anyone is going to exit the (manufacturing) market next, it will be the big T.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Paxton

John,

Australian production for an American police car will never happen. I'm sorry, but the Americans will never allow it. GM may have the product, but the Unions (and not just the UAW) will struggle to see reason in importing a bespoke police car into the States, when Ford and Chrysler will have their own, locally produced cars, which do much the same work. Let's ignore the exchange rate for the time being as well. That alone should have economists looking at Holden shaking their heads. You don't export to a country when parity in the dollar is a when, not an if.

Ford, in Australia have been extremely lucky. Mostly through poor management have had their business shielded from the Global Financial Crisis, which have hurt the two companies whose survival hinged on exports, not their own local market. Ford had solid products, they just needed solid marketing to get the products out to the buying public.

For Holden to dedicate 50% of their workforce, and 50% of their manufacturing on two cars that can not possibly turn a profit is ludicrous. I don't know where Holden's management did their training, but you would imagine GM had learned their lessons after the bankruptcy. Apparently not.

I think what Burela is doing on Saturdays is genius. Saturdays can be used as a toe in the water for increasing production, and if it works, why not push back above the 300 mark. They are going to need to bite the bullet soon enough when the new Territory arrives anyway.

Great post Andrew and I agree 100%

GM's corporate philosophy is to keep factory order books full, it's the only game they know and their
ego will not allow then to accept that it's wrong. I'd don't know whether they will make a profit or not
on local Cruze production or Caprice police exports, whether that see the light of day or not.

The point is that Ford and Holden (GM) have come at local viability from two completely different directions,
Holden always looks the goods in the press but seem to come up empty on the balance sheet.
Those 40,000 Pontiac G8s delivered in 2008 added practically nothing to Holden's profits. Was it just job creation or justifying the viability of Elizabeth plant?

Ford on the other hand backs local products here and North America to do the job in respective locations,
we reject the notion of Taurus/Crown Victoria coming here, so imagine the the US Ford fans feelings of
Falcon going there or worse still, Mustang a US icon built here and sold there - not in this universe..

No, I think Ford Australia is taking the measured view that allows them to compete locally with less vehicles,
Holden could not survive on the numbers FoA builds. That's why the press is writing FoA's demise every other day, they drink Holden's kool Aid and don't understand lean manufacturing.

Holden will have a new lighter VF out soon enough, they need it so what will Ford do to match them,
maybe 6-speed auto across the board and Ecoboost I-4, something 3.0SIDI can't hope to match.

[Bossxr8]

Looks like Toyotas engine plant will be the next to go. They start work on new engines 2 years out from its release, and its now 18 months away from release and they have not done any work on it, and have made absolutely no comment to the workers about it. They are assuming its light out or they would have heard otherwise.

Expect an announcement in the not to distant future. Wouldn't be too hard to source the Camry engine from another one of the 8 or so places that build the Camry engine, just like Mistsubishi did when they shut down their engine plant and bought the 380's V6 in from OS.

What that means for production of the 2012 Camry I don't know, they are still trying to get a contract to build it here.