Aussies dead in Shot down plane crash over Ukraine.

[biased99]

Originally Posted by MrXR8

that was the point i was trying to make in a subtle manner

Yep, and you were posting your response as I was posting mine...

[MrXR8]

unfortunately armed conflicts will always happen and when it does innocent people get hurt or killed like we saw today.the only consolation is that the Boeing 777's pasanger capacity is 440 Max. so the death toll could have been higher

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by MrXR8

he is blaming Ukraine and said if they ended this a long time ago when the russians stepped in this wouldnt have happened.

Russia lost allot of territory post Soviet Union and many argue those lost territories would be better off under Russia's wing. With the living conditions in allot of post soviet countries atm I find it hard to argue otherwise but this is a direct act of terrorism. Despite the civil war there is no way the russian separatists need to start targeting foreign aircraft atm.

[biased99]

Originally Posted by MrXR8

unfortunately armed conflicts will always happen and when it does innocent people get hurt or killed like we saw today.the only consolation is that the Boeing 777's pasanger capacity is 440 Max. so the death toll could have been higher

Agree with your premise, but questions need to be/will be asked about people "selecting" targets with an (obviously) non-miltary jet profile in a highly commercially trafficked piece of airspace...Personal view is that there was "pressure" to bring "something" down...and appropriate attention to target selection wasn't paid.

That's just my personal view, however...

[MrXR8]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

Russia lost allot of territory post Soviet Union and many argue those lost territories would be better off under Russia's wing. With the living conditions in allot of post soviet countries atm I find it hard to argue otherwise but this is a direct act of terrorism. Despite the civil war there is no way the russian separatists need to start targeting foreign aircraft.

i agree..... they assumed it was a cargo plane supplying their enemy and shot it down. but this is all speculation ATM

[MrXR8]

Originally Posted by biased99

Agree with your premise, but questions need to be/will be asked about people "selecting" targets with an (obviously) non-miltary jet profile in a highly commercially trafficked piece of airspace...Personal view is that there was "pressure" to bring "something" down...and appropriate attention to target selection wasn't paid.

That's just my personal view, however...

agreed however on the flip side, many military establishments use boeing 737/747/777 as cargo and supply planes.

[biased99]

Originally Posted by MrXR8

agreed however on the flip side, many military establishments use boeing 737/747/777 as cargo and supply planes.

Those involved in this conflict? I'd have thought the bulk of transport/combat aircraft in this situation would be (primarily) Russian in origin...?

That said, I'd imagine that those aircraft would have similar "profiles" (i.e cruising speed/altitude etc), so point taken...

[BHDOGS]

The bigger worry is theres nothing to stop a russian nutty with sympathy for the musilm terrorists cause to send some of these buk missles there way something more to worry about it could be anywhere anytime.

[Dash_XR]

Originally Posted by MrXR8

i agree..... they assumed it was a cargo plane supplying their enemy and shot it down. but this is all speculation ATM

Putin has such a strong hand atm it's hard to tell what will happen. The US can't handle this alone (although many expect them too) but this time I think post Cold War the rest of the world won't back them like last time. Slow and steady will win the race for Russia.

[MrXR8]

from the ground they would have seen a plane flying in what they would have thought as a war zone. in a size and configuration of a large military cargo plane. or so their brain would have thought.believe me im not siding with them by no means, but you do need to play devil's advocate in these matters as (we wern't there)i feel for all parties that lost loved ones and ill be honnest, when i saw it on the tv this morning i got very emotional. went through anger then sadness etc.

[Davehoos]

wife came in this morning and turned of the radio telling me that an airline with Australians been shot down.
the issue for here was to get the kids ready for school without the TV on to upset the m before facts came in.

My 4 years old running around BOOMING stuff-as I did when I was little.

My little contact with this part of the world has been post WW11 refugees and some very different post soviet economic refugees.

[biased99]

Originally Posted by MrXR8

from the ground they would have seen a plane flying in what they would have thought as a war zone. in a size and configuration of a large military cargo plane. or so their brain would have thought.believe me im not siding with them by no means, but you do need to play devil's advocate in these matters as (we wern't there)i feel for all parties that lost loved ones and ill be honnest, when i saw it on the tv this morning i got very emotional. went through anger then sadness etc.

I'm assuming this is directed at me, so I'll just say that there is no argument ...we can speculate all we like on what happened and why. Fact is almost 300 people are dead, who had nothing to do with this conflict...

Gut feel is that this event will have much broader ramifications, which we are yet to fully understand and appreciate.

Regards,

Michael

[MrXR8]

Originally Posted by biased99

I'm assuming this is directed at me, so I'll just say that there is no argument ...we can speculate all we like on what happened and why. Fact is almost 300 people are dead, who had nothing to do with this conflict...

Gut feel is that this event will have much broader ramifications, which we are yet to fully understand and appreciate.

Regards,

Michael

was just a comment directed at the direction that the thread was heading in.

[MITCHAY]

I would have thought if you had the hardware to bring down an aircraft and particularly at that height then you would have the hardware to tell you what you were shooting it at.

I don't know what angle they would be playing at in shooting down a commercial aircraft but was it really an accident?

[biased99]

Originally Posted by MrXR8

was just a comment directed at the direction that the thread was heading in.

Geez, are you sitting on this thread? (j/k).

Seriously, your posts are thoughtful and well-reasoned, so I think we're in reasonably broad agreement.

[MrXR8]

from 7 miles high without satelite imagery there is no way to tell.

[Charliewool]

Qantas, Emirates and Cathay Pacific have been flying around the Ukraine conflict for months citing safety before the extra time & fuel costs.
We all look for the best deal when travelling.. Maybe now we'll look further than simply price?

[Dash_XR]

Many officials are saying a qualified operator can define targets at that range anyway. Which just opens up more questions really. These aren't just weapons you can walk down to the local 7/11 and pick up.

[MrXR8]

yeah Biased its just something i know a bit about. forign weapons systems and tactics. so i thought i would (sit on this thread) so no one jumps to any conclusions.

[MrXR8]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

Many officials are saying a qualified operator can define targets at that range anyway. Which just opens up more questions really. These aren't just weapons you can walk down to the local 7/11 and pick up.

yes you can define an outline of an aircraft from that height. but you cant see if it is a commercial airliner or not. you wont be able to see any markings with out using a satelite.

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by csv8

American aircraft were told not too fly over Ukraine in April none have done since, what did America know then ??

Just on that... Wonder what the situation would be now if it had of been an American plane with 300 yanks on board blown out of the sky??
(Shudder to think)

[biased99]

Originally Posted by MrXR8

from 7 miles high without satelite imagery there is no way to tell.

Stop "needling me" (LOL). The corollary to that argument is is that "without satellite imagery", should one be taking the risk that what they are shooting at is - indeed - not what they should be shooting at? (And that's before we get into dissecting the "highly commercially trafficked airspace" discussion)...

Two thoughts occur to me "post your post"...

1) If you "can't tell", why fire?
2) Why fire (at all) in an airspace known to be heavily trafficked by commercial airliners?

These are just questions which occur; no angst.

Regards,
Michael

[NTF6]

Originally Posted by MrXR8

agreed however on the flip side, many military establishments use boeing 737/747/777 as cargo and supply planes.

And they don't have fighter jets than can tail a plane and get a visual before blowing away 298 people?

[Dash_XR]

The conflict hasn't even escalated to the point of shooting down enemy planes. That's why this is such a shock to everyone.

[MrXR8]

officials also said that the aircraft was scattered over 8 kms of ground which only tells me that it was a large surface to air missile. it would have detonated before impact to cause the most damage and disintergrate half the aircraft.the pilots would have had 30 seconds notice at best. all commercial aircraft are fitted with a warning when missile locked.

[MrXR8]

Originally Posted by biased99

Stop "needling me" (LOL). The corollary to that argument is is that "without satellite imagery", should one be taking the risk that what they are shooting at is - indeed - not what they should be shooting at? (And that's before we get into dissecting the "highly commercially trafficked airspace" discussion)...

Two thoughts occur to me "post your post"...

1) If you "can't tell", why fire?
2) Why fire (at all) in an airspace known to be heavily trafficked by commercial airliners?

These are just questions which occur; no angst.

Regards,
Michael

desperate people fighting with weapons they know to some extent. they are desperate..... basically. this tells us that they are not russian troops but militia independent or working with.,.... who knows

[MrXR8]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

The conflict hasn't even escalated to the point of shooting down enemy planes. That's why this is such a shock to everyone.

i agree. but at the same time a warning was sent out not to travel through that airspace. why were they there??? some airlines put the mighty$ before lives. now yes they havent escolated to this but there was a posibility

[NTF6]

Originally Posted by MrXR8

from 7 miles high without satelite imagery there is no way to tell.

^^^^ that's absolute rubbish !! See my post above.

[MrXR8]

Originally Posted by NTF6

And they don't have fighter jets than can tail a plane and get a visual before blowing away 298 people?

they are militia not working directly with the Russians and they are directly against the Ukraine. so they do not have aircraft in large numbers.so they wont use them to trail a plane. cost too much and remember they would think the airspace is not inuse for commercial airliners because in their mind it is a warzone.

[MrXR8]

Originally Posted by NTF6

^^^^ that's absolute rubbish !! See my post above.

so how would you tell?