Ford will bounce back: Graziano - Page 3

prydey · 11-03-2011, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jixel 78

The Falcons six is too big, thirsty

sorry, but i just can't agree with this bit. it is poor public perception, not poor fuel economy. do people ever critisize the economy of the honda accord? it has wizz bang technology (cylinder deactivation) and yet the falcon is just as economical.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jixel 78

Sure it goes good, looks good but its engine isnt going to be exploited to its potential on an epic cross country road trip when its cheaper to catch a plane

only cheaper to catch a plane if you are travelling alone, and have a means of transport upon arrival. if you have a wife and kids, which many buyers of large family cars do have, then they still offer great value travelling across the country and you have transport when you get to your destination. much cheaper than 4 return air fares + multiple weeks of car rental.

FPV GTHO · 12-03-2011, 01:07 AM

If Ecoboost is a hit with not only fleets but private buyers, and LPI maintains power with respectable economy, are Ford prepared to start building the majority of NA I6 as LPI? I can see a situation where the only buyers prefering the petrol NA I6 are the rural types who either cant rely on dedicated LPG or have their issues with turbo machinery.

jpd80 · 12-03-2011, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV GTHO

If Ecoboost is a hit with not only fleets but private buyers, and LPI maintains power with respectable economy, are Ford prepared to start building the majority of NA I6 as LPI? I can see a situation where the only buyers prefering the petrol NA I6 are the rural types who either cant rely on dedicated LPG or have their issues with turbo machinery.

LPG is not a big hit with new car buyers, that is one of the main reasons Ford opted for the EB I-4
and because of volume, it's also much cheaper to source than the V6 diesel.

Strangely enough, even though Ford swears black and blue that EB I-4 is not a replacement for the I-6,
a lot of people will be viewing it that way and in that regard, maybe it's just the image change needed...

EcoLPI will be very strong in fleets sales, others in the know put LPG at 20-30% of sales in good months

Dr Smith · 12-03-2011, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Strangely enough, even though Ford swears black and blue that EB I-4 is not a replacement for the I-6,
a lot of people will be viewing it that way and in that regard, maybe it's just the image change needed...

So true, a 4cyl no matter what it's economy will still have a perception of being more economical then a six just on the "numbers" game, bit like buying something for $799 vs $800...the $799 was a bargain.

Bucknaked · 12-03-2011, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

So true, a 4cyl no matter what it's economy will still have a perception of being more economical then a six just on the "numbers" game, bit like buying something for $799 vs $800...the $799 was a bargain.

People see that the car uses 10 litres per 100 and that's all they see when they compare it to a more economical car that uses 7 litres per hundred. You still have to buy that 7 litres. The real difference is 3 litres. So it's going to cost you an extra $4.50 per 100 to be more comfortable, have more power, bigger boot space, more leg room, better technology and actually enjoy what your driving. Small price to pay.

The economy is the difference you pay. Which is minimal.

My Mondeo XR5 returns me 9.4 per 100 around town and on the highway I get mid 7's. How much more economical is your average 4 banger. My car has good power, a great level of comfort and can sit on 110 all day with ease.

jpd80 · 12-03-2011, 08:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bucknaked

People see that the car uses 10 litres per 100 and that's all they see when they compare it to a more economical car that uses 7 litres per hundred. You still have to buy that 7 litres. The real difference is 3 litres. So it's going to cost you an extra $4.50 per 100 to be more comfortable, have more power, bigger boot space, more leg room, better technology and actually enjoy what your driving. Small price to pay.

The economy is the difference you pay. Which is minimal.

My Mondeo XR5 returns me 9.4 per 100 around town and on the highway I get mid 7's. How much more economical is your average 4 banger. My car has good power, a great level of comfort and can sit on 110 all day with ease.

Perception is everything in the market place, it's also why Falcon's sales are suffering more than Commodore's.
when the better car cannot match 9.1 l/100km it's obvious that fleet managers are prioritising economy and price.

Btw, the new 2.0 Ecoboost engine in UK Mondeo averages 7.5 litres/100km
compared to the previous I-5 turbos 9.4 litres/100 km, that's a huge jump in economy.

phillyc · 13-03-2011, 04:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Perception is everything in the market place, it's also why Falcon's sales are suffering more than Commodore's.
when the better car cannot match 9.1 l/100km it's obvious that fleet managers are prioritising economy and price.

Btw, the new 2.0 Ecoboost engine in UK Mondeo averages 7.5 litres/100km
compared to the previous I-5 turbos 9.4 litres/100 km, that's a huge jump in economy.

Economy is king. It's much easier to say we'll take the larger car which uses 9.1L versus the medium which uses 8.8L/100km than it is to justify 9.9L/100km.

Mondeo sales are really picking up with diesel and wagon. Do you think they should've added EcoBoost to Mondeo already? Essentially pre-warming the market for Falcon. Or do you think the risk / overlap of the two models would be too much, causing undue pressure on Falcon sales?

jpd80 · 13-03-2011, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

Economy is king. It's much easier to say we'll take the larger car which uses 9.1L versus the medium which uses 8.8L/100km than it is to justify 9.9L/100km.

Mondeo sales are really picking up with diesel and wagon. Do you think they should've added EcoBoost to Mondeo already? Essentially pre-warming the market for Falcon. Or do you think the risk / overlap of the two models would be too much, causing undue pressure on Falcon sales?

They could always import the Mondeo with 1.6 Ecoboost and stop/start technology.
A midsized car with good power, outstanding fuel economy and pretty green credentials...

**Elks** · 13-03-2011, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phillyc

Economy is king. It's much easier to say we'll take the larger car which uses 9.1L versus the medium which uses 8.8L/100km than it is to justify 9.9L/100km.

And then you will buy the a bottle of Coke for $4.00 that you could get from the supermarket for less than 1/2 that.

barra265t · 13-03-2011, 11:32 PM

Was reading a book on the beginnings of Ford Australia, and apparently a lot of effort was put into establishing the brand. Dealerships were set up in rural towns and salespersons actively promoted the vehicles. There was this one story that really stood out. A farmer in Beaufort had been showing interest in buying a Ford vehicle but lamented the fact that it wouldn't fit through his garage door. He woke up the next day to find a team of workmen enlarging his garage door. Needless to say, the sale was made that day. If Ford are ever going to bounce back, they need to get back into this sort of spirit...

vztrt · 14-03-2011, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

I think you'll find that 8000 figure was referring to Holden, not Ford....

I was referring it to being Holden stock as well.

Bossxr8 · 14-03-2011, 08:56 PM

Ford have recently hired their 1000th engineer and are searching for more engineers and designers. More than Holden have, so they are certainly doing a heap of development work on a range of various projects, local and for OS.

jpd80 · 14-03-2011, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Ford have recently hired their 1000th engineer and are searching for more engineers and designers. More than Holden have, so they are certainly doing a heap of development work on a range of various projects, local and for OS.

That certainly doesn't sound like a division left out in the cold.....
I suppose they now make more income internally designing stuff for elsewhere
than any possible profit from Falcon and Territory, the shape of things to come?

**Fordman1** · 14-03-2011, 10:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

That certainly doesn't sound like a division left out in the cold.....
I suppose they now make more income internally designing stuff for elsewhere
than any possible profit from Falcon and Territory, the shape of things to come?

Not much happening internally from what I hear.

But if Ford manufacturing ends in Oz, so will PD.

It's a relatively easy to "move" engineers to another country

Smoke Pursuit · 14-03-2011, 10:43 PM

Ford are telling dealers november for GAS, 2.0 4 and FG2.. Thats another 8 months before we will see any sign of recovery...

As for pricing they are not doing anything to save themselves in regards to that atm..

XR6 sedans 36 kay?? last year you could buy Euro 3's new for 29 kay.. they are only getting older 2010 plate euro 4's.

They need a strategy to move some stock. Time to bring out XR6's again for $29,990 with 5 year warranties...

jpd80 · 14-03-2011, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Not much happening internally from what I hear.

But if Ford manufacturing ends in Oz, so will PD.

It's a relatively easy to "move" engineers to another country

So what would Ford spend almost a billion dollars on developing FoA as an engineering Centre of Excellence
with new test labs and engineering facilities only to shut it all down. Short answer is that they wouldn't.

Road_Warrior · 14-03-2011, 11:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

So what would Ford spend almost a billion dollars on developing FoA as an engineering Centre of Excellence
with new test labs and engineering facilities only to shut it all down. Short answer is that they wouldn't.

Exactly. And they wouldn't be continuing this momentum if PD had a limited lifespan and we all know that PD and the manufacturing capability have a symbiotic relationship.

Swordsman88 · 14-03-2011, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Ford are telling dealers november for GAS, 2.0 4 and FG2.. Thats another 8 months before we will see any sign of recovery...

As for pricing they are not doing anything to save themselves in regards to that atm..

XR6 sedans 36 kay?? last year you could buy Euro 3's new for 29 kay.. they are only getting older 2010 plate euro 4's.

They need a strategy to move some stock. Time to bring out XR6's again for $29,990 with 5 year warranties...

I thought i read on here somewhere that gas was being fastracked and 'would not wait till the update'? So which one is it? Ford will be hurting in terms of trying to keep sales up with no LPG and the FG getting a bit older. I suspect gas will get pushed out before november but that is just a hunch...

Smoke Pursuit · 14-03-2011, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

I thought i read on here somewhere that gas was being fastracked and 'would not wait till the update'? So which one is it? Ford will be hurting in terms of trying to keep sales up with no LPG and the FG getting a bit older. I suspect gas will get pushed out before november but that is just a hunch...

They said definately no gas before FG2...

DanielXR8 · 14-03-2011, 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DASH GT

They said definately no gas before FG2...

This kind of thinking from the same people who knew the ZF gearbox was the most liked and praised automatic transmission ever put into an Australian Ford.

Their solution to the reality that they had accidently made the right decision was to take the most anticipated and in all likelyhood the most popular variant of the new Territory in the form of the diesel and make sure it didnt come with the ZF everyone liked.

Winning!

Their thinking, was basically because the Territory could be really popular in a diesel, they had better cost cut it now.

Winning!

Charlie Sheen has a future at Ford Australia.

Dr Smith · 15-03-2011, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

This kind of thinking from the same people who knew the ZF gearbox was the most liked and praised automatic transmission ever put into an Australian Ford.

Their solution to the reality that they had accidently made the right decision was to take the most anticipated and in all likelyhood the most popular variant of the new Territory in the form of the diesel and make sure it didnt come with the ZF everyone liked.

Winning!

Their thinking, was basically because the Territory could be really popular in a diesel, they had better cost cut it now.

Winning!

Charlie Sheen has a future at Ford Australia.

I believe the A6 sitting behind the td V6 in the new Terry is a Ford US built licenced copy of the ZF anyway so I would say the doom and gloom isn't warranted.

jpd80 · 15-03-2011, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Exactly. And they wouldn't be continuing this momentum if PD had a limited lifespan and we all know that PD and the manufacturing capability have a symbiotic relationship.

Yes, look at Holden and Zeta range in VE then VF to 2018, 12 years out of one evolved platform.
I now suspect that the FG design will evolve into the next Falcon platform and that
could be a major driver to save it as well as embracing US power trains and electricals.

Joe5619 · 15-03-2011, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DASH GT

They need a strategy to move some stock. Time to bring out XR6's again for $29,990 with 5 year warranties...

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO..

That is exactly what is killing the Falcon if you ask me... Resale prices!! The only way to fix this problem is to keep pricing firm for a long (llloooonnnggg) period of time.. XR6 at 30K does not help anyone.. Ford’s current position of holding firm (sort of) on pricing is the best thing I've seen from Ford in a long time. They need to think outside the box & solve it some other way!! 3.9% financing or 5 year warranty or ???????, but 30K XR6 is NOT the solution.

Smoke Pursuit · 15-03-2011, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joe5619

NO, NO, NO, NO, NO..

That is exactly what is killing the Falcon if you ask me... Resale prices!! The only way to fix this problem is to keep pricing firm for a long (llloooonnnggg) period of time.. XR6 at 30K does not help anyone.. Ford’s current position of holding firm (sort of) on pricing is the best thing I've seen from Ford in a long time. They need to think outside the box & solve it some other way!! 3.9% financing or 5 year warranty or ???????, but 30K XR6 is NOT the solution.

Well it's a bit hard when they were doing it last year, to prop prices up without a series II with some new goodies..

Better off selling cars at break even then not selling them at all.. Costs about $6 a day to have an XR6 sitting there (in finance costs). If you have 4000 of them siting there they cost you $24,000 a day!!! ($168,000 a week!) Higher end cars like G6ET and FPV's can cost up to $12 a day.. you soon see why discounting them to near cost is a good option as you dont accrue finance costs (which you will definately never get back) and you keep your production line moving.

3.9% finance does sell cars (to dumb people) but at the end of the day to sell a Falcon with $3.9% finance Ford would have to be selling XR6's for around $42 k to cover the shotfall on the finance term.

Joe5619 · 15-03-2011, 10:38 AM

Well, put it this way.. For me, resale value it the single biggest factor for me in me buying another new Falcon or not.. I have been killed on the current FG I own & dont want to do it again if I get the same result.. Discounting the crap out of new cars helps no one long term...

**Elks** · 15-03-2011, 01:19 PM

Value Add.

T

That way you protect the resale which is so precious not just to Joe5619, but the 10's of thousands of people who have novated leases on the old 3 years with a 50% residual. Nothing does some ones head in like having to write a cheque to get out of their car.

Ways to do this...

1. Throw in 3 year servicing, include brakes and 1 set of tyres if you must. Lower cost motoring without lowering the price.

2. Extended warranty, as above..

3. Trade in bonus, controlled at wholesale level. Making sure payouts are achieved. How many FG, BF or even VE owners would swap out there car tomorrow if only they could get out of their old car.

4. Even throw in a Holiday.

The headline price needs to remain..

My 2c

prydey · 15-03-2011, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

Yes, look at Holden and Zeta range in VE then VF to 2018, 12 years out of one evolved platform.

they are all doing it now, which means the R & D costs are spread out even further making it much more profitable over the life of the model. the billion dollars spent on the VE, + the upgrades, is amortised over a longer period. the car companies just can't afford to keep pumping out a new shape or model every couple of years.

ford are no different, and even toyota with camry and aurion.

the VE is 5years old and is ageing very well. falcon is almost 3 and still current shape.

not sure the effect this has on resale though as you can buy a 3 year old car, saving $10000, and still have a current shape vehicle which average joe can't tell from a new one.

Bossxr8 · 15-03-2011, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

This kind of thinking from the same people who knew the ZF gearbox was the most liked and praised automatic transmission ever put into an Australian Ford.

Their solution to the reality that they had accidently made the right decision was to take the most anticipated and in all likelyhood the most popular variant of the new Territory in the form of the diesel and make sure it didnt come with the ZF everyone liked.

Winning!

Their thinking, was basically because the Territory could be really popular in a diesel, they had better cost cut it now.

Winning!

Charlie Sheen has a future at Ford Australia.

Its a license built ZF, it works exactly the same way, so why not use it if its cheaper.

I would put money down that no one could pick the difference between the 6R80 and the ZF.

**Fordman1** · 16-03-2011, 04:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpd80

So what would Ford spend almost a billion dollars on developing FoA as an engineering Centre of Excellence
with new test labs and engineering facilities only to shut it all down. Short answer is that they wouldn't.

A Billion dollars haven't been spent here on developing PD ..... and T6 program cost over runs have not been taken to well by the 'powers that be'.

The test labs and the new centre are worth about 40 million from memory. Most new engineers are on contract - does that paint a picture ?

With Taxpayers money PD would probably already be "gone". There is no reason that PD can't be done at another centre elsewhere (the UK or Germany for starters).

Lets see who's closer to the mark on the outlook - bookmark this post..

Ford will always paint a rosy picture, the true story is less positive than we may be led to believe !!

Swordsman88 · 16-03-2011, 05:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

A Billion dollars haven't been spent here on developing PD ..... and T6 program cost over runs have not been taken to well by the 'powers that be'.

The test labs and the new centre are worth about 40 million from memory. Most new engineers are on contract - does that paint a picture ?

With Taxpayers money PD would probably already be "gone". There is no reason that PD can't be done at another centre elsewhere (the UK or Germany for starters).

Lets see who's closer to the mark on the outlook - bookmark this post..

Ford will always paint a rosy picture, the true story is less positive than we may be led to believe !!

You clearly have acces to internal info that most of us do not. I'm not going to dispute what you have said because i dont' have any proof of anything different.I also agree it'as hardly surprsing that companies paint a rosy picture when it may be very different.

On the other hand, i would like to find proof of any program that hasn't had cost overuns or run late. Alot of people within ford at various level (public and private) have espoused the merits of the Ford Aus PD...be it on T6, local (Falcon) projects or future posibilities. While PD is linked to production one does not necessarily save the other by default. Moreover, you would need to look at 'other' sites the development would need to be done in. You site UK or germany but given the sorts of cars developed at ford aus (RWD/commercial) this is not likely given the lack of expertise in said areas. Witih UK, germany, dearborn and aus the major PD sites you will see that at the very least you need one site per region. If they canned aus PD you would have no PD in ford asia pacific. Thus, you would most likely need to make the case for a new PD site (china??) that is also associated with local manufacturing, with its own set up costs.

Clearly Ford AUs needs to keep local production going through their own sales...things aren't sustainable at the current rate. BUT i think local PD is safe for the immediate future because asia pacific will continue to need region specific versions of one ford products (as well as local rwd expertise) and at present there is no where else in asia to do the work....