TRD Aurion bites the dust!

[irsa76]

Originally Posted by phoonfan

might i dare mention, Lexcen, Avalon and now Aurion... :togo:

Perhaps they should stick to what they know best, making dull small cars for the masses! :eclipsee_

Compared to other Toyotas they are sales flops. Apart from the Lexen the cars are fine, it's just the Australian large car market prefers large RWD sedans. Apparently the Aurion could have been RWD if Toyota Australia had the budget.

[5.4 GT]

Originally Posted by flappist

Thank you DaveO. I quite liked my BOSS powered GT-P which I owned while you were at high school. You have left school now haven't you?

I also had some quite interesting discussions with the actual engineers who designed the BOSS a few years ago and one of the things mentioned was how despite there being any engineering issues, marketing have killed and/or changed products before they got released.

I have left school, however with a paragraph structured as above, I have my doubts about your successful graduation...

Originally Posted by flappist

An example of this was that the original GT-P (2003) was going to be more powerful than the GT but marketing decided to make them the same. When I ordered mine 12/2/2003 I was shown original documentation denoting this. I was told a few weeks later it had changed.

Another example was the original F6 had its torque curve lowered so as prevent it from eclipsing the GT. Again this was done by marketing. It was corrected in the interim period between the first release and the re-release after the clutch issue was resolved.

Do you remember these events? Were you involved in any discussions or activities at the time?

Or are all your opinions just extensions of others in an attempt to achieve peer adulation?

My statement that you are "ill informed", was in reference to your assumed link TRD has to Prodrive engineering their engines. As I stated this is incorrect. Therefore it has NOTHING to do with FPV and Prodrive in their development of a possible S/C Boss.

You managed to bring the Boss engine into yet another thread when there was absolutely no relevant connection!!

Lets get this back on topic and talk about the TRD Aurion...

[XRDRIFT]

T3man, its cool, I like jap cars, only the old ones, for intended special purposes, ie drifting and kharnacrosses and they are so cheap and reliable, plus parts from other model Toyotas swap over with no mods neccesasary, just put a 85' celica diff into my rola without drilling a hole or welding a bracket.

I see your point about aussie jobs, this country is become too dependant on 'cheap' labour from overseas. Just like Americans and those damn mexicans.

I will keep buying AUssie regardless of build quality to an extent though, Aussie products built by Australians for Australians. Money hopefully stays here. As long as Holden are behind us, never in front

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by flappist

Thank you DaveO. I quite liked my BOSS powered GT-P which I owned while you were at high school. You have left school now haven't you?

I also had some quite interesting discussions with the actual engineers who designed the BOSS a few years ago and one of the things mentioned was how despite there being any engineering issues, marketing have killed and/or changed products before they got released.

An example of this was that the original GT-P (2003) was going to be more powerful than the GT but marketing decided to make them the same. When I ordered mine 12/2/2003 I was shown original documentation denoting this. I was told a few weeks later it had changed.

Another example was the original F6 had its torque curve lowered so as prevent it from eclipsing the GT. Again this was done by marketing. It was corrected in the interim period between the first release and the re-release after the clutch issue was resolved.

Do you remember these events? Were you involved in any discussions or activities at the time?

Or are all your opinions just extensions of others in an attempt to achieve peer adulation?

Flappist... One VERY interesting issue you have raised here is the power of the marketing dept Vs a well versed engineering dept!.. And I'd suggest this is fairly typical across the boards of Toyota, GMH (HSV), Ford (FPV) or whoever?
I'll go a little off original thread here and DARE to suggest that there is huge problems within FPV as we speak, predominately centered around major continuing engineering & design issues with their Boss 290 engine.
Against the advice and concerns of a well credentialed engineering dept, the marketing guys won the day and persisted with their "Aussie 5.4 dream".
I believe this is going to bite Prodrive/FPV severly on the arrse, And soon!
I'll get flamed til the cows come home over this, I know!... :

[jason_85]

Originally Posted by phoonfan

might i dare mention, Lexcen, Avalon and now Aurion... :togo:

Perhaps they should stick to what they know best, making dull small cars for the masses! :eclipsee_

isnt the lexcen a rebadged commodore?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by DaveO_SP

I have left school, however with a paragraph structured as above, I have my doubts about your successful graduation...



My statement that you are "ill informed", was in reference to your assumed link TRD has to Prodrive engineering their engines. As I stated this is incorrect. Therefore it has NOTHING to do with FPV and Prodrive in their development of a possible S/C Boss.

You managed to bring the Boss engine into yet another thread when there was absolutely no relevant connection!!

Lets get this back on topic and talk about the TRD Aurion...

Ah so
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=e...prodrive&meta=

bringing up squillions of pages mentioning the links between the companies is just a glitch.

And my original comment that I hoped that this event did not impact on the possible marketing/political NOT direct engineering issues on the conversion of an existing engine into another form before this engine is replaced by the future "world standard" engine.

This is why I originally did not mention BOSS. Some people do not read a whole paragraph, they just see a word and jump to a private conclusion before having a little keyboard tanty. I did not point out the BOSS until another member stated that I was being sarcastic.

Toyota have developed many performance vehicles many of which are forced induction. I cannot think of another one that is super rather than turbo charged. Prodrive are building these vehicles and I am sure their marketing people are watching events carefully.

You really cannot see any connection between these things?

It is also interesting that each of these posts are basicly personal attacks with no actual reference, logic or reasoning to support their points.

[5.4 GT]

Originally Posted by flappist

Ah so
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=e...prodrive&meta=

bringing up squillions of pages mentioning the links between the companies is just a glitch.

And my original comment that I hoped that this event did not impact on the possible marketing/political NOT direct engineering issues on the conversion of an existing engine into another form before this engine is replaced by the future "world standard" engine.

This is why I originally did not mention BOSS. Some people do not read a whole paragraph, they just see a word and jump to a private conclusion before having a little keyboard tanty. I did not point out the BOSS until another member stated that I was being sarcastic.

Toyota have developed many performance vehicles many of which are forced induction. I cannot think of another one that is super rather than turbo charged. Prodrive are building these vehicles and I am sure their marketing people are watching events carefully.

You really cannot see any connection between these things?

It is also interesting that each of these posts are basicly personal attacks with no actual reference, logic or reasoning to support their points.

Did you attend a presentation chaired by key members of TRD (for nearly 3 hours I might add) speaking about every aspect of their new car including marketing? Or did you just type into google "Prodrive, TRD, Toyota?"?

No I still cannot see how you logically linked the failure of the TRD Aurion engine to Prodrive or FPV engineering OR marketing.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by DaveO_SP

Did you attend a presentation chaired by key members of TRD (for nearly 3 hours I might add) speaking about every aspect of their new car including marketing? Or did you just type into google "Prodrive, TRD, Toyota?"?

No I still cannot see how you logically linked the failure of the TRD Aurion engine to Prodrive or FPV engineering OR marketing.

FFS, NOT toyota's marketing, FPV's and your third sentence explains it all.

[5.4 GT]

Originally Posted by flappist

FFS, NOT toyota's marketing, FPV's and your second sentence explains it all.

How??? The TRD's supercharged engines failure is nothing to do with FPV!! Are you going under the assumption that people will think like you and wrongly assume Prodrive had a bigger hand in development than it did and this will reflect badly on marketing a S/C FPV (because people also link Prodrive with FPV)?

[flappist]

Originally Posted by DaveO_SP

How??? The TRD's supercharged engines failure is nothing to do with FPV???

I will assume this is a genuine question.

FPV, TRD and for that matter HSV share a common market, Australia.
Large naturally aspirated V8s have proven to be sucessful of many years.
Turbos were a gamble but paid off with the sucess of the XR6T/F6
Supercharged vehicles so far have had mixed results with the lacklustre sales performance of the XU6 3.8l commy.

FPV may or may not be planning a s/c engine powered vehicle. It is logical that this vehicle would be a V8 as there is already a turbo 6.

If the s/c toyota is a major flop due to reliability issues then there will be a stigma on the word "SUPERCHARGED".

For the 90% of FPVs potential customer base who are not hard core Ford freaks, a converstion something like "you are looking at a supercharged one? Bit brave. A lot of supercharged cars blew up recently didnt they?" may take place. People get spooked pretty easily. Look at air travel after 11/9/2001

So if FPVs marketing department decide that a supercharged vehicle might not be as sucessful as required to make a profit due external influences then the product would be deferred/cancelled.

Remember the "world petrol shortage" in the 80's? The one that convinced Ford to drop the V8 completely?

NOW do you get it?

[5.4 GT]

Yes I get what you are saying but surely most people when they think FPV S/C (GTHO?) would think of the Mustang GT500 or the Ford GT or even if its just superchargers in general maybe the Elfin 50th anniversary edition (definate supercar eater for not much money and has had quite a bit of publicity in most magazines and papers so people would have a fair idea of its success) or the Vauxhall VXR 500 (both had aussie companies develop the chargers).

The TRD in peoples minds would fall more into line with the Mitsubishi TMR 380 or as you've stated the 3.8 litre V6 used in the XU6 and Holden Calais. Not a real high performance application. (nobody mentioned any of these cars in the thread about the revival of a GTHO)

Indeed Ford took a gamble with the 6 Turbo and it has paid off big time for them. Most people's perceptions of a turbo before the big barra 6 was woeful lag and rubbish response until it gets revving. The 6T gets its power on alot lower thanks in part to its large capacity for the number of cylinders. This has changed alot of peoples perceptions about Turbos.

I wonder if Ford's marketing thought about this beforehand? Clearly it didn't bother them that much as the car was released anyway.

[Kenster]

Originally Posted by T3man

XRDRIFT - sad but true. Toy Motor Company DO make more reliable and better tested and assembled products than anything that ever comes from Ford Australia or GMH.

But I'd still never buy one. Not just Toyota, any Jap car that is. I'm a patriot at heart and would rather put up with a lesser product that buys jobs for Aussie kids than see my money buying jobs for Japs! Yep, I am racist. At least in this regard.

Works and where your money is going. I have to say that Ford and GMH profit all lead back to America, only thing that keeping the motor industry alive is the workers and company who build they plant here so Australian could work, but otherwise it goes back to CEO of company.

isnt the lexcen a rebadged commodore?

Yes lexcen is a rebadget of a commodore, if you take a look at a mechanic hand book it does list it as a Holden or Toyota.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by DaveO_SP

Yes I get what you are saying but surely most people when they think FPV S/C (GTHO?) would think of the Mustang GT500 or the Ford GT or even if its just superchargers in general maybe the Elfin 50th anniversary edition (definate supercar eater for not much money and has had quite a bit of publicity in most magazines and papers so people would have a fair idea of its success) or the Vauxhall VXR 500 (both had aussie companies develop the chargers).

The TRD in peoples minds would fall more into line with the Mitsubishi TMR 380 or as you've stated the 3.8 litre V6 used in the XU6 and Holden Calais. Not a real high performance application. (nobody mentioned any of these cars in the thread about the revival of a GTHO)

Indeed Ford took a gamble with the 6 Turbo and it has paid off big time for them. Most people's perceptions of a turbo before the big barra 6 was woeful lag and rubbish response until it gets revving. The 6T gets its power on alot lower thanks in part to its large capacity for the number of cylinders. This has changed alot of peoples perceptions about Turbos.

I wonder if Ford's marketing thought about this beforehand? Clearly it didn't bother them that much as the car was released anyway.

Here is the problem. Yes WE, the car enthusiests, will understand that but the majority of FPV buyers I know, and I know quite a few, have never been on AFF, have never modded their car and many are not even aware of the GT heritage. They bought it because they like the look of it of they like fords or falcons and these are the top of the range. I remember the second GT-P sold here was in for repairs constantly because the owner always used "woolies petrol" rather than PULP. He now has a 40th aniv GT. Several of the FPVs traded still had the drive day form unused. One had a satnav with the DVD still in its sealed box. To many of them it is "just a car".

The most dangerous thing about marketing is the presumption that because YOU think something is good and YOU would buy it, everyone else will too.

Many businesses gone splat because of that.

[5.4 GT]

Originally Posted by flappist

Here is the problem. Yes WE, the car enthusiests, will understand that but the majority of FPV buyers I know, and I know quite a few, have never been on AFF, have never modded their car and many are not even aware of the GT heritage. They bought it because they like the look of it of they like fords or falcons and these are the top of the range. I remember the second GT-P sold here was in for repairs constantly because the owner always used "woolies petrol" rather than PULP. He now has a 40th aniv GT. Several of the FPVs traded still had the drive day form unused. One had a satnav with the DVD still in its sealed box. To many of them it is "just a car".

The most dangerous thing about marketing is the presumption that because YOU think something is good and YOU would buy it, everyone else will too.

Many businesses gone splat because of that.

They dont sound like the target market for a supercharged FPV then (someone who is a scrooge on petrol and doesn't use pulp for these cars surely wouldn't be able to afford a new supercharged FPV anyhow). Does he run the 40th on non-PULP fuel too or has he learnt his lesson? If so that's one 40th that should not be touched (probably bought it for an "investment").

Same can be said for a TRD Aurion buyer. Totally different market segment... so the buyer of a supercharged FPV really wouldn't care if the Aurion was a flop.

Surely every man and his dog is aware of the GT heritage by now, the media is having a frenzy with it lately. Market a supercharged FPV (maybe even under the hallowed GTHO nameplate?) and they'd be sure to sell like hotcakes.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by DaveO_SP

They dont sound like the target market for a supercharged FPV then (someone who is a scrooge on petrol and doesn't use pulp for these cars surely wouldn't be able to afford a new supercharged FPV anyhow). Does he run the 40th on non-PULP fuel too or has he learnt his lesson? If so that's one 40th that should not be touched (probably bought it for an "investment").

Same can be said for a TRD Aurion buyer. Totally different market segment... so the buyer of a supercharged FPV really wouldn't care if the Aurion was a flop.

Surely every man and his dog is aware of the GT heritage by now, the media is having a frenzy with it lately. Market a supercharged FPV (maybe even under the hallowed GTHO nameplate?) and they'd be sure to sell like hotcakes.

Yes I too believe that one would sell well and I actually ordered one in 2005 when it was rumoured to be released.

You still miss the point. Of the several thousand FPV vehicles sold many are not bought by "muscle car enthusiests".

Marketing can get it wrong, Force anyone?

What is the FPV market? At my first drive day I was the second youngest there at 44. 75% were manuals. At my second drive day half were F6s and most were non bright colors.

The 40aniv sold out but it was cheap to develop (body kit) and so could be priced well. If a new model had a major and unique engine change then all of the development cost would have to be amortised over a small quantity.

But this is now WAY off topic. My original comment was I hoped that there would be no ripple effect on FPV should this toyota TRD vehicle fail. THAT WAS ALL.

[[Tonko]]

Did Toyota do the Macca's tray test? I think that might have been it :p





Plus , 44- gallon drum lids work better

[gtfpv]

flappist , because of my referral to you as posting sarcastically, it wasnt personally aimed in a derogitory sense. i simply was reading between the lines and came to a conclusion that prodrive was in there somewhere, which of course sparked interest in a supercharged engine that failed , and of course links in the mind to marketing possible problems . it's not hard for consumers to link things together .
now as far as millions of pages suggesting that engineers didn't want a boss V8, ( which was overturned by marketing ) which another member seems to have raised here . sparks more interest. looks like the BOSSES OWN FAN BASE is 50% divided, on its credibility, i wonder how much of this; ratio wise; is taken from actuall experiance verses/ rumours and marketing to bias sponsored medai propaganda. and visa versa. combined with variable opinions. your right in saying , many people have GT GLASSES ON . hope i'm not perceived that way. any how your not on my ignore list, otherwise boredom would set in for me .

[DK30RB]

Originally Posted by irsa76

Compared to other Toyotas they are sales flops. Apart from the Lexen the cars are fine, it's just the Australian large car market prefers large RWD sedans. Apparently the Aurion could have been RWD if Toyota Australia had the budget.

Sales Flops! How So?

Aurion sales figures almost equal (sometimes better) the camry. Corolla and Yaris are the only ones that beat them.

Aurion/Camry sells better than, Prado, Rav4, Kluger, etc etc.

In fact combined Camry/Aurion (both being mid/large front drive cars) the sales figure beat Falcon.

I don't think you can say anymore that large car buyers prefer or favour the "traditional RWD sedan".

[VSSII]

Actually Toyota have built quite a few blown engines over the years however they normally do all design and construction work themselves. With the exception being assistance in head design from Yamaha which has been going on since the 70's. 1.6 4AGZE and 2.0 6cyl 1GGZE both come to mind immediately as they're common over here.

This Camlee engine differs due to the fact that the blower is not a Toyota OE part. Actually it's much more advanced than any blower built by them. If Toyota saw the performance niche as a serious target market they have several cars they could introduce that would punish the locals. But they don't so they won't. Toyota are very performance oriented. How else do you explain 6 bolt mains on lexus V8 engines. The 2.5l 1JZGTE will take nothing more than a $2000 turbo and some 800cc injectors to release close to 500BHP reliably. The 2J even less. Or this thing running on alcohol!
http://www.redbelliesracing.com.au/circuit_racer.htm.

Unfortunately Toyota Australia do not seem to see a market.

[Sapper]

Well, I had a chat to my mate who works at Sydney City Toyota and said he had heard that the problem was the supercharger falling off. I assume that means it somehow disconnected itself from the intake manifold. Read into it what you want...

Can anyone else confirm this?

[hy_boi]

Originally Posted by VenomST

Well, I had a chat to my mate who works at Sydney City Toyota and said he had heard that the problem was the supercharger falling off. I assume that means it somehow disconnected itself from the intake manifold. Read into it what you want...

Can anyone else confirm this?

Thats incorrect, we're just been given service advisory on the car, electronic rev limter has failed...thats all i can say

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by hy_boi

Thats incorrect, we're just been given service advisory on the car, electronic rev limter has failed...thats all i can say

Can you confirm this caused it to throw a leg out?

[mcnews]

When I flogged one around the track last week the limiter on that one certainly worked as the thing banged it often enough.

[hy_boi]

I can not confirm that legally........................................... ..............

[chich]

Originally Posted by XRDRIFT

OK, anyone who is bagging out Toyotas needs thier head re examined. Toyota for one, is almost the biggest car manufacturer in the world, over yes FORD and GMH. And they wont be by accident, they have a great product.

Go back a decade, the RZ twin turbo Supra, its 2JZ can produce with standard internals over 1000hp, and almost be reliable. The almighty 1.6ltr 4AGE in our 1986-1994 powered SX corollas, unbreakable and not to mention the 4AGZE supercharged versions which came standard with forged pistons.

Toyota along with Honda are one if not, biggest producers of the most reliable cars in the world. Ford have alot of issues and GMH, I have an BA XR6T, lets not even start with their probs, a gearbox that was a mistake by Ford to put in (T5's, shame shame), drive shafts that are weak, some of them have rough idle issues (like mine did), and a handbrake that makes a swishing sound as sound as you first use your handbrake. Front brakes that shudder on some (i have new rotors and pads and it still does it), But all in all, the XR6T has potential, when money is spent on strengthing those parts with aftermarket gear.

This is a first for Toyota Australia to make a car liek this, you honestly cant expect it to be perfect from word go, if Ford built cars like Toyota in the sense of reliablity, maybe we wouldnt be visiting our service departments to have stupid little issues fixed.

And yes, I do have a Toyota, a 1981 corolla with a 4AGE in it, modded up with standard parts from other model Toyotas(Celica diff,corona struts etc) and it will be my drift pig.

Im not bagging Fords out completely, but compared to what the Toyota product can offer in reliable as a whole across the range, both Ford and Holden have alot to live up too.

Amen to that. Word of advise though, don't bother trying to enlighten this crowd. Some are smart enough to look at the facts and face reality, sadly most are deluded to the point where they believe nothing can possibly be better than Grandads Falcon.

[hy_boi]

Whats wrong with grand dads falcon? its the best AU series 1 forte i've seen with 400k's on the clock..hahaha

[Maxim]

Aurion engines without supercharging have let go. Its not the first time.

The Aurion engine is also in the V6 Tarago, hilux and new the New v6 Rav.

I have driven a few. Beautifully balanced package for a street car.

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by hy_boi

I can not confirm that legally........................................... ..............

Aw... come on mate... We promise not to tell?
It's just amongst us guys here on this tiny little forum

[hy_boi]

Originally Posted by Maxim

Aurion engines without supercharging have let go. Its not the first time.

The Aurion engine is also in the V6 Tarago, hilux and new the New v6 Rav.

I have driven a few. Beautifully balanced package for a street car.

The v6 isn't in the hilux, they have the 4l, it is in the Tarago, Rav4 V6(due early next month) and the kluger.

I'm yet to see an aurion with a problem through our workshop.

[Envi XR8]

Originally Posted by phoonfan

might i dare mention, Lexcen, Avalon and now Aurion... :togo:

you can mention those but......

Lexcen was a rebadged Commodore. As I understand it, Toyota got to use the commodore as a base for a large family RWD sedan which they did not have a model in their own range, in return for development work on the Buick V6 that was fitted to the VP and later models of the Commodore, ie; the Ecotech engines.

Avalon was released if I remember correctly because there was some talk of Toyota joining V8 Supercars, where they would need a large car as a base, as the Lexcen had been ditched. From what I can gather the Avalon was not sold in Japan. What killed it was the usual issue. People are wary of buying a front wheel drive car that has the capacity to tow. RWD cars are preferred by Joe Public generally.

Aurion has big potential. It's V6 pumps out more power than the Falcon or Commodore equilivants. It has Japanese build and finish quality, and they would be fairly economical and reliable. Seeing that the car has not been on the market for that long, it is difficult to say it has been a flop. There are plenty of them on the roads, even the 4 cylinder Camry isn't a bad car. If it doesn't eventually sell well, it may be a flop by Toyota's standards, but to Holden and Ford it would have been a success!

Originally Posted by phoonfan

Perhaps they should stick to what they know best, making dull small cars for the masses! :eclipsee_

As for making small dull cars for the masses. Those small dull cars are going to put our fuel drinking large cars off the road eventually. I'm not sure either that a Sportive Corolla Levin is that dull actually?? Even the older models get up and go.

Dare I mention the Supra, Celica, AE86 Sprinter also? I would not have labelled these cars as dull. "Quite lively" comes to mind.

cheers
Envi