More than one in three Holden Commodores sold is fitted with a V8 engine.

[Struggo]

I'd happily park any Australian made product in my driveway.

VF SV6, SS, SS-V / FG XR6, G6ET, SCV8

[ltd]

In reality I think Holden has certainly branded themselves as the company to go to for V8's. Whether the Holden V8 is better than the Fords or vice-a-verse, they have certainly marketed themselves on this better than Ford.
We really don't need to get into a ****ing match at this late juncture in Australian Manufacturing over who is right or wrong.
Facts are, Holden is losing money, as is ford. Both borrowed money from govco and govco in return has stupidly signed agreements with every nation allowing for the rape of our own manufacturing industries with cheap imports. We will reap the reward for this in time and those polarized fans will soon be wishing for an Aussie made car soon enough, regardless of brand.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

From what you wrote in response to me, it's clear you've never opened an accounting textbook in your life. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about, I feel dumber just replying to you. Can you just stop it?

You do realize that both ford and Holden will be using the same methods to doctor or make figures look better or worse at different times thru the years.....including now.....where a large sum of those latest losses are due to winding up operations and devaluation of property.
I'm not the uneducated fool you think I am.....but you seem happy too tell me i am and that I'm biased(as if bias has anything to do with hard factual figures)

Instead of berating me....how about you contribute to the discussion and educate me and everyone else with your MBA and finance degree knowledge!

Or are you one of these people who thinks his opinion trumps facts and everyone else is wrong simply because you have a VF commadore!

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Ford do have an XR8 ute, it's called the FPV GS. I have internal documentation from months prior to the Miami release where it was still referred to as an XR8. And wow man you really know how to spin it in Ford's favour. But that's fine, you're a huge fan and you speak from your heart, even if it's a bit biased. Just understand that those of us with accounting/finance degrees & MBAs who've been watching the situation develop for the last 10 years appreciate the full picture, not just the one where Ford are masters of the universe.

I only have a lowly double chemistry major with honours and an MBA but would rather you play the ball and not the man and explain your thoughts to add to this debate.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

You do realize that both ford and Holden will be using the same methods to doctor or make figures look better or worse at different times thru the years.....including now.....where a large sum of those latest losses are due to winding up operations and devaluation of property.
I'm not the uneducated fool you think I am.....but you seem happy too tell me i am and that I'm biased(as if bias has anything to do with hard factual figures)

Instead of berating me....how about you contribute to the discussion and educate me and everyone else with your MBA and finance degree knowledge!

Or are you one of these people who thinks his opinion trumps facts and everyone else is wrong simply because you have a VF commadore!

How ironic. You've sprouted utter nonsense throughout this thread, you've continued to try to bait me into an argument and when I refused, you called me a comedian who only talks big but cant take it (whatever that means). You've called me a die-hard Holden fan. Why? Because I pointed out that Holden selling high margin V8s is a good thing? Or that their latest V6 is not a bad piece of equipment and certainly not the reason for the high V8 sales (which I pointed out have been historically high despite fuel prices)? I really don't understand you. Like others here, I'm a car enthusiast. That includes all makes. I'm not some Ford groupie that needs to spin everything in Ford's favour, no matter how ridiculous it sounds. I said I didn't want to argue with you because you don't know what you're talking about- and you don't. But since you've asked for a discussion about it, I'll run down why I find your remarks so ridiculous.

Starting with your opening comment:

just because 1/3 of all commadores sold are v8s doesn't mean that theres enough total sales to warrant engineering and building said v8 large cars for next or previous gens. the descission ford made.....prevented them from being in twice the DEBT holden is in.......oH BUT WAIT THEY SELL 200 v8s a month

So you've said that Ford's decision in dropping the V8 has made them better off, financially, than Holden. Except Ford didn't drop the V8. They, in partnership with Prodrive, put $40 million into making a bespoke version of the Ford Coyote V8, the "Miami" which launched in 2010. It powers the GT and the XR8 replacement- the GS. It will carry over to the FH XR8 due later in the year.

You've also claimed that Holden sell 200 V8s per month. Most calculators would disagree with you. 1/3 of 2648 is approaching 900 units- which is more than total Falcon sales last month. I corrected you on this, to which you replied:

Yeah and that helped them go hundreds of millions in debt, so like I said......just because something looks good......doesn't mean the big picture is good at all. In holdens case it's actually far worse.

So you're saying that building V8 Commodores has put Holden into hundreds of millions in debt. How ridiculous. You also said that Ford has been more financially responsible than Holden by cutting their development in anticipation of the future death of the Falcon. You contrast them to Holden, who according to you, spends out of control on the tax-payer's dollar. Again, what a ridiculous thing to say. Holden have done next to nothing to their engine lineup for a very long time. The "hundreds of millions in debt" V8 you refer to has been largely unchanged since 2006 and is actually cheaper to crate in than the V6 that they build here. While Ford on the other hand have introduced FOUR new engines in recent years. While Holden have sat back and done next to nothing.

You say:

just another SMART descision by ford.....as there weren't enough buying it to warrant further development

So how on earth do you explain Ford's recent moves:

- Development of an EcoLPI version of the I6
- Development of an EcoBoost 4 cylinder Falcon
- Development of a bespoke supercharged version of Ford's Coyote V8
- Development of a turbo diesel version of the Territory

The majority of which were part-funded by tax payers. Oh dear. But I thought Ford was making all of the "smart" decisions in cutting back development, while Holden supposedly loses hundreds of millions on their imported V8? Now are you understanding how ridiculous your comments are?

You've also said Ford were smarter than Holden in cutting models out of the range. You don't understand that Holden's VE range was locked in around 2004/2005 before the VE launch in 2006. This was well prior to large car sales being as bad as they are. It was prior to the huge fuel spikes we've seen. It was prior to the economic uncertainty we've experienced. It was well prior to FG's development being locked in. You don't understand that, at the time, the Commodore's all new chassis (Zeta) was slated by GM to be their new global RWD architecture. It was meant to underpin models across a number of brands. The global financial crisis changed this- and the GRWD program was put on hold. It only ever made it to Camaro. Holden's major export partner (Pontiac) was a victim of GM's restructuring. None of it is Holden's fault. They still manage to export Commodores to North America, middle east and Europe, something we all wished Ford would do with Falcons.

You also don't understand that Holden have not done any development to the wagon, ute or LWB since 2006. They simply receive the sedan's front-end and interior refreshes- and that's it. In fact the LWB looks identical to the 2006 model. Yet you claim that the decision to have those models has cost Holden big time. As mentioned, those models were greenlit back in 04/05 and let's not forget, Commodore is outselling Falcon 3 to 1. Ford just made hundreds more workers redundant, while Holden's decent VF sales are keeping Aussies in jobs for as long as it lasts.

You then compared Ford and Holden according to how much government assistance they have received and how much each has recently been in the red, concluding that Ford must be the better "smarter" company because they "only" recorded a loss of $267 million last year. You have already blamed Holden's losses on their wide range of Commodores, their V8s and their bad financial sense. Now you're saying that BOTH Ford and Holden have doctored the figures and are currently recording losses related to winding down operations. You're all over the place.

problem is with being a 'responsible' company like ford has with winding down.....we now don't have a killer product like the VF.

Perhaps if Ford spent all of that money it wasted on failed engine programs into a new model instead (exactly like Holden did) then we would have a VF killer.

Feeling better, Dr Smith?

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Ford do have an XR8 ute, it's called the FPV GS.

Sigh......

No. An 'FPV' for starters is not a 'Ford' - have you not had a look at the badges on them? Spin it however you like, quote whatever secret squirrel napkin letters you have, end of the day Ford/FPV/whoever have marketed them as 2 different products and most people think they are 2 different products. Ford havent had an XR8 since 2010 which means if you want a V8, you have to buy an FPV. Now this might be fine but what about the people that don't want an FPV? This is why a lot of people go straight to an SS - because it's NOT a HSV but its still a V8. And it is as simple as that, you can go around it however you like but at the end of the day Ford doesn't have a direct competitor for the SS in ute or sedan form.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by b2tf

Sigh......

No. An 'FPV' for starters is not a 'Ford' - have you not had a look at the badges on them? Spin it however you like, quote whatever secret squirrel napkin letters you have, end of the day Ford/FPV/whoever have marketed them as 2 different products and most people think they are 2 different products. Ford havent had an XR8 since 2010 which means if you want a V8, you have to buy an FPV. Now this might be fine but what about the people that don't want an FPV? This is why a lot of people go straight to an SS - because it's NOT a HSV but its still a V8. And it is as simple as that, you can go around it however you like but at the end of the day Ford doesn't have a direct competitor for the SS in ute or sedan form.

100% agree. The issue here is that someone is claiming that Ford didn't develop a new V8. They did, they just branded it as an FPV. It was almost launched as an XR8, I don't know why they changed their minds and I wasn't a fan of it, but they did.

[Iggle Piggle]

Offering '1TUFFUTE' for sale on behalf of Adrenaline...unwanted prize, all offers considered.

For proof of ownership please see post #65

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by ford man xf

When Ford Australia dropped the V8 option in the Falcon it didn't effect sales one would think considering the sucess of the XF. When they brought it back with the EB sales were still strong.
Having optional engines does not affect sales, Ford Australia have always offered engine options to cater for all needs, even now you have available a 4 cylinder, 6 cylinder petrol NA, 6 cylinder petrol turbo charged, 6 cylinder LPG NA and a 5.0 supercharged available in 2 output versions which sit in a world class car and sales have slumped massively, most likely because we are now so spoilt for choice with so many imports available.

Well said. People say Ford biggest mistake was dropping the V8 in 1982 but it didn't really affect them. the one that really made the mistake was Holden by offering no large sedan to compete against the Falcon at the time. A decision that nearly closed Holden in the 80's. If the VL was a flop. I dare say Holden would not be here today

[BHDOGS]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

I had to select "view post" because you were already on my ignore list. Seems nothing has changed.

Nope nothing's changed ur still a smug know it all

[duaned]

Originally Posted by BHDOGS

nobodys wants there ****** v6 thats why nobody has and nobody ever will I

Guess the same applies to the Falcon as well (judging by total sales)! But it will be sad the day these aussie gems go forever!

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by b2tf

Sigh......

No. An 'FPV' for starters is not a 'Ford' - have you not had a look at the badges on them? Spin it however you like, quote whatever secret squirrel napkin letters you have, end of the day Ford/FPV/whoever have marketed them as 2 different products and most people think they are 2 different products. Ford havent had an XR8 since 2010 which means if you want a V8, you have to buy an FPV. Now this might be fine but what about the people that don't want an FPV? This is why a lot of people go straight to an SS - because it's NOT a HSV but its still a V8. And it is as simple as that, you can go around it however you like but at the end of the day Ford doesn't have a direct competitor for the SS in ute or sedan form.

does the first prefix in the VIN code say 6FP by any chance on the FPVs??? If so its a Ford and made by Ford on the engine and a few other things are different

[Iggle Piggle]

Originally Posted by wildrider

Well said. People say Ford biggest mistake was dropping the V8 in 1982 but it didn't really affect them. the one that really made the mistake was Holden by offering no large sedan to compete against the Falcon at the time. A decision that nearly closed Holden in the 80's. If the VL was a flop. I dare say Holden would not be here today

Another way of looking at it could be that dropping the V8 did not hurt Ford in the 80's, but not dropping the V8 in the 80's helped Holden in the late 90s through to the current day where more than 1 in 3 Commodores sold are profitable V8s (even though the Ford V8 offering is superior than all but arguably the LSA).

Some on here talk about Holden having higher sales of local units due to sheeple - maybe the sheeple of today were lambs in the 80s that looked up to the only local shepherd carrying a big thunder stick.

All I know is that if I was to buy one of the local large sedans, either way I would buy a V8. I would be one of the one in three that buy a V8 Commodore or one of the one in ?? that buy a V8 Falcon (don't know the percentage as I don't think that has been publicly available for a while).

[flooded one]

Originally Posted by Iggle Piggle

Another way of looking at it could be that dropping the V8 did not hurt Ford in the 80's, but not dropping the V8 in the 80's helped Holden in the late 90s through to the current day where more than 1 in 3 Commodores sold are profitable V8s (even though the Ford V8 offering is superior than all but arguably the LSA).

Some on here talk about Holden having higher sales of local units due to sheeple - maybe the sheeple of today were lambs in the 80s that looked up to the only local shepherd carrying a big thunder stick.

not really considering that most people now go to Mazda and Toyota for their cars now. considering most sale of Commodores are actually V6's and have always been the 6 cylinder variant's that sell the most. I don't think V8 option really worries them. hence why the majority of Falcon and Commodores are usually 6 cylinders, both made the mistake of not providing what most people want had nothing to do with cylinders

[Iggle Piggle]

Doesn't explain why Holden V8 sales alone are more than all Falcon sales, be it EcoBoost, EcoLPIi, I6, I6T, or 5.0SC. I reckon the better part of a generation of Ford fans were lost in the 80s - they weren't buying new cars in the 80s, but are buying new cars in the late 90s through to today.

Doesn't matter much any more, because the generation after that 'lost' generation is the one you refer to - those that now buy Mazdas, Toyos and Hyundais, and won't look at our large 'gas guzzling' RWDs on their way to purchasing thirsty soft roaders.

It is not just because VF is new - VE never sold as few as the newer FG.

Its not all bad for Ford though - at least Hulk hung tough. Got to be a good thing doesn't it - people hear him speak at a BBQ and aspire to be like him?

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

How ironic. You've sprouted utter nonsense throughout this thread, you've continued to try to bait me into an argument and when I refused, you called me a comedian who only talks big but cant take it (whatever that means). You've called me a die-hard Holden fan. Why? Because I pointed out that Holden selling high margin V8s is a good thing? Or that their latest V6 is not a bad piece of equipment and certainly not the reason for the high V8 sales (which I pointed out have been historically high despite fuel prices)? I really don't understand you. Like others here, I'm a car enthusiast. That includes all makes. I'm not some Ford groupie that needs to spin everything in Ford's favour, no matter how ridiculous it sounds. I said I didn't want to argue with you because you don't know what you're talking about- and you don't. But since you've asked for a discussion about it, I'll run down why I find your remarks so ridiculous.

Starting with your opening comment:



So you've said that Ford's decision in dropping the V8 has made them better off, financially, than Holden. Except Ford didn't drop the V8. They, in partnership with Prodrive, put $40 million into making a bespoke version of the Ford Coyote V8, the "Miami" which launched in 2010. It powers the GT and the XR8 replacement- the GS. It will carry over to the FH XR8 due later in the year.

You've also claimed that Holden sell 200 V8s per month. Most calculators would disagree with you. 1/3 of 2648 is approaching 900 units- which is more than total Falcon sales last month. I corrected you on this, to which you replied:



So you're saying that building V8 Commodores has put Holden into hundreds of millions in debt. How ridiculous. You also said that Ford has been more financially responsible than Holden by cutting their development in anticipation of the future death of the Falcon. You contrast them to Holden, who according to you, spends out of control on the tax-payer's dollar. Again, what a ridiculous thing to say. Holden have done next to nothing to their engine lineup for a very long time. The "hundreds of millions in debt" V8 you refer to has been largely unchanged since 2006 and is actually cheaper to crate in than the V6 that they build here. While Ford on the other hand have introduced FOUR new engines in recent years. While Holden have sat back and done next to nothing.

You say:



So how on earth do you explain Ford's recent moves:

- Development of an EcoLPI version of the I6
- Development of an EcoBoost 4 cylinder Falcon
- Development of a bespoke supercharged version of Ford's Coyote V8
- Development of a turbo diesel version of the Territory

The majority of which were part-funded by tax payers. Oh dear. But I thought Ford was making all of the "smart" decisions in cutting back development, while Holden supposedly loses hundreds of millions on their imported V8? Now are you understanding how ridiculous your comments are?

You've also said Ford were smarter than Holden in cutting models out of the range. You don't understand that Holden's VE range was locked in around 2004/2005 before the VE launch in 2006. This was well prior to large car sales being as bad as they are. It was prior to the huge fuel spikes we've seen. It was prior to the economic uncertainty we've experienced. It was well prior to FG's development being locked in. You don't understand that, at the time, the Commodore's all new chassis (Zeta) was slated by GM to be their new global RWD architecture. It was meant to underpin models across a number of brands. The global financial crisis changed this- and the GRWD program was put on hold. It only ever made it to Camaro. Holden's major export partner (Pontiac) was a victim of GM's restructuring. None of it is Holden's fault. They still manage to export Commodores to North America, middle east and Europe, something we all wished Ford would do with Falcons.

You also don't understand that Holden have not done any development to the wagon, ute or LWB since 2006. They simply receive the sedan's front-end and interior refreshes- and that's it. In fact the LWB looks identical to the 2006 model. Yet you claim that the decision to have those models has cost Holden big time. As mentioned, those models were greenlit back in 04/05 and let's not forget, Commodore is outselling Falcon 3 to 1. Ford just made hundreds more workers redundant, while Holden's decent VF sales are keeping Aussies in jobs for as long as it lasts.

You then compared Ford and Holden according to how much government assistance they have received and how much each has recently been in the red, concluding that Ford must be the better "smarter" company because they "only" recorded a loss of $267 million last year. You have already blamed Holden's losses on their wide range of Commodores, their V8s and their bad financial sense. Now you're saying that BOTH Ford and Holden have doctored the figures and are currently recording losses related to winding down operations. You're all over the place.



Perhaps if Ford spent all of that money it wasted on failed engine programs into a new model instead (exactly like Holden did) then we would have a VF killer.

Feeling better, Dr Smith?

It's funny that when you finally decide to make a decent post....you twist all my words.....and yet you still havnt shown your great financial skills by showing how holdens debt of double fords is not as bad as you think it is.

Ok so here we go......
I never said anything about ford dropping the v8 was the sole reason they were better off that's just naive. For starters by ford and fpv co developing the v8 product, and only using it by one of them.....they saved a fortune by not having an xr8 AND a cheaper v8 fpv model in the lineup. Both had to be differentiated, meaning more dollars in development. So cut one.SMART but ****** people off who wanted a FORD product, not an FPV.had to be done in a shrinking market.

My comment on 200v8s a month was tounge in cheek we all know they sell bucket loads!!!!

And this surprised me the most for an educated guy. You do realize the Eco lpi falcon and the diesel territory only came about due to the ECO co funding from govco to specifically develope ECO cars. VERY well done by ford to develope worldclass "Eco" cars here in Australia. The ecolpi is still an amazing bit of kit Remind me what Holden did with their govco money....that's right they committed to a gazillion dollar NRL sponsorship spanning past years that they wouldn't even be around. Hmmmm clever. Or I spose you can count the lame rehash of the LPG commadore they did as a good move (and that's just a small hint at their spending themes)

And don't make excuses for the zeta platform failing to excite GM into using it globally......if it was good enough they'd use it.......if it wasn't good enough to be a next generation car then they shouldn't be doing it. Just because they have the name Holden, doesn't mean they aren't GM! If the ranger development had failed....then ford aus would have suffered aswell.....not just put all the blame on ford usa

And all of holdens exports have been a fail. Can't believe you went there

Oh and you mention the ford employees that just got let go......well guess what.....they all knew it was coming.....they were not lied to by Holden who screwed down their wages promising bonuses and pay rises only to fire people INSTANTLY on the spot without warning.
And for your info....ford will have the biggest auto industry work force in the country after the big sedans are finished. How do you feel about that?

And for THE LOVE OF GOD I'm not saying ford and Holden are doctoring figures illegally....I'm letting you know that I'm well aware that last years financial years figures for both companies can and does not simply include direct money losses. I clearly stated this but I thought a financial guru with an MBA would simple GET IT.

NOW what I'm still waiting for, is your insight into my original post with my posted figures and why holdens far bigger debt then fords, despite selling twice the cars, is so easy for such an educated guy like yourself to process......and dismiss!!!Please inform us all!

[ltd]

This is going around and around, I'm getting dizzy.

So we have conjecture and speculation, does anyone have any actual knowledge of whether Ford or Holden make profits on any of their cars because after all, they've both made several hundred million dollar losses in the last financial year so that would logically suggest that they don't make profits on their cars right?
Not baiting anyone just would like to know if there is any information about the two models and their respective profitability.
Anyone got any veritable facts?

[johnydep]

Let's start again -

Originally Posted by csv8

"More than one in three Holden Commodores sold is fitted with a V8 engine.

Since the heavily revised new VF Commodore went on sale in mid-2013 37 per cent of the Commodores sold have been fitted with a high performance V8 - either the 6.0-litre version in regular Commodores or the 6.2-litres fitted to HSV variants.

It’s believed to be the highest share of V8s in the Commodore’s 26-year history and is indicative of the popularity of the brand to motoring enthusiasts and those wanting an affordable, large, practical car that’s fun to drive.

“We’re selling a rich mix of cars – high end cars and V8s,” said Holden’s executive director of sales and marketing, Philip Brook.
Advertisement

About half of the Holden Commodore Utes sold is fitted with a V8, while the sedans and wagons are increasingly being chosen by private buyers with the higher output engine.

“It’s a strong mix of V8s,” said Brook, who puts it down to the driving experience and a healthy Australian appetite for performance cars.

“If you take a V6 [Commodore] it’s very good, if you take a V8 it’s outstanding,” said Brook.

The big winner from the push towards V8s has been the sporty SS, SS-V and SS-V Redline models, which now account for 23 per cent of Commodore sales – almost one in four of the 35,000-odd sold annually.

Brook concedes much of the growth in share of V8 sales within the Commodore range is due to the drop-off in fleet and government sales, which gravitate towards more affordable and efficient V6 versions.

“One of the big reductions over the years has been government sales and a bit of large fleet ... and they traditionally all bought V6s.”

The sales are the latest example of buyers putting performance or practicality ahead of fuel consumption.

V6 versions of the Commodore use between 8.3 and 9.6 litres of fuel per 100km, whereas the V8 versions use between 11.5 and 11.7L/100km up to 41 per cent more.

Sales of large SUVs have also boomed over the past decade, with buyers demanding additional space at the expense of fuel consumption.

When Holden ceases production of the Commodore in Australia by the end of 2017 it is likely to continue selling high performance, rear-wheel-drive models.

It’s understood General Motors is working on a V8-powered performance sedan to replace the Chevrolet SS, a car currently produced by Holden and exported to the United States.

Volume selling Holden large cars – which may or may not be called Commodores – would likely be a separate body and use a four-cylinder or hybrid powertrain driving the front wheels."
http://www.drive.com.au/motor-news/v...619-zse7e.html

[PepeLePew]

Internet
Fact
Antonym

How about a post or two specifically related to the thread topic. It's interesting and to return to this thread time and time again to read infighting about who has the best credentials to analyze the manufacturers relative financial positions is a trifle frustrating.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by PepeLePew

It's interesting and to return to this thread time and time again to read infighting about who has the best credentials to analyze the manufacturers relative financial positions is a trifle frustrating.

If Ego was used to power the car some members would have a faster car than Frosty!

[BHDOGS]

If pieces of **** could power an engine Holden could fly to the moon

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Feeling better, Dr Smith?

While I cannot agree with some of what you said, and will not make public comments of what I know to be true or otherwise on Ford Management decisions without getting myself into trouble based on private conversations all I will say is (with due respect as I do enjoy your posts) we should all stick to making comments and leave the personal stuff alone. It's beneath all of us frankly. And trust me with Hawthorn beating Collingwood NOTHING could make me feel better, lol.

[Dave R]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

It's funny that when you finally decide to make a decent post....you twist all my words.....and yet you still havnt shown your great financial skills by showing how holdens debt of double fords is not as bad as you think it is.

Ok so here we go......
I never said anything about ford dropping the v8 was the sole reason they were better off that's just naive. For starters by ford and fpv co developing the v8 product, and only using it by one of them.....they saved a fortune by not having an xr8 AND a cheaper v8 fpv model in the lineup. Both had to be differentiated, meaning more dollars in development. So cut one.SMART but ****** people off who wanted a FORD product, not an FPV.had to be done in a shrinking market.

My comment on 200v8s a month was tounge in cheek we all know they sell bucket loads!!!!

And this surprised me the most for an educated guy. You do realize the Eco lpi falcon and the diesel territory only came about due to the ECO co funding from govco to specifically develope ECO cars. VERY well done by ford to develope worldclass "Eco" cars here in Australia. The ecolpi is still an amazing bit of kit Remind me what Holden did with their govco money....that's right they committed to a gazillion dollar NRL sponsorship spanning past years that they wouldn't even be around. Hmmmm clever. Or I spose you can count the lame rehash of the LPG commadore they did as a good move (and that's just a small hint at their spending themes)

And don't make excuses for the zeta platform failing to excite GM into using it globally......if it was good enough they'd use it.......if it wasn't good enough to be a next generation car then they shouldn't be doing it. Just because they have the name Holden, doesn't mean they aren't GM! If the ranger development had failed....then ford aus would have suffered aswell.....not just put all the blame on ford usa

And all of holdens exports have been a fail. Can't believe you went there

Oh and you mention the ford employees that just got let go......well guess what.....they all knew it was coming.....they were not lied to by Holden who screwed down their wages promising bonuses and pay rises only to fire people INSTANTLY on the spot without warning.
And for your info....ford will have the biggest auto industry work force in the country after the big sedans are finished. How do you feel about that?

And for THE LOVE OF GOD I'm not saying ford and Holden are doctoring figures illegally....I'm letting you know that I'm well aware that last years financial years figures for both companies can and does not simply include direct money losses. I clearly stated this but I thought a financial guru with an MBA would simple GET IT.

NOW what I'm still waiting for, is your insight into my original post with my posted figures and why holdens far bigger debt then fords, despite selling twice the cars, is so easy for such an educated guy like yourself to process......and dismiss!!!Please inform us all!

Let's be honest, I don't think you're taking yourself seriously at this point. You got destroyed on every single nonsense point you made, now you're just replying for the sake of replying. You've gone from backpedaling on your own points like Holden's V8s put them hundreds of millions into debt (what?) and Ford didn't develop a V8 post-XR8 because they were smart (oh wait, they did) to flat out lies like Zeta failed to excite GM into using it globally (heard of Camaro?). You probably didn't even know what Zeta was until you read it in my post. I also like how when Ford uses government money on failed programs, it's okay. But when Holden uses it, they are the devil. Gee, you can even spin a positive out of Ford letting go workers. You are a real piece of work.

You even conceded on your original point that Holden doesn't sell enough V8s to make it worth developing them. Now you agree they sell bucketloads. That's the entire reason you entered this thread- you told someone who believed Ford should make V8s that they were under-educated (how ironic) and that 1/3 of nothing is still nothing, thus Ford's decision to not continue developing V8s was smart. Except now you also agree that Ford did keep developing V8s. But you'll still claim that Ford were smart, because they made them FPV-only. Right. You said that Holden selling their V8s put them hundreds of millions into "debt". Now you concede that they don't. Maybe we all misunderstand you. Because you don't make sense.

This is exactly why I said that I didn't want to argue with you, you're just too much of a groupie to have a reasonable exchange with. You bait people into an argument, then you switch your positions, make up facts- you're a mess. You have now been added to my ignore list, enjoy your stay

[BHDOGS]

Lmao adrenalin the new standard in can't take it but can give it

[johnydep]

I've been noticing quite a lot of VF's lately, mostly SV6's, SS's & SS-V's.

Most buyers of those vehicles are probably like me, they want to own a piece of iconic Australian motoring history. And what better way of doing it than getting an SS, which started life off in the 1970's.

Who knows, in 40 years time a VF SS may become as collectable as a HQ SS is today. It's a gamble, but I'd love to include a VF SS-V redline manual in a stand out colour and striping in my shed. Never to sell, but to hand to a grand child :-)

Just dreaming, though it looks like many are spending their cash.

Good on Holden, if you're going to go out ... go out with a bang!

[blackf6]

Don't know why, who want's a 270kw slug? ;)

[Ducati888]

Originally Posted by Struggo

I'd happily park any Australian made product in my driveway.

VF SV6, SS, SS-V / FG XR6, G6ET, SCV8

In saying "any", you missed Camry, Territory and Cruze from your list

[Silver Ghia]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Let's start again -

And I'll answer the same as was done before.

That VF buyers flock to the V8 because the Holden V6's are known not to be all that good.

Ford buyers don't need to buy V8's because they are spoilt by the I6 in NA form, and the I6T if they want to go even faster.

Unless of course the buyer is an enthusiast and wants the S/C Boss.

Quite different situations on each side of the fence.

[ILLaViTaR]

Sorry if this has already been brought up but doesn't that logically mean a LOT of people are wrongly claiming V8's against their tax?? I doubt everyone who bought one is an employed V8 supercar driver. So why am I paying for it?

How many bloody pram/fleet cars have v8 donks wasting away under them?...

I would like a v8 myself one day and don't see why I'm paying for other people's V8's to simply hold better resale/not actually required for work purposes. They could probably afford one over me anyway without the tax deductions yet I pay for it?

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by ILLaViTaR

Sorry if this has already been brought up but doesn't that logically mean a LOT of people are wrongly claiming V8's against their tax?? I doubt everyone who bought one is an employed V8 supercar driver. So why am I paying for it?

How many bloody pram/fleet cars have v8 donks wasting away under them?...

I would like a v8 myself one day and don't see why I'm paying for other people's V8's to simply hold better resale/not actually required for work purposes. They could probably afford one over me anyway without the tax deductions yet I pay for it?

SO????

I have a V8 and it is paid by my company and is also claimed on by tax? WTF are you on about? In fact I had 3 V8's at one stage ... now I have only 5 petrol and 2 diesel used for work.

If people are buying V8's and claiming through work and that is the reason why lots of V8's are being sold ...... big stiff! Your point is pointless.. I know a few with V8 Landcruisers used for work cars. I didn't know there was a specific type that you had to buy?

This thread is bordering on the ridiculous with some of the comments .......