Should volunteer firefighters get paid?

[MITCHAY]

Another thing I had not thought of until now, but does NSW and other states have the equivalent of a CFU (Community Fire Unit)?

I have seen the trailers every now and again for years but have since found there are now 50 of these since 2003. https://esa.act.gov.au/join-us/volun...ity-fire-units

They get training and equipment supplied by F&R so they can put out the spotting in their local areas which are high risk so the RFS and F&R can deploy to more urgent issues.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by minheim

In the 1994 bushfire emergency period Paul Keating authorised payments for Volunteer firefighters that had their regular employer wages compromised by their absence fighting fires. See the attached link - https://www.reddit.com/r/AusPol/comm...ting_did_in_a/
Quite a contrast to Scott Morrison who is sitting on his hands. Apparently volunteers who are on New Start have had their payments stopped due to missing requirements whilst fighting fires.

Love to know how many could actually claim, I know as a single man at the time I was ineligible

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by minheim

In the 1994 bushfire emergency period Paul Keating authorised payments for Volunteer firefighters that had their regular employer wages compromised by their absence fighting fires. See the attached link - https://www.reddit.com/r/AusPol/comm...ting_did_in_a/
Quite a contrast to Scott Morrison who is sitting on his hands. Apparently volunteers who are on New Start have had their payments stopped due to missing requirements whilst fighting fires.

See, now that just really pi22es me off...

Let me guess... the computer did it without anyone knowing??

Above it was mentioned that the average age of our volunteers is much older than it should be, filled by 'typical Aussie types' that are into fishing, camping and the usual outdoors stuff that they are used to doing.

Look at recent population trends - lots of units, helicopter parents, cotton wool wrapped kids that need supervision into their teens and would cry at getting a splinter or the sight of a mozzie.

Unless we create incentives to get more people into volunteer mode come 5-10 years from now there will be hardly anyone around to help out like what is happening now.

[MITCHAY]

I don't really think we need more incentive to volunteer but this is going beyond giving up a bit of time.

I was just reading an article yesterday where they supposedly have hundreds on the waiting list around here. In fact I looked around the local brigades and some are wanting people and others are saying to put yourself on a wait list.

How much of that is genuine is one thing and obviously they cannot be made immediately effective but even with volunteer work there is still the need to have a funded position with equipment regardless of if they give their time for free.

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

I don't really think we need more incentive to volunteer but this is going beyond giving up a bit of time.

I was just reading an article yesterday where they supposedly have hundreds on the waiting list around here. In fact I looked around the local brigades and some are wanting people and others are saying to put yourself on a wait list.

How much of that is genuine is one thing and obviously they cannot be made immediately effective but even with volunteer work there is still the need to have a funded position with equipment regardless of if they give their time for free.

Interesting point.

Year 12 students all of a sudden get a great 'urge' to volunteer because they need to show community support and involvement in their Uni applications and be able to provide references and proof if needed at course entry interviews.

I helped a housemate apply for PR and the hoops they made him jump through involved joining a few community groups and providing proof that he attended activities and helped out where needed.

Would love to know what happens after they get into Uni or get their PR regarding the continuation of their community involvement.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Interesting point.

Year 12 students all of a sudden get a great 'urge' to volunteer because they need to show community support and involvement in their Uni applications and be able to provide references and proof if needed at course entry interviews.

I helped a housemate apply for PR and the hoops they made him jump through involved joining a few community groups and providing proof that he attended activities and helped out where needed.

Would love to know what happens after they get into Uni or get their PR regarding the continuation of their community involvement.

We're losing two of our blokes next year because they're moving regional for PR reasons with this new incentive program, they're coming back to Melbourne once its over though.

[snap0964]

Just a quick one about 'unprecedented' heatwaves:
Some good reading too at the web-link lower left.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Interesting point.

Year 12 students all of a sudden get a great 'urge' to volunteer because they need to show community support and involvement in their Uni applications and be able to provide references and proof if needed at course entry interviews.

I helped a housemate apply for PR and the hoops they made him jump through involved joining a few community groups and providing proof that he attended activities and helped out where needed.

Would love to know what happens after they get into Uni or get their PR regarding the continuation of their community involvement.

I get your point but I'd highly doubt anyone would volunteer for fire fighting of all things just to tick some boxes. Much less extreme avenues to go for that.

My point was that in the heat of the moment a lot of people want to do something but it becomes something else when they understand it's gonna be a year to get to a point where they are trained and will that motivation still be there.

[Cav]

Originally Posted by snap0964

Just a quick one about 'unprecedented' heatwaves:
Some good reading too at the web-link lower left.

image

It's a waste of time arguing with facts.

Just call each other names.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Cav

image

It's a waste of time arguing with facts.

Just call each other names.

How dare you!

[roKWiz]

Thanks Cav, for the info.

We thank all the paid support roles the armed forces supplied which brings me back to this overview section posted.

And still asks the question Why doesn't Australia have a national type guard, (part of the ADF) own all the equipment necessary and are professionally trained, paid to fight fires on the front line.

Overview

The ADF is not trained, equipped or certified to undertake ground-based or aerial bush firefighting and does not get involved in the direct act of fighting bushfires outside Defence property.
The Work Health Safety Act 2011 (Commonwealth) (WHS Act) limits the range of tasks that can be undertaken by Defence personnel, which includes the fighting of bushfires.
The state and territory governments have primary responsibility for the protection of life, property and the environment, and for coordinating and planning emergency responses or recovery actions in disaster-affected areas within their jurisdiction.

Seems the whole world is run by insurance companies.

[Giant Cranium]

Originally Posted by Cav

image



It's a waste of time arguing with facts.



Just call each other names.

Ah the days when the thermometer was placed in direct sunlight. Not the shade like modern times

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Thanks Cav, for the info.

We thank all the paid support roles the armed forces supplied which brings me back to this overview section posted.

And still asks the question Why doesn't Australia have a national type guard, (part of the ADF) own all the equipment necessary and are professionally trained, paid to fight fires on the front line.

Overview

The ADF is not trained, equipped or certified to undertake ground-based or aerial bush firefighting and does not get involved in the direct act of fighting bushfires outside Defence property.
The Work Health Safety Act 2011 (Commonwealth) (WHS Act) limits the range of tasks that can be undertaken by Defence personnel, which includes the fighting of bushfires.
The state and territory governments have primary responsibility for the protection of life, property and the environment, and for coordinating and planning emergency responses or recovery actions in disaster-affected areas within their jurisdiction.

Seems the whole world is run by insurance companies.

Here is another interesting study with the ADF being used in the black Saturday bushfires in 2009:

The legal danger is that in the intensity of an emergency, with lives at risk, ADF members will not hesitate to do whatever they can to help.29 This is risky because action undertaken in response to an emergency may interfere with people’s rights, for example: entering, damaging or destroying property or closing roads.

Each state and territory has legislative arrangements establishing various emergency service agencies and empowering such agencies to lawfully take action that could otherwise constitute a tort or crime.30 However, none specifically contemplates the possibility that ADF personnel will be used to augment emergency services. Therefore, ADF personnel have no more power or authority when assisting emergency services than any member of the public. But, unlike a private person, ADF personnel do not qualify for protection against civil liability under ‘Good Samaritan’ legislation because assistance rendered by ADF members (in that capacity) occurs in the course of paid duty.31 Therefore an ADF member (or the Commonwealth as the ‘employer’),32 if subject to a civil suit arising from disaster response activities, may (in the absence of any other legislative protection) only be able to rely upon common law defences, such as ‘necessity’. Further, some actions may give rise to criminal liability.

https://knowledge.aidr.org.au/resour...-a-case-study/

Looks like it's a legal and political grey area for the Federal Government to use the ADF in disaster relief and the ADF members themselves and the federal government are open to criminal and civil lawsuit with no legal protection that our emergency services have.

[Cav]

Originally Posted by Giant Cranium

Ah the days when the thermometer was placed in direct sunlight. Not the shade like modern times

Your grasp of history needs to be updated.

Stop getting your info from the ABC and check out historical data yourself, you may just turn into a sceptic.


When it comes to our rare high-quality historic records, and the real long term trends of Australian weather, the silence is striking. There are some excellent historical records of long term temperature data from the late 1800s in Australia, which lie underused and largely ignored by the BOM.

For the BOM, history almost appears to start in 1910, yet the modern type of Stevenson screen thermometer was installed across Australia starting as early as 1884 in Adelaide. Most stations in Queensland were converted as long ago as 1889 and in South Australia by 1892. Though states like NSW and Victoria were delayed until 1908.

The BOM don’t often mention all their older temperature data. They argue that all the recordings then were not taken with standardized equipment. The BOM prefers to start long term graphs and trends from 1910 (except when they start in 1950 or 1970, or 1993).

The BOM was set up in 1908. Before that there were Stevenson screens going in all over Australia, but somehow these records appear uninteresting to climate researchers. Could it be that the late 1800s would have been more captivating if they were colder? In the late 1800′s there was the widespread heatwave of 1896 killing hundreds of people and recording 50C plus temperatures across the continent as well as the infamous Federation Drought?

Figure that if the BOM were curious about long term natural trends, it would not be impossible for a PhD student to compare the distant past and estimate those long trends. (If two stands of trees in 1200AD are accurate to 0.1C, why not actual, but non-standard thermometers in 1890?)

Not only were some stations using Stevenson screens in Australia, but other types of non-standard but common screens were documented, along with sites, and there were studies of overlapping data. (Though there were also some highly irregular sites that would defy analysis). More to the point, with millions in government grants available for research, the BOM could even recreate some historic sites and do modern side-by-side comparisons. Surely in the space age we can figure out the temperature differences of wooden boxes?

Suppose for a moment that the old records showed cool summers, or demonstrated that Australia had warmed by two degrees instead of one? Wouldn’t there rather be a flood of papers adjusting and homogenising Glaishers and Stevensons, and perhaps even sheds and octagons? Whole new museums could spring forth, recreating sacred meteorology stations from 1862. School children would file by and gasp!

[snap0964]

Originally Posted by Cav

It's a waste of time arguing with facts.
Just call each other names.

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

How dare you!

Ohh you denier you !!
They'll be no Nobel Peace Prize for you.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by snap0964

Ohh you denier you !!
They'll be no Nobel Peace Prize for you.

Might be able to wrangle the front cover of Time magazine though - its been graced by Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin, according to Twitter I fit in there somewhere

[roddy1960]

So ...When the volunteers have to go through the same stuff that the full timers have to when major events like this example from 2013 here in my home State I'd love to see some sort of worthwhile offset for them even if it's not a direct financial payment .

Being on call for incidents is one thing but literally putting your life on the line and out on the front line fighting intense fires like this and others around our country deserves more than just recognition or a merit certification I think .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ceyLRogRlk...

[Giant Cranium]

Originally Posted by Cav

Your grasp of history needs to be updated.



Stop getting your info from the ABC and check out historical data yourself, you may just turn into a sceptic.





When it comes to our rare high-quality historic records, and the real long term trends of Australian weather, the silence is striking. There are some excellent historical records of long term temperature data from the late 1800s in Australia, which lie underused and largely ignored by the BOM.



For the BOM, history almost appears to start in 1910, yet the modern type of Stevenson screen thermometer was installed across Australia starting as early as 1884 in Adelaide. Most stations in Queensland were converted as long ago as 1889 and in South Australia by 1892. Though states like NSW and Victoria were delayed until 1908.



The BOM don’t often mention all their older temperature data. They argue that all the recordings then were not taken with standardized equipment. The BOM prefers to start long term graphs and trends from 1910 (except when they start in 1950 or 1970, or 1993).



The BOM was set up in 1908. Before that there were Stevenson screens going in all over Australia, but somehow these records appear uninteresting to climate researchers. Could it be that the late 1800s would have been more captivating if they were colder? In the late 1800′s there was the widespread heatwave of 1896 killing hundreds of people and recording 50C plus temperatures across the continent as well as the infamous Federation Drought?



Figure that if the BOM were curious about long term natural trends, it would not be impossible for a PhD student to compare the distant past and estimate those long trends. (If two stands of trees in 1200AD are accurate to 0.1C, why not actual, but non-standard thermometers in 1890?)



Not only were some stations using Stevenson screens in Australia, but other types of non-standard but common screens were documented, along with sites, and there were studies of overlapping data. (Though there were also some highly irregular sites that would defy analysis). More to the point, with millions in government grants available for research, the BOM could even recreate some historic sites and do modern side-by-side comparisons. Surely in the space age we can figure out the temperature differences of wooden boxes?



Suppose for a moment that the old records showed cool summers, or demonstrated that Australia had warmed by two degrees instead of one? Wouldn’t there rather be a flood of papers adjusting and homogenising Glaishers and Stevensons, and perhaps even sheds and octagons? Whole new museums could spring forth, recreating sacred meteorology stations from 1862. School children would file by and gasp!

Yeh I don’t listen to the abc. I also don’t believe images from the internet that is used to prove a point. Anyone could label that image with what ever words they wanted to prove a point.

I also know that you will already look for anything to prove your point. It’s the art of the cav

I also don’t have a view on climate change either way. We can’t be helping it the way we all live but I love the way we live. Don’t really want to give up any mod cons.

[Giant Cranium]

Damn cav I just read that whole article you posted. Those sorts of articles have as many counter arguments making valid points. Who can be bothered caring that much

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by Giant Cranium

I also don’t have a view on climate change either way. We can’t be helping it the way we all live but I love the way we live. Don’t really want to give up any mod cons.

My two cents is we go for the 'low hanging fruit' first.

Australian standard for fuel to improve to regulate low sulfur fuels.

No more 91

Introduction of E85 availability similar to Brazil (side benefit of supporting local farmers)

New residential construction standards study to consider renewable energy capability - ie housing estates being 'microgrids'

Way of life stays the same but easy reductions on the board that aren't overly costly, keeps greenies happy, keeps conservatives happy and numbers on paper will change.

I don't have a strong view either way on the issue, we probably should look at improving things where we can easily.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

My two cents is we go for the 'low hanging fruit' first.

Australian standard for fuel to improve to regulate low sulfur fuels.

No more 91

Introduction of E85 availability similar to Brazil (side benefit of supporting local farmers)

New residential construction standards study to consider renewable energy capability - ie housing estates being 'microgrids'

Way of life stays the same but easy reductions on the board that aren't overly costly, keeps greenies happy, keeps conservatives happy and numbers on paper will change.

I don't have a strong view either way on the issue, we probably should look at improving things where we can easily.

My biggest gripe with new house builds is the amount of fresh drinkable water being flushed down toilets and the fact so many new housing estates are banning the use of recycled building materials in construction.

[Adamz Ghia]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

My two cents is we go for the 'low hanging fruit' first.

Australian standard for fuel to improve to regulate low sulfur fuels.

No more 91

Introduction of E85 availability similar to Brazil (side benefit of supporting local farmers)

New residential construction standards study to consider renewable energy capability - ie housing estates being 'microgrids'

Way of life stays the same but easy reductions on the board that aren't overly costly, keeps greenies happy, keeps conservatives happy and numbers on paper will change.

I don't have a strong view either way on the issue, we probably should look at improving things where we can easily.

Mate, that is far too simple and straight forward, neither side would go for it.

[roddy1960]

Originally Posted by Giant Cranium

Yeh I don’t listen to the abc. I also don’t believe images from the internet that is used to prove a point. Anyone could label that image with what ever words they wanted to prove a point.

I also know that you will already look for anything to prove your point. It’s the art of the cav

I also don’t have a view on climate change either way. We can’t be helping it the way we all live but I love the way we live. Don’t really want to give up any mod cons.

It's a pity you don't listen to the ABC because you miss out on reports like this if you care to watch it through for me. That's all I ask. Hopefully you will spare some time to watch this disturbing story and I'd love to know if it shifts your opinion a little bit . It might .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9GUWhqp1vU... Thanks...By the way there's not an ounce of greenie in me either in case you think that's my agenda. I just hate seeing beautiful areas get lost forever.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

Interesting point.

Year 12 students all of a sudden get a great 'urge' to volunteer because they need to show community support and involvement in their Uni applications and be able to provide references and proof if needed at course entry interviews.

I helped a housemate apply for PR and the hoops they made him jump through involved joining a few community groups and providing proof that he attended activities and helped out where needed.

Would love to know what happens after they get into Uni or get their PR regarding the continuation of their community involvement.

Having an old boat at the time I once applied to volunteer to do work for the Sydney Heritage Fleet (restoring old historic boats) the hoops you had to jump through just to help them out wasn't worth the hassle in the end.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

My biggest gripe with new house builds is the amount of fresh drinkable water being flushed down toilets and the fact so many new housing estates are banning the use of recycled building materials in construction.

There's new housing estates going up everywhere here out in boganistan and barely any of the houses have solar - and there's some big spondoolies houses going up sans solar.

That's the thing with renewable energy is that people are all for it until they've got to foot the bill then its all crickets chirping.

What appeals to me is independence from the grid but it would add another $100K easily to the price of your build - but that's just my pig headed '**** the system' mentality rather than concern for the environment

[Yellow_Festiva]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

Having an old boat at the time I once applied to volunteer to do work for the Sydney Heritage Fleet (restoring old historic boats) the hoops you had to jump through just to help them out wasn't worth the hassle in the end.

Much the same with adoption. You got so many kids needing a home yet it's near impossible to adopt because of the red tape and mountains of paperwork required.

Hugh Jackman's wife did a lot to expose the BS involved in adopting.



Sent from my LG-M700 using Tapatalk

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

There's new housing estates going up everywhere here out in boganistan and barely any of the houses have solar - and there's some big spondoolies houses going up sans solar.

That's the thing with renewable energy is that people are all for it until they've got to foot the bill then its all crickets chirping.

Spot on, everyone want govco. funded cheap power.
I'm by no means a greenie but built my own little 400ft square house out of recycled crap, installing, bio fuel back up, composting toilet, offgrid solar and wind power out of my own pocket.

Nothing flash but I'm happy with it and not in debt to anyone. (scratch that I owe 25 bucks this quarter to GV water for a supply pipe running past my property.)

Its just simple stuff I learnt living aboard boats and being offgrid for years travelling.

[Cav]

Originally Posted by Giant Cranium

Yeh I don’t listen to the abc. I also don’t believe images from the internet that is used to prove a point. Anyone could label that image with what ever words they wanted to prove a point.

I also know that you will already look for anything to prove your point. It’s the art of the cav

I also don’t have a view on climate change either way. We can’t be helping it the way we all live but I love the way we live. Don’t really want to give up any mod cons.

You bin on the rum again boy?

[snap0964]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

Might be able to wrangle the front cover of Time magazine though - its been graced by Adolf Hitler and Joseph Stalin, according to Twitter I fit in there somewhere

You guys might need to settle for an Ahn Do mural on the side of Flinders st station - maybe something like this ?

[roKWiz]

Yep saw that the other day nearby the Benalla bridge fortunately there is this around the corner.