Engine Damage - Run with Oil light showing for 2 minutes

[MrEL]

I cant believe the amount of people here who think the oil pressure light is a low oil warning!
For a Forum for supposed car enthousiests geez there are some half wits here.
The oil pressure light comes on when it has NO OIL PRESSURE , nothing to do with the level. It could have 5 litres in it and the oil pump fail and the light would come on.
As far as what to do with the kid and her boyfriend? Give them stuff all and let them fall on their face. Only way they will learn to get their stuff together. If you keep wiping thei rrear ends for them it will never end.

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

I have been in similar situ ..
I tell them in no uncertain terms to GET YA FREGAN ACT TOGETER !!!!
Dept is an issue too...

Yeah, parental advice has to be kept to one liners.
Its like they have this incredibly finely tuned warning system for parental advice. If they even get a wiff of the possibility of incoming parental advice, its like this warning system goes off in their head WARNING WARNING INCOMING PARENTAL ADVICE SHUT DOWN ALL MENTAL RECEPTORS.

If you can just blurt the advice out on a one line statement there's a small chance one can get in before the walls go up

The other trick, I havn't had much sucess with this, is to try and make them think that a good idea was actually theirs. Something like, have you ever stopped and thought how much money you're spending each week on those 3 habits of yours. Trouble is that usually comes with some well considered response like, Its my life, get off my back, I don't need a lecture, stop riding me, you know, just the usual... gosh this bleating thing is good isn't it, I'm starting to feel really good now Better quit while I'm ahead

[gtxb67]

i thought the light was for low oil pressure, not zero - it is a warning that the owner should check it more regularly though

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

i thought it was for low oil pressure, not zero - it is a warning that the owner should check it more regularly though

me toooo.. it has a set point above 0.. say 15psi..

you could be driving around with 16psi thinking all is sweet...

[pottery beige]

Originally Posted by Rodge

Yeah, parental advice has to be kept to one liners.
Its like they have this incredibly finely tuned warning system for parental advice. If they even get a wiff of the possibility of incoming parental advice, its like this warning system goes off in their head WARNING WARNING INCOMING PARENTAL ADVICE SHUT DOWN ALL MENTAL RECEPTORS.

If you can just blurt the advice out on a one line statement there's a small chance one can get in before the walls go up

The other trick, I havn't had much sucess with this, is to try and make them think that a good idea was actually theirs. Something like, have you ever stopped and thought how much money you're spending each week on those 3 habits of yours. Trouble is that usually comes wityh some well considered response like, Its our life, get off my back, I don't need a lecture, stop riding me, you know, just the usual... gosh this bleating thing is good isn't it, i'm starting to feel really good now Better quit while I'm ahead

send them a linky to this thread.. heaps of free advice going around..

feel the love..

[Franco Cozzo]

Thats how we know when the old mans 323 needs more oil, oil light comes on, and the sump is just about dry haha.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

me toooo.. it has a set point above 0.. say 15psi..

you could be driving around with 16psi thinking all is sweet...

true, an example of why an accurate gauge is the way to go

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

send them a linky to this thread.. heaps of free advice going around..

feel the love..

What a brilliant idea mate, I might just do that. Awesome !!!!!!!

[burnz]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

i thought the light was for low oil pressure, not zero - it is a warning that the owner should check it more regularly though

correct and as above statment.
it's a pressure gauge, low or zero.
not a level gauge

[Fantome]

Off topic Rodge but I feel your pain. Daughter from first marriage was a bit "independent" during her early teens. Mother and new hubby got sick of her and packed her off to me.

We got on fine and she has turned into a wonderful young woman and mother of two delightful children. Non smoker of either variety, she is very good with money and is married to a lovely young man (even though he's a kiwi !)with a great job in IT for a major bank.

I gave her a 1998 Magna three years ago when they married and had no car but the other day she rings to say they have bought a new car because it's safer for the kids. Sounds good so far doesn't it? The car is a Camry, a white one!

Where have I gone wrong!!!

[XDV800]

Originally Posted by Rodge

I think in the context of the value of the car the Mechanics approach has been fair and reasonable, (re-inbursing for the original night-time tow, organising a tow the very next morning to his workshop, new oil, filter, sump plug and complimentary replacement tyre) and this young couple take heart from the promise that if there's further problems to bring it back they'll look after them. They realise this vehicle is approaching its end of useful life so in the context of the circumstances are making plans to look at upgrading at some stage soon anyway, (not sure how soon, havn't spoken to them again today).

.

Pretty much a thumbs up to you here for the understanding approach to the situation. Many would have gone kicking and screaming into offending mechanics face and gotten a different outcome for their trouble.

To all those bleeding on about engine damage and oil light for low oil...most of it is a load of bollocks.

The oil light would have come on after half the sumps oil capacity had disappeared, uncovering the oil pickup to the negative pressure in the sump.
Oil pressure obviously drops as there is no longer a seal between the immersion in oil of the pick-up to the pump, and the reserve supply of oil from the filter has been just about used up allowing pressure to suddenly drop.

Light comes on.

However, a few minutes of continued low stress driving would in all reality have caused zero harm to bearings or cams or anything in MOST cases, although it is not outside of the realms of possibility.. There will remain a fillm of oil on parts which will gradually run out and dry causing heat, then friction and then damage, then failure. None of that is instantaneous though.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by MrEL

For a Forum for supposed car enthousiests geez there are some half wits here.
The oil pressure light comes on when it has NO OIL PRESSURE , nothing to do with the level..

Are you sure the level being too low wont cause a drop in oil pressure?

Originally Posted by pottery beige

me toooo.. it has a set point above 0.. say 15psi..

you could be driving around with 16psi thinking all is sweet...

Typical low pressure switch kicks in at 7psi. 16psi would be too high for many most engines when idling after a hot highway run.

Originally Posted by gtxb67

true, an example of why an accurate gauge is the way to go

accurate gauge is really only of use to the mechanically inclined, teenage girl driving car, what is she going to make of where it sits.

Regardless, are you going to be checking the oil gauge every 15 seconds while driving to check if the sump plug suddenly parts company? Nothing wrong with having the gauge, but this shouldn't be at the exclusion of the low pressure switch/idiot light(audible buzzer preferred), for occasions when an idiot is driving or the loss of oil pressure is sudden. Same goes for temp as well.

In regards to the service centre that didnt do the plug up tight? Every one makes mistakes? well perhaps, but they should be fully responsible for the consequences, that's why we pay them good money just to drop the oil. There are certain aspects to repairing cars that ought to be double checked depending what was worked on before they leave the shop....ie wheel nuts, suspension mountings, sump plug, brake lines fittings

[gtxb67]

yes sudzsy, i was talking about high performance cars - you know, the cars that are the work of lucifer himself

[BadMax]

Originally Posted by MrEL

I cant believe the amount of people here who think the oil pressure light is a low oil warning!
For a Forum for supposed car enthousiests geez there are some half wits here.
The oil pressure light comes on when it has NO OIL PRESSURE , nothing to do with the level. It could have 5 litres in it and the oil pump fail and the light would come on.

Ah no in short. Oil warning light will come on with low oil pressure not last resort of no oil pressure, from either a failure from a pump or even a bearing and certainly from low oil volume.

Anyway, Rodge I appluad you for just getting on with it rather than going down the path it sounded like you were insisting on.

As far as advice goes on the kids...Well I don't have any but I've seen what bail outs do to my sister inlaw and it aint worth it, 10k credit debt paid out then it snow balled into a 30K credit debt getting paid out as well as a brand new car because her car was shagged. Maybe some tough love like turning you back on them until they pull their heads in?

[jixel 78]

I remember VN 5 litres had a circuit in the ignition which was connected to the oil pressure switch. No oil pressure, no sparks. Brilliant. Never seen another car have that, although there`d be plenty, I`m sure. My sisters BA gets a service every 40 to 50k. Sludged to hell. It lost all its oil and came to a shuddering stop, the starter wasnt goin to turn that puppy. Of course the quotes came in, and it was duly towed to my house.(ahh family) Pulled the sump, cleaned the pick up, filled it up.The noise it made for the first 10 seconds was audible for miles around,then, sweet.Probably hasnt been changed since, it lives in Broome. I reckon if it was a fresh engine, no motion lotion wouldve killed it.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by jixel 78

I remember VN 5 litres had a circuit in the ignition which was connected to the oil pressure switch. No oil pressure, no sparks. .

Sure about this, Was this bypassed for starting?, usually takes 5-10secs of cranking to get the oil pressure up, which would be very irritating for many. sometimes some have their fuel pump relay setup via the oil pressure gauge for safety, but such systems are primitive in the extreme.



Would prefer that the driver has the choice of shutting down the engine themselves, it may be worth trashing the engine if it means getting the car out of a dangerous situation

With due respect, are you sure the vehicle you observed this on wasnt modified. I cant seriously believe a manufacturer would expose themselves to the problems of engineering the engine to stop leaving the driver potentially without power, brakes and steering.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by sudszy

Sure about this, Was this bypassed for starting?, usually takes 5-10secs of cranking to get the oil pressure up, which would be very irritating for many. sometimes some have their fuel pump relay setup via the oil pressure gauge for safety, but such systems are primitive in the extreme.



Would prefer that the driver has the choice of shutting down the engine themselves, it may be worth trashing the engine if it means getting the car out of a dangerous situation

With due respect, are you sure the vehicle you observed this on wasnt modified. I cant seriously believe a manufacturer would expose themselves to the problems of engineering the engine to stop leaving the driver potentially without power, brakes and steering.

all holdens run this.
start on one relay and then switch to oil relay.
in case of accident where a fuel line was torn it would cut power to the spark and fuel pump.

[wrongwaynorris]

To all the people who have had an oil pressure warning light come on and not sustained any lasting damage . An oil pressure warning light is just that a warning of low oil PRESSURE not level . Rodges daughters car had NO sump plug and consequently pumped the engine dry and if run for 2 minutes there is absolutely no way there is NOT bearing damage . Regardless of the age or mileage of the car the mechanic has at a minimum a moral obligation and I strongly suspect a legal one to at least drop the sump and inspect the big ends and mains . If you look in most racing cars there is a big bright red light hooked to the oil pressure sensor and I have known guys who the instant they saw it illuminate cut the ignition and still sustained bearing damage .

[wrongwaynorris]

" I remember VN 5 litres had a circuit in the ignition which was connected to the oil pressure switch. No oil pressure, no sparks. Brilliant. "

I have done exactly this to all my cars over the years , but only when the solenoid is engaged ie holding the key in the cranking position , works absolutely brilliantly . 99% of normal wear to bearings is done on initial startup .

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by burnz

all holdens run this.
start on one relay and then switch to oil relay.
in case of accident where a fuel line was torn it would cut power to the spark and fuel pump.

Really, so all holdens(those with mechanical fuel pumps as well) dont really need to come with oil pressure lights because the motor will stop in seconds due to the fuel pump dying anyway?

Without wishing to be argumentative, I simply dont believe it. Computerised systems in modern cars for this use the crank angle sensor to evaluate whether the engine is still turning.

[sudszy]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

" I remember VN 5 litres had a circuit in the ignition which was connected to the oil pressure switch. No oil pressure, no sparks. Brilliant. "

I have done exactly this to all my cars over the years , but only when the solenoid is engaged ie holding the key in the cranking position , works absolutely brilliantly . 99% of normal wear to bearings is done on initial startup .

Nothing wrong with that, used to do the same by applying a kill switch until it had pressure, though I have no objective evidence that it makes any difference, the motor still has to be turned without oil pressure for the same number of revolutions(possibly more) before it has oil pressure in the right places, though moving slower for those first revs would have to be an advantage.

[gtxb67]

out of curiosity, where did all the oil go. was there any under the car when your daughter stopped it. was there a consistent slick until the off ramp or was there one massive puddle 2 minutes before the off ramp, with not even drops after it

the placement of oil on the road will give you an idea when it ran dry

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

To all the people who have had an oil pressure warning light come on and not sustained any lasting damage . An oil pressure warning light is just that a warning of low oil PRESSURE not level . Rodges daughters car had NO sump plug and consequently pumped the engine dry and if run for 2 minutes there is absolutely no way there is NOT bearing damage . Regardless of the age or mileage of the car the mechanic has at a minimum a moral obligation and I strongly suspect a legal one to at least drop the sump and inspect the big ends and mains . If you look in most racing cars there is a big bright red light hooked to the oil pressure sensor and I have known guys who the instant they saw it illuminate cut the ignition and still sustained bearing damage .

Thanks for that. I'm inclined to agree that there has been some damage. Honestly if this were a high value car I'd be recommending that this young couple take a different approach but taking into account all the circumstances, (age, mileage, car value) including the mechanics approach to date and undertaking that if there is future problems they'll look after them, a pragmatic approach to seeing how it plays out feels about right to me and perhaps more importantly the young couple are content with that.
We're going to be advising and enouraging them to put the extra $140 a week they're getting from the new flatmate to good use in terms of saving for a better car. Whether they listen remains to be seen...

[RASER]

Originally Posted by Fantome

The car is a Camry, a white one!

Where have I gone wrong!!!

NOTHING wrong with the Camry, part of the BigT[tm.F/0] family its bulletproof

When the world ends, and everything sinks back into the earth, last thing standing will be a Toyota LandCruiser

Did you get the Magna back?

[Rodge]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

out of curiosity, where did all the oil go. was there any under the car when your daughter stopped it. was there a consistent slick until the off ramp or was there one massive puddle 2 minutes before the off ramp, with not even drops after it.
the placement of oil on the road will give you an idea when it ran dry

I feel bad about that and would like to know too. I guess it must have poured out in a manner consistent with how oil normally comes out of a sump when the sump plug is removed, then again, maybe not, I don't know as I've never seen how it would come out with the sump plug removed and the engine still running, maybe it really shoots it out under pressure but I didn't have the opportunity to investigate it because this whole thing started at about 6.00 pm the other night and it was allready dark and getting quite cold. By the time we'd organised a tow truck to up-lift the car, took us 4 phone calls can you believe it, (obviously Auckland towies don't like working on winter nights either), notoified the Police about the spilt oil and sorted out exactly where they were, and met up with them it was getting on to sometime after 7.00 pm, I think it was about 7.15 p.m. when I arrived and was getting very, very cold especially for the youngster who is only 1 1/2 years old and wasn't dressed for those conditions. Had to get them home and a good hot feed ASAP. I guess I could go back and have a look at the motorway and off ramp e.t.c. now and maybe see where the evidence might be but everyone here seems of a mind to see how this plays out in the natural course of events.

[Rodge]

Famtome - Thanks mate. I was thinking of encouraging them to move up to something like a 4-5 five year old Toyota Corolla 1.8 litre...where have I gone wrong

[BadMax]

Originally Posted by wrongwaynorris

If you look in most racing cars there is a big bright red light hooked to the oil pressure sensor and I have known guys who the instant they saw it illuminate cut the ignition and still sustained bearing damage .

Yep, because they were in top gear bouncing off the limiter on an NZ motorway

[poppa smurf]

as for telling them about the wastage on smokes and "other stuff" .......gently tell them they dodged a bullet then shut your mouth......far better to see the kids and grandkids than to have a barney over a trivial thing like money and be locked out of their life forever

they will grow up one day!

[Rodge]

Thanks Dave. Good wisdom there. Over the years we've tried a variety of ways to manage what at times has been an extremly challanging relationship and have done the complete cold shoulder thing from many many months and let them fall on their face, didn't work too well, anyway we still love our daughter very much and he's growing up slowly too and in some ways is a likeable rogue despite the absolute tonne of grief he's caused us...anyway, have I mentioned how much we love our granddaughter ?, she's an absolute delight and its so nice that they're in the next suburb over from us only about 4 km's from us, (wasn't always the case). Yeah gentle encouragement and provision of on-going support when required is how we're thinking and the way to go as they don't seem to like being told what to do that's for sure and the reality is they're not going to grow up overnight and kick those habits straight away no matter what we say or do !!
I know they were both very appreciative of our assistance with this matter this week and they know we are there in the background ready to provide support if required, so we've certainly got a warm fuzzies going with those two at the momentm which is a real good thing.
Gee this is a good forum eh !! Even got some good parenting advice

[Fantome]

Originally Posted by poppa smurf

they will grow up one day!

Absolutely right Dave, and no Raser they are keeping the Magna atm as a spare for the days they both need a car.

Don't you just love this forum, engine damage to parenting in less than three pages!