Ford commits to V8 Future

[GT69]

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

If morons like Joshua Dowling among other journos didn't contantly pan the XR8 for being slower than the I6T, it might have sold a little better.

I still remember reading the holy grail of stupidity where the XR8, XR6T and SS were tested in Drive(?) recently - the XR8 was criticised for being too slow and something along the lines of "not going as good as it sounds". The SS was praised for its V8 performance. I read this, then look down the page to see that the XR8 recorded a superior acceleration time than the SS. Absolute joke.

The media has given the XR8 such a bad name, it really is undeserved.

I remember that well, infact i was thinking at the time (but didn't want to bump the thread) People were saying it wasn't biased. The article PROTECTED both Holden cars by not bring the XR6 along, what the heck was the 6T doing there int the first place? It has no direct competitor. I believe the articlec wrote something along the lines of 'The SV6 was a few 1000 dollars cheaper than al others'....well so's the XR6.
And then stated the SS was still a better car than the XR8.

In plan english, the article reads - If you want a 6 turbo, buy the ford, if you want anything else, by the holden.

No wonder the poor XR8 is getting killed in the sales.

The 6T is a god send for journos who are holden fanboys. Because alot of people want an 8. They can openly say how fantastic the 6T is.....BUT if you WANT a V8...the SS is the ONLY option.

Even when all the fords beat the pants off the holden line up, plus ford then offer a world beating 6T as well.

I will say this though, yes the boss wasn't received as well as it should have, alittle hard when the engine wasn't up to scratch on release. Made harder by being out gunned by its stable mate. Once coyote is introduced, i believe sales of all Ford V8's will pick up. There's no price difference/license restriction differences between the 6T and a V8, and depending who your with, a minor insurance difference. I firmly believe that when the V8 is the top power option again (and i mean REAL top power, not just a badge difference of a few KW's) you will see turbo people jump back on the V8 bandwagon.

I have said before, i have a 6T, and i love the thing, I can drive it to work, home and then to the coast, its properly fast and anyone seeing the badge on the back know's it. BUT, it is my intention to keep the 6T, for work and running around, and buy a V8 for those coast trips.

hell im a bachelor, I already spend to much on cars....what do i care about a few extra litres of fuel over a few kilometres?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by GT69

I remember that well, infact i was thinking at the time (but didn't want to bump the thread) People were saying it wasn't biased. The article PROTECTED both Holden cars by not bring the XR6 along, what the heck was the 6T doing there int the first place? It has no direct competitor. I believe the articlec wrote something along the lines of 'The SV6 was a few 1000 dollars cheaper than al others'....well so's the XR6.
And then stated the SS was still a better car than the XR8.

In plan english, the article reads - If you want a 6 turbo, buy the ford, if you want anything else, by the holden.

No wonder the poor XR8 is getting killed in the sales.

The 6T is a god send for journos who are holden fanboys. Because alot of people want an 8. They can openly say how fantastic the 6T is.....BUT if you WANT a V8...the SS is the ONLY option.

Even when all the fords beat the pants off the holden line up, plus ford then offer a world beating 6T as well.

I will say this though, yes the boss wasn't received as well as it should have, alittle hard when the engine wasn't up to scratch on release. Made harder by being out gunned by its stable mate. Once coyote is introduced, i believe sales of all Ford V8's will pick up. There's no price difference/license restriction differences between the 6T and a V8, and depending who your with, a minor insurance difference. I firmly believe that when the V8 is the top power option again (and i mean REAL top power, not just a badge difference of a few KW's) you will see turbo people jump back on the V8 bandwagon.

I have said before, i have a 6T, and i love the thing, I can drive it to work, home and then to the coast, its properly fast and anyone seeing the badge on the back know's it. BUT, it is my intention to keep the 6T, for work and running around, and buy a V8 for those coast trips.

hell im a bachelor, I already spend to much on cars....what do i care about a few extra litres of fuel over a few kilometres?

Very well said.. probably closest post to the reality of things i've read in ages...

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

If you take those numbers quoted that is 1000 V8 units ford sells each year. Yes percentage wise that is not great, but FPV only sell 1500 V8 cars, it just shows that FPV need Ford to keep pushing the V8 out the door to amortise the costs of their own engine development and production line.

Exactly... this is the biggest hint as to the path Ford will take and the reason why dropping the Ford 8 made no sense and the info I had seemed to back it up.

In saying that, there could well be a brand repositioning issue, that date in my sig still stands, and until confirmed, well, just look at my sig every now and then.

[Road_Warrior]

I know Land Rover/Range Rover has been sold off now, but is there any relationship with the Range Rover's new 5.0L V8 (for MY2010) and the Coyote?

EDIT: scratch that, it appears not.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I know Land Rover/Range Rover has been sold off now, but is there any relationship with the Range Rover's new 5.0L V8 (for MY2010) and the Coyote?

EDIT: scratch that, it appears not.

people say there isn't. But there has to be similarities. The jag is 305 ci, almost completely square, DOHC with
VCT and direct injection with a supercharged version available. I would be surprised if all those things are not also true for Coyote. I bet power and torque are pretty close.

[flappist]

I do feel so sorry for coyote and Ford/FPV. If it is not the messiah then the AFF lynch mob will go off like Fred Nile at the Sydney Mardigras.......

It will be a V8 that may be or may not be supercharged, it is not a dylithium powered antimatter burning warp nacelle.

At the risk of igniting blue touch paper I have noticed that despite the best efforts of the supercharger zealots the T6s still appear to be quicker.
I suspect it will be difficult to engineer a belt powered solution that will demonstrate a similar torque curve to a turbo system without making it excessively powerful and stressed at higher revs.
Despite the fantasies of the above mentioned zealots, any vehicle delivered by Ford or FPV must comply with ADRs, emission rules and have a usable life span before major overhaul measured in years and hundreds of thousands of kilometres not months and laps of maccas car parks.

All will be revealed shortly and I do hope that the coyote does not do what the Phase 3 GTHO did on the last episode of Top Gear Australia, that is not even come close to what was expected by the true believers.....

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by chevypower

people say there isn't. But there has to be similarities. The jag is 305 ci, almost completely square, DOHC with
VCT and direct injection with a supercharged version available. I would be surprised if all those things are not also true for Coyote. I bet power and torque are pretty close.

Sure it shares the technologies, but that's about as far as it goes. The block and heads will be unique and the First generation N/A Coyote will not be direct injection, and I don't expect ANY direct injection application on N/A versions.

[Transfiguring R]

Originally Posted by flappist

I do feel so sorry for coyote and Ford/FPV. If it is not the messiah then the AFF lynch mob will go off like Fred Nile at the Sydney Mardigras.......

...

At the risk of igniting blue touch paper I have noticed that despite the best efforts of the supercharger zealots the T6s still appear to be quicker.
I suspect it will be difficult to engineer a belt powered solution that will demonstrate a similar torque curve to a turbo system without making it excessively powerful and stressed at higher revs.
Despite the fantasies of the above mentioned zealots, any vehicle delivered by Ford or FPV must comply with ADRs, emission rules and have a usable life span before major overhaul measured in years and hundreds of thousands of kilometres not months and laps of maccas car parks.

...

I've been concerned about this for a while. I remember seeing similarly powered F6 Typhoon and supercharged Super Pursuit dyno graphs. The F6's power is delivered sooner. This new V8 will need to be supercharged and will need to put out more power to beat the current F6's performance.

It will be interesting to see how the new engined XR8 compares to the XR6T, especially if the XR8 isn't supercharged. The current XR6T is a very fast car.

If the new engine turns out to be ripper, how long will it take for it to be a success in terms of sales? A year? Two years?

[burnz]

Originally Posted by flappist

I do feel so sorry for coyote and Ford/FPV. If it is not the messiah then the AFF lynch mob will go off like Fred Nile at the Sydney Mardigras.......

It will be a V8 that may be or may not be supercharged, it is not a dylithium powered antimatter burning warp nacelle.

At the risk of igniting blue touch paper I have noticed that despite the best efforts of the supercharger zealots the T6s still appear to be quicker.
I suspect it will be difficult to engineer a belt powered solution that will demonstrate a similar torque curve to a turbo system without making it excessively powerful and stressed at higher revs.
Despite the fantasies of the above mentioned zealots, any vehicle delivered by Ford or FPV must comply with ADRs, emission rules and have a usable life span before major overhaul measured in years and hundreds of thousands of kilometres not months and laps of maccas car parks.

All will be revealed shortly and I do hope that the coyote does not do what the Phase 3 GTHO did on the last episode of Top Gear Australia, that is not even come close to what was expected by the true believers.....

it is on a very high peddistool, lets hope it can levitate.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Transfiguring R

I've been concerned about this for a while. I remember seeing similarly powered F6 Typhoon and supercharged Super Pursuit dyno graphs. The F6's power is delivered sooner. This new V8 will need to be supercharged and will need to put out more power to beat the current F6's performance.

It will be interesting to see how the new engined XR8 compares to the XR6T, especially if the XR8 isn't supercharged. The current XR6T is a very fast car.

If the new engine turns out to be ripper, how long will it take for it to be a success in terms of sales? A year? Two years?

If the new engine is a success there will be an initial spike, but it will take upto 3-4 years to see its full impact...
Remembering a large % of these vehicles are on a 3-4 year lease cycle.
Its at lease end or change over time that the decision will be made.

[HSE2]

As I have alluded to in the past and my numbers, seem to be exact, is that the FPV engine program requires such volume. Separating the two into a crate / hand built proposition increase viability issues.
The XR8 motor has always been in the plan but not necessarily under that brand. The combine volume requires it to be so.

[Transfiguring R]

3-4 years should be long enough for a supercharged V8 to make a name for itself, especially in a V8 loving country. If they develop it further and there is an update, say 2012 or 2013, that would no doubt attract people back.

I think one of the critical things for Ford to work on is to keep things happening specifically with the V8. In the past they have done this with special value packs (sticker packs), but if they can update this new V8 twice before the Falcon needs an update it'll keep people interested/excited. And I mean decent updates, not 5 to 10 kilowatt gains. As long as they aren't updating as often as HSV, I think it would be a good thing. Would this engine have the potential/scope for this kind of strategy?

[GT69]

I hope they do, but really hope they don't release a supercharged falcon. Because it wont be a fire breathing baby eating monster. We all no what companies are doing with the 6T. The likes of nizpro are building some nice machines. BUT then you see the other side of the coin (as mr 4vman has said) reliability. A supercharged falcon will be at a maximum 350kw. Which will be belong expectations. It will have to be reliable which you don't get the second you start pumping steroids into a car. Gee you've just gotta read these forums to see it. From the fans who complain about warranty, diffs, gearboxes. The 'my car has done 180,000km and the gear box is clunking, i'll never buy another ford' mentality.

[Transfiguring R]

That's true, GT69.

Begs the question, does anyone know how other manufacturers 'charged V8's are for reliability? Are there any charged V8's closer to FPV pricing?

[HSE2]

I have had drive time behind the wheel of factory blown applications from both Land Rover and AMG and obviously some experience with the F6. It’s a non issue.

When you bring the price of any product down, compromises are made. A forced induction IN6 will have no lesser reliability issues than a FI V8 offered by the same company for the same price.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by HSE2

I have had drive time behind the wheel of factory blown applications from both Land Rover and AMG and obviously some experience with the F6. It’s a non issue.

When you bring the price of any product down, compromises are made. A forced induction IN6 will have no lesser reliability issues than a FI V8 offered by the same company for the same price.

Very true...

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

Sure it shares the technologies, but that's about as far as it goes. The block and heads will be unique and the First generation N/A Coyote will not be direct injection, and I don't expect ANY direct injection application on N/A versions.

My understanding is that there would be DI on N/A versions. I am not suggesting that the parts of both engines will be interchangeable as the Jag 5.0 is built on the existing Jag 4.2 engine. But the bore/stroke ratio has got to be close - couple that with everything else that is similar, the characteristics have to be pretty close. Anyway... it's all just speculation until something official comes out. I am keen to know what the bore/stroke ratio definitely is on Coyote.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by chevypower

My understanding is that there would be DI on N/A versions. I am not suggesting that the parts of both engines will be interchangeable as the Jag 5.0 is built on the existing Jag 4.2 engine. But the bore/stroke ratio has got to be close - couple that with everything else that is similar, the characteristics have to be pretty close. Anyway... it's all just speculation until something official comes out. I am keen to know what the bore/stroke ratio definitely is on Coyote.

We shall see. From what I know, Ford are dropping (have dropped) DI for N/A applications. The costs outway the benefits (Power, F.E, emissions etc). When D.I is coupled with F.I, then the numbers are much more supportive.

I hear the bore of Coyote is significantly larger than our BOSS - approaching the 100mm mark.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

I hear the bore of Coyote is significantly larger than our BOSS - approaching the 100mm mark.

THAT is significant....

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

We shall see. From what I know, Ford are dropping (have dropped) DI for N/A applications. The costs outway the benefits (Power, F.E, emissions etc). When D.I is coupled with F.I, then the numbers are much more supportive.

I hear the bore of Coyote is significantly larger than our BOSS - approaching the 100mm mark.

I find that a bit puzzling to be honest....if you develop a DI head for the forced engine why not make it available on NA applications? I realise there will be differences in the engines (substantial possibly) but it just confuses me a bit. Particularly since while fuel economy might be greatly improved in the SC (or turbo?) application with DI but its power/torque/driveability that will help the NA engine. Maybe Ford thinks its a bit easier to just use low blow SC on non DI engines then spend money on DI NA screamers??

[XplosiveR6]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

I find that a bit puzzling to be honest....if you develop a DI head for the forced engine why not make it available on NA applications? I realise there will be differences in the engines (substantial possibly) but it just confuses me a bit. Particularly since while fuel economy might be greatly improved in the SC (or turbo?) application with DI but its power/torque/driveability that will help the NA engine. Maybe Ford thinks its a bit easier to just use low blow SC on non DI engines then spend money on DI NA screamers??

A motor Designed for FI applications will not have the same configurations as a NA motor. Most likely the FI head will be alot different to the NA head, For example FI requires a lower compression ratio where as NA works much better with a high CR, also FI requires stronger valve springs etc. A motor designed for FI applications with not work well as NA and vice-versa, parts cannot be simply interchanged.
So if ford Designs a FI head for DI they cannot simply throw that head on the NA config.

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by XplosiveR6

A motor Designed for FI applications will not have the same configurations as a NA motor. Most likely the FI head will be alot different to the NA head, For example FI requires a lower compression ratio where as NA works much better with a high CR, also FI requires stronger valve springs etc. A motor designed for FI applications with not work well as NA and vice-versa, parts cannot be simply interchanged.
So if ford Designs a FI head for DI they cannot simply throw that head on the NA config.

Yes i see your point. Looking back at my post it would seem i didn't make my point clear. What i meant to say was that if you did the R&D on the DI head design or FI would there not be some way to incorporate that with the NA non DI head and produce a DI NA set up. Of course the atcual part would be very different as you noted but still you'd think there would be some similarity.

I don't claim to be an engine expert (esp. V8s) so perhaps there is just too much difference in the set ups. Certainly i get the parts costs may not be worth it (i.e. compelxity of NA, NA DI, SC, SC DI etc.) but design wise is it really that much different to preclude even bothering?

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

I find that a bit puzzling to be honest....if you develop a DI head for the forced engine why not make it available on NA applications? I realise there will be differences in the engines (substantial possibly) but it just confuses me a bit. Particularly since while fuel economy might be greatly improved in the SC (or turbo?) application with DI but its power/torque/driveability that will help the NA engine. Maybe Ford thinks its a bit easier to just use low blow SC on non DI engines then spend money on DI NA screamers??

I think a possible answer to this is not so much about making it available as that would be easy and not the issue, I would say it's more about how emissions are treated when D.I comes into play and the measures required to meet them.. Remember, as soon as you go D.I, it's a completely different emissions ball game. The costs involved here along with all the other costs of developing and tuning of a D.I engine far out-weight the benefits that D.I, NA engines bring.

The priority has completely shifted to meet emissions targets and fuel economy improvements. To do this, Ford believe the best way to achieve this is to downsize (maximise emissions benefits - particularly off-boost), Forced-Induction (to achieve the performance and drive characteristics of larger engines by increased volume efficiency - compress the air achieving higher volume) and Direct Injection (which will give them the flexibility in tuning to achieve all the above).

That's my take anyhow. ;)

[HSE2]

For those interested in the direction of world class V8s.

http://www.jaguar-enthusiasts.org.uk/aj-v8-gen3.html

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by HSE2

For those interested in the direction of world class V8s.

http://www.jaguar-enthusiasts.org.uk/aj-v8-gen3.html

beautiful...

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Very well said.. probably closest post to the reality of things i've read in ages...

Here is another one of GT69 posts, relating to this.

Originally Posted by GT69

Now now, you should no by now Ford cant win in both models. The XR6T is a hands down winner over any 6 Holden can throw at it....Which means the XR8 has to lose.....If Ford won both, people might actually by them, perceptions might be changed, Holden would stop spending millions per year on advertising, Journos would starve to death....the world would be a better place. You cant have that!

http://www.fordforums.com.au/newrepl...eply&p=2792371

Unfortunately his words are very true.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

We shall see. From what I know, Ford are dropping (have dropped) DI for N/A applications. The costs outway the benefits (Power, F.E, emissions etc). When D.I is coupled with F.I, then the numbers are much more supportive.

I hear the bore of Coyote is significantly larger than our BOSS - approaching the 100mm mark.

AFAIK that is the case; and there's NO advantage with it in n/a form.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by JPFS1

beautiful...

Makes a change from the doom and gloom surrounding this particular type of combustion engine.

The Ford version isn't the same and does away with some of those advances including DI from what I can understand. So if JPFS1 is wrong so am I.

Top Gear watchers will get to see the blown 5.0 in action in the coming weeks as it's compared against one of the world’s best sports sedans.

I simply cannot for the life of me understand the negativity surrounding this announcement. It’s as though some on here have a personal vested interest in hoping the new V8 is a failure. Casting aspirations, insinuation and stereotypes.

All any manufacturer can do is offer up a choice and try to cover all bases.

In the last few days we essentially get confirmation that there will be a Ford V8, there will be a new V8 under the hood of the next FPV AND we have a new appearance and aesthetics to look forward (or to be scared) to/of and nothing.

We have a future yet most here are too busy dissecting the past. Forest- trees-forest.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by HSE2

Makes a change from the doom and gloom surrounding this particular type of combustion engine.

The Ford version isn't the same and does away with some of those advances including DI from what I can understand. So if JPFS1 is wrong so am I.

Top Gear watchers will get to see the blown 5.0 in action in the coming weeks as it's compared against one of the world’s best sports sedans.

I simple cannot for the life of me understand the negativity surrounding this announcement. It’s as though some on here have a personal vested interest in hoping the new V8 is a failure. Casting aspirations, insinuation and stereotypes.

All any manufacturer can do is offer up a choice and try to cover all bases.

In the last few days we essentially get confirmation that there will be a Ford V8, there will be a new V8 under the hood of the next FPV AND we have a new appearance and aesthetics to look forward (or to be scared) to/of and nothing.

We have a future yet most here are too busy dissecting the past. Forest- trees-forest.

ford are not that silly the new donk will superseed the boss..

the problem here is that its allready on such a high peddistool it will be classed as a failure, by the forum crictic.
luckly for ford they are a buying minority.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by burnz

ford are not that silly the new donk will superseed the boss..

the problem here is that its allready on such a high peddistool it will be classed as a failure, by the forum crictic.
luckly for ford they are a buying minority.

Huh?

What have you been reading?