Ford is Looking Back - XR8

[roushfenway]

I love the XR8. I've owned one and think they are a great brand, but Ford just screwed around with this one too much and lost the opportunity. Ford management marginalised the V8 Falcon with their actions over the past few years and I think it is just to late to turn that around now. It is like so much Ford Australia does, another lost opportunity.

I totally agree with this perspective. I've had three and they've all been great vehicles. But the XR8 is symptomatic of the whole systematic Ford marketing/sales/stuff-ups over the past five years at least.

I think it's best symbolised by the Falcon wagon. Treat potential buyers with contempt, a complete lack of advertising and engineering imagination, failing to upgrade the vehicle over many years, then killing off the model when sales inevitably fall over the cliff.

Try as hard as I can, I've never ever seen a Mondeo wagon on the road.

If they're moving away from the V8, the problem is they fail to highlight driving excitement anywhere else in the range. Ford spend a fortune on the WRC, but I've never seen (please correct me if I'm wrong) a mainstream Focus ad highlighting their rally involvement or Ford's rally heritage.

Anyhow, just my two-bob's worth!

[Luke Plaizier]

Originally Posted by jpd80

In any case, I seriously doubt Ford will revisit XR8, not now that the series 2 FG GS has been given its nose..

If you want and XR8, go buy an FPV GS:

image

Meh

Here's Ford trying to stack a business case up for an XR8 when one already exists under it's nose.

Just sell THAT bastard with XR8 badges on it for eff's sake, at the same price. All the manuals, parts, R&D, service training - it's all done and dusted and raring to go. I think i'd even fall for an FPV GS 'Sticker Pack' with no hockey sticks and XR8/Ford badges if they released one.

Job done.

Next problem please.

The more people get on here and mitch and boan about what an XR8 should be, just like the GTHO, the less chance we have of one rolling out. An XR8 could be out on sale tomorrow on this plan if someone just had the balls to say yes for once.


Lukeyson

[martyk54]

Originally Posted by Luke Plaizier

Meh

Here's Ford trying to stack a business case up for an XR8 when one already exists under it's nose.

Just sell THAT bastard with XR8 badges on it for eff's sake, at the same price. All the manuals, parts, R&D, service training - it's all done and dusted and raring to go. I think i'd even fall for an FPV GS 'Sticker Pack' with no hockey sticks and XR8/Ford badges if they released one.

Job done.

Next problem please.

The more people get on here and mitch and boan about what an XR8 should be, just like the GTHO, the less chance we have of one rolling out. An XR8 could be out on sale tomorrow on this plan if someone just had the balls to say yes for once.


Lukeyson

So they release the XR8 with the Coyote 315, then what? They'll have to obviously up the power of the GS or it just puts their marketing out of whack... + backlash of GS buyers and the SC 5.0 loses it's 'premium' status somewhat.
Surely they can't release a NA version of the Coyote either, as it would require some severe development to get it competing with SS and XR6T, which is where it needs to be. All of this on top of the fact that the XR8 as it was just didn't sell before, so with FG sales dropping, why would anyone think it'd sell now?

I don't share your opinion and don't think this is easy for Ford at all.

[Uncle Niceguy]

easliy done lukeyson all you'd have to do is drop the power of the XR8 model to 300kw flat (XR6T is 270kw i think) and swap interior for XR one change badge plus if JPD80 is correct in saying only 11 fg XR8's were sold there's a future collectable.....

[prydey]

if you want a fairmont ghia, you buy a G6E, so if you want a XR8, go buy a GS. its pretty simple.

if you can't afford it, thats not fords problem.

[martyk54]

Originally Posted by prydey

if you want a fairmont ghia, you buy a G6E, so if you want a XR8, go buy a GS. its pretty simple.

if you can't afford it, thats not fords problem.

Yep.. fair call. I'd say once you added a luxury pack to a potential XR8 there wouldn't be much more than 5k in it anyway.

[jpd80]

Last year FPV sold 270 GS and 265 GS Utes, that's a total of 535 cars.
Now if indeed FPV is using what was meant to be the XR8 and adding $10k/car,
then that means Ford /Prodrive are making an extra $5.3 million on that line..

Making less cars but with more profit..

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by prydey

if you want a fairmont ghia, you buy a G6E, so if you want a XR8, go buy a GS. its pretty simple.

if you can't afford it, thats not fords problem.

I agree with your first sentence.

I disagree with your second sentence.

If people can't afford a car that they would otherwise purchase, then it is indeed Ford's problem. They need all of the sales they can get.

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Last year FPV sold 270 GS and 265 GS Utes, that's a total of 535 cars.
Now if indeed FPV is using what was meant to be the XR8 and adding $10k/car,
then that means Ford /Prodrive are making an extra $5.3 million on that line..

Making less cars but with more profit..

Ford only own half of FPV (is it 51% or 49%?). I don't know their business model but in layman's terms, wouldn't that mean the same ratio that their profits are broken down to? ie Ford get 2.6 million from your example?

[Djrystofer]

Originally Posted by martyk54

So they release the XR8 with the Coyote 315, then what? They'll have to obviously up the power of the GS or it just puts their marketing out of whack... + backlash of GS buyers and the SC 5.0 loses it's 'premium' status somewhat.
Surely they can't release a NA version of the Coyote either, as it would require some severe development to get it competing with SS and XR6T, which is where it needs to be. All of this on top of the fact that the XR8 as it was just didn't sell before, so with FG sales dropping, why would anyone think it'd sell now?

I don't share your opinion and don't think this is easy for Ford at all.

Smaller supercharger?

Still has potential, just less than that of a GS.

[FPV GTHO]

Originally Posted by martyk54

So they release the XR8 with the Coyote 315, then what? They'll have to obviously up the power of the GS or it just puts their marketing out of whack... + backlash of GS buyers and the SC 5.0 loses it's 'premium' status somewhat.
Surely they can't release a NA version of the Coyote either, as it would require some severe development to get it competing with SS and XR6T, which is where it needs to be. All of this on top of the fact that the XR8 as it was just didn't sell before, so with FG sales dropping, why would anyone think it'd sell now?

I don't share your opinion and don't think this is easy for Ford at all.

Spreading engines down the range is just part of moving forward. Look at T1 TS50 losing its engine first to TE50 then XR8. B series FPV V8 migrating to FG XR8.

Putting an NA coyote in, whilst still not simple, wouldn't be that difficult. Mustangs 307kw version would make it a faster car than SS, but if you want to match XR6T then it would be a waste of time using anything other than the GS engine.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by eb2monty

Ford only own half of FPV (is it 51% or 49%?). I don't know their business model but in layman's terms, wouldn't that mean the same ratio that their profits are broken down to? ie Ford get 2.6 million from your example?

Regardless of the split, there's basically $5.3 million more in the kitty than there would be with a similar number of XR8s.
That's the important bit, more money with less actual builds, a concept that some our Forum members still have difficulty with.

Drop the price to $50K and the number of builds would have to soar to achieve that same profitability....

That's the key here, efficient use of resources.

Yes, Ford/Prodrive could do an XR8 as well as the GS but, would the XR8 cut into GS build numbers?

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Regardless of the split, there's basically $5.3 million more in the kitty than there would be with a similar number of XR8s.
That's the important bit, more money with less actual builds, a concept that some our Forum members still have difficulty with.

Drop the price to $50K and the number of builds would have to soar to achieve that same profitability....

That's the key here, efficient use of resources.

Yes, Ford/Prodrive could do an XR8 as well as the GS but, would the XR8 cut into GS build numbers?

Its a good business model, while your donor car still has enough sales volume and that were this niche thing is coming unstuck. Ford and its suppliers need to build enough cars to keep everyone busy and justify making the actual parts that make up a Falcon. Respectfully that seems something you have trouble understanding. Tooling up for FG would never have happened if Ford had thought that the volume was what it is now. Heck you would have expected the plant to close down after BF. Ford at the end of the day is not a niche sports car maker in Italy, they are a mass production business, that needs a certain volume to go down the line in what is quite an old plant to make any money. Lights still need to be switched on and workers on the line still draw the same basic pay (down times excepted), the fix costs don't go away. Your suppliers too, are only going to be interested in tooling up for cheap parts you demand if they can get the volume to recover their costs and make money. I agree there is nothing wrong with making more money per unit, if you swap an XR8 badge for a FPV/GS one, but you still need the volume too.

Constantly fine tuning your market to the degree Ford has, means you also marginalise a lot of your potential customer base. Of course those people are free to find alternative manufacturers that make a car that suit and they do. Which means if your remaining customers don't like what you are doing or move onto something else (cars being a fickle market) you are screwed because you have become highly dependent on a limited range of products and have no fall back to soften the fall.

Right now we know from those on the inside at Ford that Territory is why they are bothering to get up in the morning and report for work. If another manufacturer takes on Territory successfully or Ford is stupid enough to let another SX/SY fiasco take place (my choice of words) because of any engineering faults they fail to promptly and effectively address in the new design, then its game over. Its not like the workers can fall back on Focus production now is it?

[OZQUAD44]

Its funny, because to me a Territory is just a big Falcon wagon. Its sad to see the slow demise of Falcon based products, Fairlane, Wagon, Panel van, XR8, taxis. It all probably made good financial sense at the time, but its all a slippery slope in the wrong direction.

Hopefully the LPI and eco boost Falcons can breathe some life into fleet sales. IMO they should have thrown a diesel variant in there too. For me this is an opportunity missed, as is a N/A V8 option. Less models to choose from less platform sharing, less cost savings. Its all bad news.

[OZQUAD44]

Throwing an XR8 out there now probably would make sense in so far as it would be something different, and something new to advertise.

Does it have to go faster than an XR6T. Not nessasarly. As long as it can stay with an SS, cheaper than one, sounds good, handles well, and has some presence about it. Aussie V8 sedans are special things, they have far more soul than 90% of the white goods car manufacturers unload on us.

But Getting families (women in particular) to commit to a car like this is hard. SUV's are seen as far better family machines. My Wife loves her Territory and won't even consider the GT as a family vehicle.

In a choice between the two, she would not even hesitate to sell the GT and keep the Territory. Falcons need to have more mod cons, blue tooth, dvd palyers, ipod docks, etc to even remain in todays market.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Its a good business model, while your donor car still has enough sales volume and that were this niche thing is coming unstuck. Ford and its suppliers need to build enough cars to keep everyone busy and justify making the actual parts that make up a Falcon. Respectfully that seems something you have trouble understanding.

I have often said on this forum that Ford needs to secure sufficient fleet volume to ensure the sustainability
and since fleet sales make up around 75% of Falcons production volume then that's where Fords main focus
should be. I think you'll find that Ford's bean counters argued against the XR8 is because of the potential to
undermine FPV for the sake of small incremental gain.

[madmatty]

r. i. p XR8

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

Constantly fine tuning your market to the degree Ford has, means you also marginalise a lot of your potential customer base. Of course those people are free to find alternative manufacturers that make a car that suit and they do. Which means if your remaining customers don't like what you are doing or move onto something else (cars being a fickle market) you are screwed because you have become highly dependent on a limited range of products and have no fall back to soften the fall.

And this is where the causality loop begins with fans...
The belief that vehicles like station wagon Fairlane, Panel van ect, sales went away because
Ford somehow didn't respect buyers so they stopped buying them. well, here's the news:

The market is now full of vehicles specifically tailored to cover those needs and while
Ford could extend capital and resources to create S/W, Fairlane, XR8 P'Van ect, but that outlay
is now seen as greater than the potential income for developing those vehicles in the first place.
It is now cheaper for Ford to stick with volume models Sedan Ute and Territory than to pursue niches.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by OZQUAD44

Throwing an XR8 out there now probably would make sense in so far as it would be something different, and something new to advertise.

They already have the LPI, EB4 and diesel territory to advertise...

[martyk54]

Originally Posted by Djrystofer

Smaller supercharger?

Still has potential, just less than that of a GS.

It's all about cost. I hardly believe Ford could justify developing another version of the Coyote purely for XR8, not with its issues in the market previously. It needs a power plant in it that's as good as what's in the GS now if you ask me, that will prop up the potential XR8 / V8 market and make people think they're getting something special.

Their only way out is to put the current 315kw Coyote in XR8, then tweak GS a little to put out another 10kw or so for marketing purposes (not hard). This would seem like the most inexpensive option... that's assuming the Coyote in its current state isn't too expensive for a 40k odd XR8.

[Joe5619]

All this talk about the XR8 trully makes me laugh.. People, the GS is the bloody XR8.. If you can't afford, bad luck!!


If I was Ford/FPV, I'd swap the GS badge with an XR8 one, swap the FPV badge with a Ford one (Give FPV some kind of fee/royalty to keep them happy) & change NOthing else, include no change to price!! Everyone wins!! People without access to FPV dealers could now buy one becuase they'd be sold by Ford & not FPV.. Again, if you can't afford the price tag, bad luck!!

[banarcus]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

All this talk about the XR8 trully makes me laugh.. People, the GS is the bloody XR8.. If you can't afford, bad luck!!

Unfortunately, this was the problem for us. It was out of our price range and we (V8 lovers) went for the other brand.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by banarcus

Unfortunately, this was the problem for us. It was out of our price range and we (V8 lovers) went for the other brand.

And that is fine.. Ford can't be everything to everyone.

You want a cheaper V8, buy a Holden
You want a nicer V8, buy a Ford

Both a very nice cars, just catering to different segments. Ford & Holden don’t always need to fight of the over same market segments with Commodore & Falcon. It is good they are in different segments.

[My poor XF]

Hell just drop the GS from FPV and rebadge as suggested. Drop price by 5k.
There's the xr8

Or buy a GS and rebadge.

[Chopped]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

..............Both a very nice cars, just catering to different segments. Ford & Holden don’t always need to fight of the over same market segments with Commodore & Falcon. It is good they are in different segments.

But they do fight each other and Holden is winning. They are selling more V8s in the budget end (SS) and at the top end (GTS).

Ford "may" be making a better profit on each V8 but they are slowly killing the V8 falcon (for a second time!) with dwindling build numbers.

I admit, in reality, that any business case involving a V8 is a lost cause in todays market.

I think Ford Aus's real focus (pun intended) at the moment is on the imports, Mondeo, Focus & Fiesta.

[aussie muscle]

I think ford are purposely killing the Falcon, weaning us off it for a global car.

Originally Posted by wildrider

I'd love too see it return but cant see it happening. I wish they'd have a V8 falcon trayback ute again!!!

pretty easy when they have separate tray.



i'm at a crossroads at the moment. what to replace my BFXR8 ute.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Chopped

Ford "may" be making a better profit on each V8 but they are slowly killing the V8 falcon (for a second time!) with dwindling build numbers.

from what i've heard, GS is selling in better numbers than FG XR8 was.

[Chopped]

Originally Posted by prydey

from what i've heard, GS is selling in better numbers than FG XR8 was.

535 cars in 12 months (including the ute) is hardly worth bragging about though. Infact it is only a sign of how rare a new Falcon V8 is these days.

I wonder what the FG XR8 numbers would have been if it had the same engine but sat below the $50 000 mark ?

As I said though, I think it is a lost cause.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Chopped

535 cars in 12 months (including the ute) is hardly worth bragging about though. Infact it is only a sign of how rare a new Falcon V8 is these days.

I wonder what the FG XR8 numbers would have been if it had the same engine but sat below the $50 000 mark ?

As I said though, I think it is a lost cause.

you need to read back a few posts and see what jpd80 has to say. its seems some people only look at sales numbers.

shaving $5k off each car would mean they would have to sell a lot more to make the same profit. is it worth it, if the extra sales aren't guaranteed?

[Chopped]

Originally Posted by prydey

...... its seems some people only look at sales numbers.

Like Ford american bean counters (the decision makers).