How To Annoy a Hybrid Driver - Page 3

Bucket · 03-04-2007, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr

Hydrogen powered cars can solve 2 problems in one go. It will ease carbon emissions (Depending on what is used to generate the electricity to get the hydrogen)

But have you seen the process that Hydrogen has to go throught to become a fuel? Chemically, I have heard its not the safest process (corrosive) But neither are controlled explosions in a Petrol car I suppose :-P
Perth have a Hydrogen Powered Bus going arround the city...Its one of a kind in Australia and its only by-product is steam. Apparently, it needs its own specialty mechanics etc and requires a lot of Maintenance to keep running...

Tiapan · 03-04-2007, 06:14 PM

well i have just learned from the 2007 dog&lemon guide that if we all rode horses the polar ice caps would have probaly already melted by now!

horses produced alot more harmful gasses then cars ever will, on the streets of new york it was 'not possible' to have a conversation due to the clatter of steel horse shoes and iron cart wheels.
into each horses mouths annualy went hay and oats from about five acres of agricultal land, out the back came a ton of pooh annually, this pooh mixed with hundreds of litres of horse wee and covered the streets of cities with green, putrid sludge,

in winter this sludge mixed with mud and spattered onto the clothes of passers by, in summer the sludge became a smelly dust, billowing into clouds and covering the clothes and filled the eyes and lungs of city dwellers. this cocktail of bacteria caused eye infections and produced fatal diseases. the cocktail of sludge invited thouands of flies which only made the spread of disease worse. 15.000 dead horses a year were being hauled off the streets of new york.

this isnt much to do with prius but it good to know man has been dealing with these pollution dramas long before the car, so dont stress too much

Piotr · 03-04-2007, 06:17 PM

There are several ways to produce hydrogen. You can add acids to metals, Electrolysis water or via steam reforming of natural gas.

The USA already produced 9Million tons of hydrogen per year via steam reforming. Electrolysis is most probably the way forward though

peedee · 03-04-2007, 10:02 PM

I know the US produces lots of gas annually but i thought it was mostly carbon dioxide and methane from the fact that they are still walking and talking and emitting lots of methane from the rectal passage ways much like the horses in Taipan's post

GXL078 · 03-04-2007, 10:42 PM

Why even acknowledge them. Your Val will outlast all the hybrids in the world and you can work on it yourself. If we run out of perol there's plenty of LPG in the ground, or you could get hydrogen from water and use that.

chevypower · 03-04-2007, 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry_v

toyota recognise that the prius is not the future. it is just something that they can apply NOW to production cars. GM went the other way with hydrogen tech, but the world just isnt ready for it yet so they're stuck with a technology that is not yet ready for production. so now GM and toyota have swapped billions of dollars worth of research so that GM has hybrid technology NOW and toyota will have hydrogen ready for TOMMOROW.

chevypower you need to do some research or start thinking!

the parallel layout is the most effient way..

if im cruising at 60kmph on a straight stretch of highway that is when my ICE is at its most fuel efficient. therefore it is the ICE that you want to use at this time. proposing that you use the electric motor that is running from power generated by the ICE is creating another unneccesary step with efficiency loses.

the electric motor does have enough power to run the car exclusively, and you an achieve this by a button on the dash. when the batterys run low it will automatically swich back into normal mode.

diesel could work, but the petrol engine has been refined for maximum economy anyway and is smoother (essential on an engine that cuts in and out). if anyones interested enough to read up, the petrol engine uses the atkinson cycle in part to achieve its economy.

You are right when you are talking about a Prius - the elec motor in it, wouldnt do the job on it's own, which is a gutless elec motor to assist a less-gutless ICE... But the non-parallel layout is definately better, thats how locomotives and diesel submarines work. This Mini has a similar size ICE to the Prius, but because it's non-parallel, you can get your 640HP and 3000Nmwithout using fuel to push the car, but to use it to power the elec motors...Result: http://www.gizmag.com/go/6104/
fuel economy better than a Prius, torque better than a Kenworth, power better than a Ferrari (literally on all of those)

chevypower · 04-04-2007, 12:12 AM

Ahh sorry Barry, I was wrong.... The ICE in the Non-Parallel layout Hybrid Mini is 250cc!!!!
So non-parallel hybrid 250cc gets 3.5L per 100km, 0-100 in 3.7 seconds, 640HP and 3000Nm

Toyota Prius 1.5L ICE "Parallel" layout hybrid 5L per 100km, much much much much less power than the Mini..... sorry, did you say I need to do some research Barry? And like i said, if that ICE in the Mini was diesel, and you run it on Bio-diesel fuel, it would be even better!

Tiapan · 04-04-2007, 12:38 AM

ahh chevy power..your last post was as off track as mine, just face it man, the prius is the end of the human race as we know it. expect three eyed fish and more people looking like tasmainians

chevypower · 04-04-2007, 12:51 AM

No its all good Tiapan, believe it or not i did understand your last post... All those centuries passing before industry, where there were horses and no cars... totally shocking!....the Moral of the story, i take it, was next time we see an F250 V10 or Dodge Ram hauling a 50 foot gooseneck horsefloat.... tell the driver to stop causing so much pollution and get rid of his horses!!! :-)

**DJM83** · 04-04-2007, 04:48 PM

That is gold mate

Barry_v · 04-04-2007, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

You are right when you are talking about a Prius - the elec motor in it, wouldnt do the job on it's own, which is a gutless elec motor to assist a less-gutless ICE... But the non-parallel layout is definately better, thats how locomotives and diesel submarines work. This Mini has a similar size ICE to the Prius, but because it's non-parallel, you can get your 640HP and 3000Nmwithout using fuel to push the car, but to use it to power the elec motors...Result: http://www.gizmag.com/go/6104/
fuel economy better than a Prius, torque better than a Kenworth, power better than a Ferrari (literally on all of those)

so I can buy one of these for $37,500 down at my local bmw dealer and enjoy a 3 year / 100,000 KM warranty?

its performance has little to do with its non-parallel layout, but due to the fact it has FOUR MOTORS! and the article says that they had trouble fitting it all in... "limited space to integrate the substantial component set required for a top performance electric vehicle" sounds like its got a nicely sized battery in the boot and not much room for anything else.

they can use series on a locomotive or submarine because they dont mind if they're a bit bulky!

ps
did anyone else find it disturbing that they removed the brakes all together? so if you lose battery voltage you have no brakes?

chevypower · 04-04-2007, 09:14 PM

Barry, do you always modify your arguement when you get proven wrong? The fact the Mini non-parallel hybrid isnt produced by BMW, and available from a showroom and was converted by a 3rd party company, and it's stopping power is irrelevant, to the point that NON-PARALLEL hybrids are so much better, and car companies SHOULD be producing them! I think Re-gen braking is a good thing too... WHAT IF your brakes dont work... then you wont stop at all!!! You'd be better off sticking to proving why parallel is so much better... What are you going to say next? You don't like the colour of the Mini?

Barry_v · 04-04-2007, 09:21 PM

Quote:

the economy can be better if the electric motors are powered by the ICE in a non-parallel layout

combustion engine->wheels
is more efficient than
combustion engine->generator->battery->Electric motor(s)

so in what way is a series circuit more efficient? I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND! how can you argue otherwise, its common sense.

Barry_v · 04-04-2007, 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

Barry, do you always modify your arguement when you get proven wrong? The fact the Mini non-parallel hybrid isnt produced by BMW, and available from a showroom and was converted by a 3rd party company, and it's stopping power is irrelevant, to the point that NON-PARALLEL hybrids are so much better, and car companies SHOULD be producing them! I think Re-gen braking is a good thing too... WHAT IF your brakes dont work... then you wont stop at all!!! You'd be better off sticking to proving why parallel is so much better... What are you going to say next? You don't like the colour of the Mini?

temper, temper

you brought the mini into it to try and prove that series was better. i was just pointing out that its not a fair comparison.

the prius has re-gen braking as well, it just retains the original braking system as well, which I think is more sensible. I just thought it was interesting that they removed them, it wasnt part of any arguement.

Sourbastard · 04-04-2007, 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barry_v

combustion engine->wheels
is more efficient than
combustion engine->generator->battery->Electric motor(s)

so in what way is a series circuit more efficient? I JUST DONT UNDERSTAND! how can you argue otherwise, its common sense.

Obviously you dont understand barry.

combustion engine->generator->battery->Electric motor(s) + 30 Greenpeace activists pushing your car down the M1

is more efficient than

combustion engine->wheels

chevypower · 04-04-2007, 10:10 PM

Barry, I can argue it, because the proof is in the pudding! I use real life examples.

Granted there is no non-parallel hybrid car ON THE MARKET, but I did give the examples of the locomotives, submarines (although a parallel system wouldnt work at all on a submarine as it needs to go under water), and the Mini

versus the hybrid cars currently available to us with their respective power outputs eg Honda, Toyota/Lexus

I strongly believe non-parallel will be the next big thing in hybrid cars. I don't believe they will have the motors at the wheels as per the Mini, but I believe they will do it through a transmission. A loss of mechanical efficiency, but a gain in utilizing the motor's high torque characteristics through changability in torque ratios via the transmission.

Your argument of "Common sense" the arguement used in "The Castle" please realize, this is not an intelligent one.

There are a couple of reasons I can think of which explain why I think Non-parallel is more efficient.

If parallel was more efficient, then you could say as you rely more on the ICE than the electric motor (because your argument is that the ICE should be used for propulsion) efficiency is gained. If that were true, why have the electric motor at all?
Think of it on a scale. As propulsion is relied more on the electric motor and less on the ICE, efficiency is gained. 100% Electric at one extreme, and 100% ICE at the other. Non-Parallel relies on the electric motor, parallel relies on both but as increase in relying on the ICE, efficiency is lost (not gained)

What YOU are saying is that 100% ICE is NOT the most efficient. But if it's assisted by electric in propulsion, it is the MOST efficient. If you rely on the ICE even less, and focus mainly on the electric (as the efficiency increased last time using this forumla), this time, you have overstepped your mark, and suddenly the reverse happened, and it efficiency was lost.

It is VERY clear, that the non-parallel system is much more efficient than parallel, and is evident in the examples as previously mentioned (Mini vs Prius etc) and would be even more so with a diesel ICE as the diesel could power the generator with much less effort (higher compression, slower fuel burn, and increased torque). This is why i said right from the beginning a non-parallel diesel-electric hybrid would be a good way to go!

Barry_v · 04-04-2007, 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

If that were true, why have the electric motor at all?

for use in acceleration and low speed, just as it is used in the prius. the times when the ICE is the least efficient.

chevypower · 04-04-2007, 10:51 PM

You have just proven my point! It's best to keep the ICE at maximum effieciency when it's needed to generate power. With non-parallel, it's even better because you can ALWAYS keep the ICE "cruising" (maximum efficiency) to charge the batteries and power the elec motor - or have the ICE totally shut down and run off the batteries, no matter how hard you are driving! You can't do that with the parallel set up!.

Piotr · 04-04-2007, 11:23 PM

I though the Prius was non-parallel(The electric and petrol engine can run independant of each other) with the hybrid civic was a parallel design(The petrol motor runs all the time with assistance from the electric motor at certain times).

chevypower · 04-04-2007, 11:49 PM

The Prius is parallel because the ICE connects through the transmission to the wheels (the elec motor assists it though) The elec motor can run the car independentaly, but the ICE cannot run without being engaged to the driveline, propelling the car and causing variances in the revs. If that makes sense.

Piotr · 05-04-2007, 12:18 AM

I see. Alot of new hybrid and electric vehicle concepts now have an individual motor for each wheel. Seems to be some good progress in the area.

new2ford · 05-04-2007, 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by peedee

:
Was last week down from the central coast to northern sydney suburbs.
Stopped at a set of lights (had taken my real toy for a run) (no not a ford but a V8 valiant sedan with 3" exhaust and all the rumble of a twin system),
any way in the right hand lane pull up a Pirius (i think) windows wound down to save on aircon using up electricity, that was being pumped through stereo, young guys that would normally drive ricers but mummy and daddy probarbly think they are doing the right thing for the enviroment.

:
Passenger leans out of window and says something along the lines of earth destroyer and planet rapist.

In America the wags call them the "Pious" because that's what a lot of their owners are like.

peedee · 05-04-2007, 07:18 PM

This is the whole point of the original post was to get some discussion going but this is the attitude of a number of eco friendly drivers that I have seen

In America the wags call them the "Pious" because that's what a lot of their owners are like

FalconXR6 · 05-04-2007, 07:36 PM

Don't forget, boys and girls, that consumption means exactly ZERO!!! It's the amount of killometres you travel that actually means something.

A prius that travels 50,000km per year is doing the environment more harm than a gas guzzling, enviro hating V8 that does 5,000km per year

Get over it, I say.

As for the point of the original post, anyone who forces their opinion on others by verbally abusing them is a flat out ********. Wether your talking religion, values, or vehicle choice. Abusing a person for their choice in life is wrong.

You are, however, more than welcome to discuss issues rationally and validate (or "sell") your point, should both parties be interested to do so in the first place.

AusM · 10-04-2007, 01:22 PM

Anyone catch South Park last night? It focussed on all the 'smug' caused by some hybrid car owners... funny!

DoreSlamR · 10-04-2007, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFdesign

Anyone catch South Park last night? It focussed on all the 'smug' caused by some hybrid car owners... funny!

yeah i saw that, bloody hilarious!

ltd · 10-04-2007, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PFdesign

Anyone catch South Park last night? It focussed on all the 'smug' caused by some hybrid car owners... funny!

Yeah I saw it, that bit about the owners all being smug on hybrids and smelling their own flatulence sort of sums up the original post to this thread doesn't it?
Sniff, Sniff, Sniff.