Hsv Gts-r 2008

[futura]

I wonder how many stripes FPV need to get to 380kw

[billsta]

Originally Posted by ea90gl

The typhoon is a great car with a very torquey turb 6 but the only reason it leaves the GT in its tracks is not because of the 20-30 more NM or torque but the 150-200KG lighter body. You can never underestimate the effect that excessive weight has on a cars performance. Then you have HSV with bigger engines and lighter cars - ofcourse they're gonna be quicker, there'd be something seriously wrong if they werent.

You need to be reminded where the Phoon starts making peak torque at 2000rpm compared to the GT and HSV. That makes a world of difference.....

[mcnews]

Originally Posted by ea90gl

The typhoon is a great car with a very torquey turb 6 but the only reason it leaves the GT in its tracks is not because of the 20-30 more NM or torque but the 150-200KG lighter body.

Really in what fairyland scales is that on :->

[Charliewool]

Originally Posted by mcnews

Really in what fairyland scales is that on :->

Exactly!!!..... I think the actual figure is 81 or 82 kgs!

[mcnews]

On my Tornado rego papers the tare is listed as 1783.

Anyone got the rego papers of a GT and Typhoon handy?

[FordFella]

Originally Posted by ea90gl

im sure ford, and most other companies, wouldnt go release different motors with big HP figures or up the power on thier engines in huge amounts in short spans of time because what would they do when that gets old? You cant jump from one thing to another huge step in short weeks or months (years is considered short by any car company), you do it in small steps. that way it preserves the image of each car and motor and gives them plenty of time to adjust or add/subtract different components eg type of diff or gearbox etc etc to suit the car and motor. it also adds excitement/suspense for the newer model or upgrade so it can get more sales. As they say Rome wasnt built in a day. As for the current crop out there as a few have mentioned its not just KW figures, the weight is a huge factor when it comes to performance. If the GT's werent so plump they could blow the doors off a typhoon or HSV. The typhoon is a great car with a very torquey turb 6 but the only reason it leaves the GT in its tracks is not because of the 20-30 more NM or torque but the 150-200KG lighter body. You can never underestimate the effect that excessive weight has on a cars performance. Then you have HSV with bigger engines and lighter cars - ofcourse they're gonna be quicker, there'd be something seriously wrong if they werent.

Manufacturers outside of Australia tend to pile on about 50kw of power after each model - and this does not change for 5-6 years, as it preserves the resale of the car. FPV have been doing this (albeit with smaller power upgrades), which is why the GT is still 290, and why FPV resale tends to be better than HSV, contrary to the rest of the range.
From memory the Typhoon is only about 50 kgs lighter than the GT, and the main reason that it is faster is because of the delivery of the torque (2000-4500rpm). Also, HSVs aren't lighter than FPVs anymore - same chubby weight due to the multi-link IRS.
Yes, weight does have an important role, but since Ford and Holden are using the same formula for large cars it is not as relevant. However, weight distribution is very important, and I believe this is one reason that the GT is comparatively slow compared to other cars (that and the small powerband). Does anyone know what the GT's weight distribution actually is?

EDIT: unfortunately everyone decided to correct Ea90GL when I was typing lol

[irlewy86]

I wonder if any FPV or HSV buyers take the car for a test drive at the track before they buy. Because obviously when buying a new car its critical to know how it will perform on a stretch of road it will hardly see.

[3vXT]

Originally Posted by FordFella

Manufacturers outside of Australia tend to pile on about 50kw of power after each model...
...FPV have been doing this (albeit with smaller power upgrades), which is why the GT is still 290, and why FPV resale tends to be better than HSV

I know this is getting off topic but i have to ask, are you saying that the current (BF2) GT and F6 are leaving the factory with more power than the earlier cars?

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by ken2903

What exactly have FPV done to the V8 (other than the recent 12kw) and 6cly engines since the GT and F6 were launched?

BAMk2 GT had more than 290kW that Mk1 had... thats a fact.

BF GT had to meet Euro 3, so power stayed the same but engine became cleaner... in other words, if it wasn't for Euro 3, the cost of meeting said emissions would've been used to increase power again... but I bet would've still had the same badge.

The idea is, FPV/Ford have decided to play the game the way the want to play and not allow the opposition to dictate the moves, like 5-10kW annual HSV/Holden increase... I also believe this devalues the previous model.

Here's your answer \/\/\/\/

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Id say FPV have done a fair bit with both the 6 and 8 over the past few years, they just haven't changed the badge to keep the "badge braggers" happy....

When Orion GT is released it'll be quoted to have 3xxkW but I bet you anything FPV will be underquoting its figure.




Now, when this 380gigawatt HSV is released, FPV will easily match and bash and crap over it with Orion F6 (again, will be quoted to have about 300kW, but, who knows what it'll actually have?)

[3vXT]

I thought FPV were having problems selling cars?
Your saying they are under quoting power figures, to help resale and 'play the game the way they want to' ?
I'm sorry but that sounds like the biggest load of crap i have ever heard. How much power is a BF2 GT making?

[FordFella]

Originally Posted by ken2903

I know this is getting off topic but i have to ask, are you saying that the current (BF2) GT and F6 are leaving the factory with more power than the earlier cars?

No sorry - I was referring that rather than doing an upgrade every year or two, FPV only does major upgrades every few years. It should have been "FPV will be doing this with Orion".

Then again, the cars have been getting faster in reviews and on the drags....

[Falc'man]

These are facts. Power increases, but badge figure stays the same.
They had a top year sales wise in 06. Sales for this year are expected to be lower due to it being an "old" model and not lack of power. If its your opinion that power increases don't affect the previous model then good luck to ya', and I'm glad they've kept quoting the same number.

Originally Posted by ken2903

How much power is a BF2 GT making?

I don't know, ask someone who's dyno'ed one.

[T3ts50]

Originally Posted by ken2903

I thought FPV were having problems selling cars?

Dont know about that, apparently they just sold 500 cars in 2 days.

[freaky]

i wonder how many people complaining about FPV actually own one have ever driven one.

My stock F6 scares me, it has plenty of grunt for the road, how much more do we need. For $60k odd, its awesome performance from the factory.

So what if HSV brings out a car that has 380kw for $125k. good on them, for that price i'd rather have a GT and F6 parked next to each other in the driveway.

[3vXT]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

These are facts. Power increases, but badge figure stays the same.
They had a top year sales wise in 06. Sales for this year are expected to be lower due to it being an "old" model and not lack of power. If its your opinion that power increases don't affect the previous model then good luck to ya', and I'm glad they've kept quoting the same number.
I don't know, ask someone who's dyno'ed one.

What makes them facts? care to post or pm me a link to something more substantial than you calling it a fact?

I can understand sales being a bit down with the VE being out but sometimes, people on here talk about it as if ford and fpv are almost dead.

Its my opinion that power increases DO affect previous model sales, doesn't anyone read my posts on here?

EDIT: As for the GTS-R, if it does eventuate and is a limited number of cars, i'm sure people will buy them regardless of how much power it will make or how much it costs.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by ken2903

What makes them facts? care to post or pm me a link to something more substantial than you calling it a fact?

Just spend a bit of time in the performance section, you'll find the BA mk2 is usually pulling more than 240rwkw on the dyno... stock! Which translates to having more than 290kW, way more. BF GT's never pulled the same numbers on the dyno but still maintained the quoted 290kW.
Here's one example of a forum members BA mk2.
http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?t=11190854

Originally Posted by ken2903

I can understand sales being a bit down with the VE being out but sometimes, people on here talk about it as if ford and fpv are almost dead.

People like to winge and whine.

Originally Posted by ken2903

Its my opinion that power increases DO affect previous model sales, doesn't anyone read my posts on here?

Yes, thats what I thought you meant when you posted this \/\/\/

Originally Posted by ken2903

I'm sorry but that sounds like the biggest load of crap i have ever heard.

Or maybe you never read my post correctly?

[3vXT]

Falc'man, i think you've posted the wrong link.
From what i just read everyone with higher than normal readouts are talking about cars with mods, the guy that started the thread states in the first post that he has a G&D intake and Herrod cat back.

When the VE HSV's were released, Ford/FPV had to know their sales would slump a little.
If their cars were making more power, why not market it? It would have been the perfect time to publicly bump the power figures up. Resale values, while important to owners etc... cant carry that much weight, certainly not to the extent that FPV would lose sales just to protect it.
And regarding resale values, how long did the BA FPV run go for. a couple of years? No one would be crying about a 5 or 10kw increase in 2 or 3 years. Certainly not enough to make FPV sacrifice new vehicle sales.

I think the few, freak, randomly high dyno readings from the newer cars are just that, random. Perhaps they had generous dynos, or maybe the 6 speed manual drivetrain suffers less power loss than the earlier auto and 5 speed boxes.

[flappist]

A few points:

My 03/2003 BA Mk1 GT-P was over 240 rwkw (247.3) as was almost all of the other GTs, GT-Ps and Pursuits dynoed in that period.

There seems to be a fixation on "If it is the most powerful it will sell despite the price". This has been historically far from accurate.

e.g.
Holden
2002: GTS 300kw, R8 260kw (15% more)..... GTS was reduced to special order only due to slow sales.

Ford
1999: XR8 185kw, TS50 220kw (20% more)..... TS50 sold bugger all
2002: XR8 220kw, TS50 250kw (15% more)..... TS50 also sold slowly

As far as special limited release:

Coupe4 or more recently SV6000 or Coupe Signature.....ever actually seen one?

Marketing is difficult, get it wrong and you can lose zillions in an instant.

20% more than 307 is 368 so this alleged HSV Supercar is not "way out in front" relativistically.

Still, time will tell. It will be released or not, it will sell or not and FPV will care or not and THERE IS NOTHING THAT ANYONE ON THIS FORUM CAN DO ABOUT IT.

[HSE2]

Originally Posted by flappist

Ok, well in that case, I would put forward the point that FPV really did not have to do anything.

If it ain't broke don't fix it just for the sake of a minority.

People need to have a good look at an article written by Dave Morley. His consistency in the way he approaches car reviews is a breath of fresh air. On this occasion he has incensed the LS1 population but his comments are correct. Furthermore those comments apply to the V8 range from FPV and have done for close to 6 years.
We have arrived at the point where the V8 range is no longer considered relevant in the current market, a hole so deep that under normal circumstances the management would have been sacked. Oh hang on, they were. Thank god for Brian.



The product that didn't need fixing has a stewardship that is barely recognisable. That's an indication that something did definitely need fixing.

Poor suspension control and ordinary performance numbers especially in the rev range most consider to be important have been blight on the Boss engine vehicles. A product that carries the name "GT" deserves better.

In conclusion I quote

"And HSV will soon tell you that charging a premium for a performance car that's actually down on performance compared with its stalemates is always going to be a tough row to hoe."

On topic

Well done to HSV if this is the product that comes to market. As I understand it, fitting the LS7 engine in an Australian product is no small feat. The easy way out would have been the LS3. In years gone by HSV's engineering content was somewhat of a joke. The tables have turned. Tickford vehicle engineering should have been our legacy.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by ken2903

Falc'man, i think you've posted the wrong link.
From what i just read everyone with higher than normal readouts are talking about cars with mods, the guy that started the thread states in the first post that he has a G&D intake and Herrod cat back.

Yeah my bad.

[Bent8]

why dont you compare mercs and bmw engines to your ford engine?? huh?? its not just pathetic as you think, the numbers speak for themselves, and ford has a lot of work to do if they are to release a product to compete with the 7.0L HSV, and i dont think hsv cares about backyard jobs with 8psi blowers as that is not the market they are competing in.

Actually my BOSS260 (modded) makes the same 60kW/L as an AMG E63 so no complaints there.

But what if we compare the 5.0L Cammer with the LS7...both of which can be considered tuned motors from the factory.

Ford 5.0L DOHC Cammer 313kW@6700/533Nm@4000rpm or 63kW/L
GM 7.0L Pushrod LS7 378kW@6500/637Nm@4800rpm or 54kW/L

That tells me GM just don't bother tuning their motors but rely on cubes for power. I'll guarantee you if Ford made a 7.0L Big Block today, it would have a LOT more than 510bhp.

GM have basically taken the original small block from 1955 and tried to turn it into a big block engine…they have reached the limit with 7008cc and the pistons have been shortened to fit.

If GM want to continue competing they'll have to dump their pushrod engines and start using DOHC like everyone else. But then they'll have to spend money on designing/tuning their motors to keep up

You could mod the LS7's for more power but I'd be more worried about those cylinder bore liners sitting so close together that they touch!!

And when comparing the 7.0L HSV to a supercharged GT (which by the way would be a lot cheaper even with the blower), I'll take the latter just for that awesome supercharger whine and that unmistakable bellow that can only come from the BOSS!!...which @ 8psi would easily make 540bhp and a heap more torque than the LS7.

I think I may be getting a bit off topic...again.

[MITCHAY]

Fook me 380kw is a lot of power. At what power level will it end?

[Bucknaked]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Fook me 380kw is a lot of power. At what power level will it end?

At $125,000 for 380kw's, for that cash you could buy 2 GT's and have 580 kw's in your garage.

[Green X]

Originally Posted by TUF240

i dont think this power war will ever stop....we will end up one day with stock xr8s and ss doing 10sec 1/4 miles straight outta the factory.....lol...400kws will be childs play...ha ha....

yeah and people will still be complaining about Power and 1/4 mile times.

How many people who cry about power and 1/4 mile times constantly own any of the cars they are complaining about or have the cash to go and by one, very few i suspect.

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by Bucknaked

At $125,000 for 380kw's, for that cash you could buy 2 GT's and have 580 kw's in your garage.

I'm sure that for those that would purchase such a vehicle, $125k is play money. :

Wish I could consider $125k play money though :(

[merlin]

How is power and times not important? These are performance cars, and as such it is their number one selling point! I'm not sure how anyone can deny this. Out of the 5 or 6 various performance cars I've owned, I've always read reviews about what numbers it would run to help make my decision - this is just my opinion of course.

Personally I put more emphasis on times than power (what is the point of power if it weighs 2 tonnes IMO) BUT for these types of cars (i.e. modern day muscle) I can see how power and cubes are big selling points.

[Xitdxr]

Originally Posted by Bucknaked

At $125,000 for 380kw's, for that cash you could buy 2 GT's and have 580 kw's in your garage.

For that price you could buy a 335i coupe, which will probably ride and handle a lot better. Maybe slightly slower in a straight line, but not by much. The sucker also retrieves 10L/100kms and also looks better.

my 2c

[merlin]

Originally Posted by Xitdxr

For that price you could buy a 335i coupe, which will probably ride and handle a lot better. Maybe slightly slower in a straight line, but not by much. The sucker also retrieves 10L/100kms and also looks better.

my 2c

You'd even get $20K change, RRP on a 335i is $104K I believe - its what I would buy for that much moolah.

STill a 7L V8 is pretty unique at that price point.

[FORD3V]

Originally Posted by Bucknaked

At $125,000 for 380kw's, for that cash you could buy 2 GT's and have 580 kw's in your garage.

Or four second hand XR8's and have 1040kw's in your garage...........

[irlewy86]

Or 125 XF's and have 12,125kw in your back paddock