Vfacts March 2024

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by kypez

Hasn't been the greatest start to the F150 sales locally with the recalls and having the model superseded before launch.

Sent from my Pixel 8 using Tapatalk

I’m betting that some will still be going on and on even up to August…
Hopefully more than 1,000 delivered by then but still discussing Ford’s bad start….

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by burnz

How many carbon credits does ford get? Mach E,,
So they can sell more rangers, without penalty? ( See answer 1)


could the mack E be a necessary evil for ford (see answer 2)

LOL…Ranger & Everest is the hill Ford Australia will die on and if they are ever stopped,
Ford will probably pull out of Australia completely, rather than compete with anything else.

1. Not enough to matter

2. Ford stopped building all Mach E last month at Cuautitlan
we are way down the peck order, UK will get RHD Mach Es before we do.
I doubt that Ford gives a flying’ F… about emissions beyond the Ranger PHEV
that’s already developed and ready to go whenever required…

Off topic,
It never ceases to amaze me how much money people will pay for dual cab Rangers and Everest
Back in Falcon Days, it was hard to get more than a handful of buyers to pay those prices for FPVs

So,
Just imagine if Ford AUS had developed single and dual cab Territory Utes by using Falcon Ute half chassis.
I bet that more than one engineer mentioned it to the brass but yeah, T6 was developed with Australia in mind…

[anobserver]

Originally Posted by jpd80

LOL...
Just imagine if Ford AUS had developed single and dual cab Territory Utes by using Falcon Ute half chassis.…

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Off topic,
It never ceases to amaze me how much money people will pay for dual cab Rangers and Everest
Back in Falcon Days, it was hard to get more than a handful of buyers to pay those prices for FPVs

So,
Just imagine if Ford AUS had developed single and dual cab Territory Utes by using Falcon Ute half chassis.
I bet that more than one engineer mentioned it to the brass but yeah, T6 was developed with Australia in mind…

They don't all actually use them to go off road, do they?

It will always stagger me that off roading seems to be the main "car enthusiast" activity here in Australia these days. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but it seems like the young generation that wants to have a fun to drive car for the streets has died out.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what "it" was...

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

They don't all actually use them to go off road, do they?

It will always stagger me that off roading seems to be the main "car enthusiast" activity here in Australia these days. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but it seems like the young generation that wants to have a fun to drive car for the streets has died out.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what "it" was...

I dont get caught up in VFacts rubbish.
But i totally agree, im 40. Me and my mates had 80's falcons, then 90s falcons and some kept on going (I diverted to euros for a little after, but came back)
But now the streets are full of p plate hilux's/tritons/navaras and the like. Its a totally different environment these days.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

They don't all actually use them to go off road, do they?

It will always stagger me that off roading seems to be the main "car enthusiast" activity here in Australia these days. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but it seems like the young generation that wants to have a fun to drive car for the streets has died out.

I used to be with it, but then they changed what "it" was...

Originally Posted by DJM83

I dont get caught up in VFacts rubbish.
But i totally agree, im 40. Me and my mates had 80's falcons, then 90s falcons and some kept on going (I diverted to euros for a little after, but came back)
But now the streets are full of p plate hilux's/tritons/navaras and the like. Its a totally different environment these days.

Two things...

1, the transition away from 'street' cars by the younger generations is a good thing. While there is still an element that do stupid things on the road, street racing and traffic light drags etc seem to be a lot less than when I was growing up. As a parent now of driving age kids, that for me is a big positive. I'd much rather kids be in to the off road scene than the things we used to do on the road.

2, referring to utes etc as 'off road' vehicles is also just a generation thing. Pigeon-holing things in to specific categories is old school. Times have changed. These vehicles, while loathed by some, are extremely versatile. Much more than the traditional cars we grew up with.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by prydey

Two things...

1, the transition away from 'street' cars by the younger generations is a good thing. While there is still an element that do stupid things on the road, street racing and traffic light drags etc seem to be a lot less than when I was growing up. As a parent now of driving age kids, that for me is a big positive. I'd much rather kids be in to the off road scene than the things we used to do on the road.

2, referring to utes etc as 'off road' vehicles is also just a generation thing. Pigeon-holing things in to specific categories is old school. Times have changed. These vehicles, while loathed by some, are extremely versatile. Much more than the traditional cars we grew up with.

Totally valid points (Im not a parent but i see what you mean) But ive seen plenty of 4x4 p platers sideways in places they shouldnt be/racing their mates and all that. In fairness they are probably less powerful than some 90s falcons but 80s falcons probably not.
My comment wasnt a criticism of what p platers are doing now, more an observation compared what i grew up with and possibly p platers a few years after me also.

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by DJM83

Totally valid points (Im not a parent but i see what you mean) But ive seen plenty of 4x4 p platers sideways in places they shouldnt be/racing their mates and all that. In fairness they are probably less powerful than some 90s falcons but 80s falcons probably not.
My comment wasnt a criticism of what p platers are doing now, more an observation compared what i grew up with and possibly p platers a few years after me also.

And not only that, but some of the p-platers are still pushing the limits, just not on the roads so much. There's a lot that are now getting themselves into trouble off road: their vehicle is more capable than their skills on the off road tracks. As a parent, I was just as worried about the well-being of my daughter when she was out with mates, off roading, as I would have been if she was cruising around the streets with them.

Sadly, I'm still hearing about a reasonable number of p-platers being seriously injured, or killed, in the 4x4 era.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by DJM83

I dont get caught up in VFacts rubbish.
But i totally agree, im 40. Me and my mates had 80's falcons, then 90s falcons and some kept on going (I diverted to euros for a little after, but came back)
But now the streets are full of p plate hilux's/tritons/navaras and the like. Its a totally different environment these days.

The change in trend towards lifted four wheel drives and dual cabs is interesting.

I never saw the appeal in a lowered Falcon or Commodore, but that was always the done thing. Late model Falcodore with P-plates, slammed into the weeds, big wheels, huge subwoofer on the parcel shelf, noisy exhaust. The driver then had to run the gauntlet trying to get away with a car that was too loud and too low.

Now, it's ancient Nissan Patrol's and an assortment of dual cabs with noisy mud plugger tyres, lift kits, snorkels, roof racks permanently stacked with offroad gear, diesel blow off valves. And yet, that sort of thing doesn't seem to raise the attention of the law.

Going by what I have seen, a lowered Falcodore with superior brakes and tyres would be safer than a lifted dual cab on mud tyres and a huge amount of weight strapped to the roof. It seems to be the done thing for P-platers to drive around corners attempting to lift the inside wheels off the deck, one nearly rolled his rig into a busy intersection.

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

The change in trend towards lifted four wheel drives and dual cabs is interesting.

I never saw the appeal in a lowered Falcon or Commodore, but that was always the done thing. Late model Falcodore with P-plates, slammed into the weeds, big wheels, huge subwoofer on the parcel shelf, noisy exhaust. The driver then had to run the gauntlet trying to get away with a car that was too loud and too low.

Now, it's ancient Nissan Patrol's and an assortment of dual cabs with noisy mud plugger tyres, lift kits, snorkels, roof racks permanently stacked with offroad gear, diesel blow off valves. And yet, that sort of thing doesn't seem to raise the attention of the law.

Going by what I have seen, a lowered Falcodore with superior brakes and tyres would be safer than a lifted dual cab on mud tyres and a huge amount of weight strapped to the roof. It seems to be the done thing for P-platers to drive around corners attempting to lift the inside wheels off the deck, one nearly rolled his rig into a busy intersection.

Great point. A Falcodore is much easier to drive dangerously in compared to a 79 series Cruiser, Hilux or GQ Patrol, even when stock.

Start lifting the 4WDs and fitting ridiculous “extension” tyres and the gap widens even further.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

Great point. A Falcodore is much easier to drive dangerously in compared to a 79 series Cruiser, Hilux or GQ Patrol, even when stock.

Start lifting the 4WDs and fitting ridiculous “extension” tyres and the gap widens even further.

Hmm, not what I was meaning.

Sure, Falcon's and Commodore's are powerful rear drive cars that can be driven recklessly. But at least they have some dynamic prowess combined with decent brakes.

A lifted dual cab or 4wd is not going to be as forgiving dynamically, especially when combined with lift kits and the potential to roll over with little provocation. And don't forget about the drum brakes most of the dual cabs come fitted with, combined with heavy weight, they won't have the braking capacity of a Falcon or Commodore.

[Sprintey]

Covid was the acceleration of it - the boys could go 4x4 with their mates as opposed to being locked down, it seemed. For regional kids it was the escape of that time. So everyone of them got a 4x4.

My son has both, the Falcon and the 4x4. He's been smart and not modified them too much, certainly not to the extent his mates have - say spending 40-60K on an 80 with full rebuilds and body modifications. His 4x4 can keep up just through general excellence, and he's become a good 4x4 driver. Better than me and I had work training and years in the field. If there's one he would keep, he says it would be the 4x4 as the wagon body is better for work, camping, surfing, off road. We still have a laugh at it's handling and the Falcon is way safer. It will probably be better to keep two well than go through 9 separate cars over the long term.

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Hmm, not what I was meaning.

Sure, Falcon's and Commodore's are powerful rear drive cars that can be driven recklessly. But at least they have some dynamic prowess combined with decent brakes.

A lifted dual cab or 4wd is not going to be as forgiving dynamically, especially when combined with lift kits and the potential to roll over with little provocation. And don't forget about the drum brakes most of the dual cabs come fitted with, combined with heavy weight, they won't have the braking capacity of a Falcon or Commodore.

I feel like I didn't articulate myself well.

What I meant was when you're driving at dangerous speeds, a Falcodore is easier to handle.

Heck those dual cabs are hard enough to handle at legal speeds, even compared to my 90s Falcons, and have less get up and go too for the most part.

[XR Martin]

Dont forget the crash safety of the older cheaper dual cabs (PJ Ranger, D22 Navara, 6th gen Hilux, 3rd gen Triton, RA Rodeo) are no better than an E-series.
7th gen Hilux was the first one to take it seriously (which was equivalent to an AU in terms of crash safety)

D22 for example (which were still sold here in 2015)
https://youtu.be/w6IsQSSSEj0?si=B4ox6M4UwC6LCDzZ

[whynot]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

A lifted dual cab or 4wd is not going to be as forgiving dynamically, especially when combined with lift kits and the potential to roll over with little provocation. And don't forget about the drum brakes most of the dual cabs come fitted with, combined with heavy weight, they won't have the braking capacity of a Falcon or Commodore.

There was a lot of pontification by Wheels, Modern Motor, ABC Torque, et al during the 1980's about suspension and braking setups. At one time the target was the leaf springs in the XC and XD Falcon, and the snap roll steer in the Watt's linkage rear setup in the XE. Another time it was against the drum brakes, dangerous understeer followed by roll oversteer of the Holden HJ. Then there was a massive push by the motoring journalists towards sedans (e.g. Commodore and Falcon) having independent rear suspension. Journalists also whinged that engines too had to have more power and more refinement.

Yet, here we are four decades later. And the public has clearly voted with their wallets. Leaf spring rears, rear drum brakes (on selected models), high centre-of-gravity, slippery tyres, gutless and clattery diesels. And, as others have pointed out, policing that seems to turn a blind eye to clearly illegal vehicle mods (as long as it is a banged up 4WD). Fortunately, the various electronic systems keep some of dynamics in check.

But ... still ... Peter Wherrett and Bill Tuckey must roll in their graves at times.

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by whynot

There was a lot of pontification by Wheels, Modern Motor, ABC Torque, et al during the 1980's about suspension and braking setups. At one time the target was the leaf springs in the XC and XD Falcon, and the snap roll steer in the Watt's linkage rear setup in the XE. Another time it was against the drum brakes, dangerous understeer followed by roll oversteer of the Holden HJ. Then there was a massive push by the motoring journalists towards sedans (e.g. Commodore and Falcon) having independent rear suspension. Journalists also whinged that engines too had to have more power and more refinement.

Yet, here we are four decades later. And the public has clearly voted with their wallets. Leaf spring rears, rear drum brakes (on selected models), high centre-of-gravity, slippery tyres, gutless and clattery diesels. And, as others have pointed out, policing that seems to turn a blind eye to clearly illegal vehicle mods (as long as it is a banged up 4WD). Fortunately, the various electronic systems keep some of dynamics in check.

But ... still ... Peter Wherrett and Bill Tuckey must roll in their graves at times.

I remember the IRS bleating from the 90s, and everybody having a go at the antiquated Falcon's Watts link rear suspension. Drum brakes have not been available on a Falcon sedan/wagon since 1986, and I'm not sure about Commodore but they have definitely had discs all round since 1988.

Not too many cars have IRS these days. Heck even the Ranger only finally, just now, got a Watts link rear. The FWD stuff is mostly all torsion beam (even models that got IRS in the past like the Mazda 3).

Also...a bog standard 4.0i OHC from 1992 or so is more refined than any Thai Special engine on the market, excluding specific performance ones like the Raptor.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by whynot

There was a lot of pontification by Wheels, Modern Motor, ABC Torque, et al during the 1980's about suspension and braking setups. At one time the target was the leaf springs in the XC and XD Falcon, and the snap roll steer in the Watt's linkage rear setup in the XE. Another time it was against the drum brakes, dangerous understeer followed by roll oversteer of the Holden HJ. Then there was a massive push by the motoring journalists towards sedans (e.g. Commodore and Falcon) having independent rear suspension. Journalists also whinged that engines too had to have more power and more refinement.

Yet, here we are four decades later. And the public has clearly voted with their wallets. Leaf spring rears, rear drum brakes (on selected models), high centre-of-gravity, slippery tyres, gutless and clattery diesels. And, as others have pointed out, policing that seems to turn a blind eye to clearly illegal vehicle mods (as long as it is a banged up 4WD). Fortunately, the various electronic systems keep some of dynamics in check.

But ... still ... Peter Wherrett and Bill Tuckey must roll in their graves at times.

Excellent post!

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

I remember the IRS bleating from the 90s, and everybody having a go at the antiquated Falcon's Watts link rear suspension. Drum brakes have not been available on a Falcon sedan/wagon since 1986, and I'm not sure about Commodore but they have definitely had discs all round since 1988.

Not too many cars have IRS these days. Heck even the Ranger only finally, just now, got a Watts link rear. The FWD stuff is mostly all torsion beam (even models that got IRS in the past like the Mazda 3).

Also...a bog standard 4.0i OHC from 1992 or so is more refined than any Thai Special engine on the market, excluding specific performance ones like the Raptor.

Still trying to compare petrol to diesel ......Thai specials are light years ahead of diesels from 1992 ......

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by PooDog

Still trying to compare petrol to diesel ......Thai specials are light years ahead of diesels from 1992 ......

I'm comparing standard family car engine from 1992 to standard family car engine from 2024.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by PooDog

Still trying to compare petrol to diesel ......Thai specials are light years ahead of diesels from 1992 ......

To be fair, both petrol and diesel engines have come a long, long, way from 1992.

And, in the interests of full disclosure: I too am standing in line for a Thai special (Everest Sport). Still have a 10 month wait.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by PooDog

Still trying to compare petrol to diesel ......Thai specials are light years ahead of diesels from 1992 ......

Diesel from 1992 will probably last forever, a late model one very unlikely.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

Diesel from 1992 will probably last forever, a late model one very unlikely.

Yes and probably still getting to its original destination

[Sprintey]

For the 2H the journey was the destination.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

I remember the IRS bleating from the 90s, and everybody having a go at the antiquated Falcon's Watts link rear suspension. Drum brakes have not been available on a Falcon sedan/wagon since 1986, and I'm not sure about Commodore but they have definitely had discs all round since 1988.

Not too many cars have IRS these days. Heck even the Ranger only finally, just now, got a Watts link rear. The FWD stuff is mostly all torsion beam (even models that got IRS in the past like the Mazda 3).

Also...a bog standard 4.0i OHC from 1992 or so is more refined than any Thai Special engine on the market, excluding specific performance ones like the Raptor.

Great post!

A common theme of the reviewers in the mags back in the day was this constant pursuit of better engineering. And so everything from RTS to ABS to IRS to discs happened. And we ended up with some very good cars, monocoque, 4 wheel discs, ABS, traction controls, increasing amounts of airbags, better crumple zones, more sophisticated suspensions.

In recent years the mechanical spec has gone backwards in volume sellers, the drums/separate chassis/live axles that gave my minesite Hilux 3 star safety (while locally made utes had to be 5 star) has become widespread everywhere. Party like it's 1982 with Watts links! Torsion bar on Mazda 3 zoom zoom...

At the current rate hopefully bench seats and 3 on the tree transmission shifters will return.

[PooDog]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

Diesel from 1992 will probably last forever, a late model one very unlikely.

You could say the same about everything really, look at household appliances our 2 year old TV broke down a couple of years back ....I asked the technician how long do they last these days , he said about 5 years 🤔

It looks like the screens on its way out now ....so he wasn't far off

[ToryMikey]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Great post!

A common theme of the reviewers in the mags back in the day was this constant pursuit of better engineering. And so everything from RTS to ABS to IRS to discs happened. And we ended up with some very good cars, monocoque, 4 wheel discs, ABS, traction controls, increasing amounts of airbags, better crumple zones, more sophisticated suspensions.

In recent years the mechanical spec has gone backwards in volume sellers, the drums/separate chassis/live axles that gave my minesite Hilux 3 star safety (while locally made utes had to be 5 star) has become widespread everywhere. Party like it's 1982 with Watts links! Torsion bar on Mazda 3 zoom zoom...

At the current rate hopefully bench seats and 3 on the tree transmission shifters will return.

I'd be happy if manuals and 6 cylinder petrols returned at all!

I stand by my statement that a 3 on the tree crossflow XF has more enthusiast appeal than a Hilux

[Sprintey]

Roy Morgan poll of buying intentions, hybrid up, electric up, diesel down.

https://www.roymorgan.com/findings/9...-december-2023

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by ToryMikey

They don't all actually use them to go off road, do they?

Actually, quite a few do, although the main attraction is capability to do so if ever required to do so.

It will always stagger me that off roading seems to be the main "car enthusiast" activity here in Australia these days. Not that there's anything wrong with it, but it seems like the young generation that wants to have a fun to drive car for the streets has died out.

Neighbourhoods are quieter of a night now that “enthusiasts” have moved on..

I used to be with it, but then they changed what "it" was...

I have my rebuilt EB 5.0 Fairmont, an absolute bargain compared to today’s entry price.

[whynot]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Neighbourhoods are quieter of a night now that “enthusiasts” have moved on..

I would disagree with that comment, particularly around where I live.

Sure, not as many thumping V8. But plenty of modified (read loud) Harley bikes tearing up and down the Gateway Motorway. Like, so loud, that one can literally hear them coming for five minutes and then going for another five minutes.

Then there are the Jap superbikes spinning somewhere north of 12,000 rpm.

Followed by the ricers with their blowoff valves and deliberate backfiring.

Next are the B-Doubles with modified stack exhausts that crackles when the exhaust brake is used.

Sigh. Gee I am getting old and cranky ....

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by whynot

I would disagree with that comment, particularly around where I live.

Sure, not as many thumping V8. But plenty of modified (read loud) Harley bikes tearing up and down the Gateway Motorway. Like, so loud, that one can literally hear them coming for five minutes and then going for another five minutes.

Then there are the Jap superbikes spinning somewhere north of 12,000 rpm.

Followed by the ricers with their blowoff valves and deliberate backfiring.

Next are the B-Doubles with modified stack exhausts that crackles when the exhaust brake is used.

Sigh. Gee I am getting old and cranky ....

I have never understood why its ok for a Harley to be so loud, but apparently my V8 Mustang with an aftermarket exhaust is illegal. At least a V8 Mustang sounds good!