So is it the end of the Holden??

[bobthebilda]

Gee, i wonder if Deveraux's continual begging for government money may backfire. You certainly woudlnt go out and buy a car if at the stroke of a pen, GM can just basically disown Holden and let it collapse (especially if the books show liabilities exceed assets). Its not like they dont have a proven track record of trying to get out of warranties for Old GM and Saab.

[jpd80]

For Holden to receive $149 million in funding over three years and comply with government guidelines,
they have to have spent at least three times that much starting up the Cruze production in Australia,
if that is true then they would have spent approximately $450 Million, maybe $500 million with Cruze hatch stamping and tooling.

PS, my figures on FG build numbers came from Russell's. tech resources...

We also know that Cruze retails from $21K to just over $32K
while Commodore /Falcon and their Ute derivatives sell for roughly the same prices.
the difference is Territory, its prices keep the Ford plant's combined product pricing much higher.

That's not insider knowledge, that's just simple deduction from information everyone else can see.....

[stang65]

Well the truth finally comes out, How long has Holden been going on about how good they are and these ******** journo`s go on about how Ford is going to pack up and leave. I hope Holden get a leg up just so I can see the headline in big black print Holden cost tax payers $300 million and don`t know how to make a profit. Another guy who is just sick of the Holden and journo propaganda.

I`m sure all the closet Holden guys on the forum are in tears.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Listen, you guys whinge and moan about stuff but how much time do you really take to research stuff before you post?

I'll admit sometimes some of the things I post are a little off base but mostly set in some basic truth.

I am happy to step back and stop posting and let you all continue discussing whatever..................


See ya.

If I had to choose I'd choose you to stay........

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by stang65

I`m sure all the closet Holden guys on the forum are in tears.

Or maybe Ford and Holden are accentuating problems in the hope of picking up easy cash in an election year.....

I remember Gorman's veiled threat in 2006 that Ford would gradually pull out of Australia
and that without government funding Ford wouldn't do FG, just a refreshed BF to continue on...

Just remember motor companies are past masters in shifting round figures...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

If I had to choose I'd choose you to stay........

I'm not going anywhere but point taken on separating opinion from fact.

[stang65]

Jp I hope you didn`t think i was referring to you. i actually find the effort you go to your posts commendable.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by stang65

Jp I hope you didn`t think i was referring to you. i actually find the effort you go to your posts commendable.

Thank you, I don't mean to be anti Holden , the place would be much worse off without them.
It's their parent company I have issue with and the way they have left Holden hung out to dry so many times...

On topic,

Does anyone have any info on how much funding Holden would be looking for?

Would they need something like $100 million or so to keep Commodore "alive"?
If so, that's not a big ask.....

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Listen, you guys whinge and moan about stuff but how much time do you really take to research stuff before you post?

I'll admit sometimes some of the things I post are a little off base but mostly set in some basic truth.

I am happy to step back and stop posting and let you all continue discussing whatever..................


See ya.

We may sometimes disagree jdp80, but you're one of the good guys, whereas I'm just the village schmuck. i always look forward to your posts, you know what you're talking about.

[ebxr8240]

[QUOTE=jpd80Does anyone have any info on how much funding Holden would be looking for?

Would they need something like $100 million or so to keep Commodore "alive"?
If so, that's not a big ask.....[/QUOTE]

A year ....?? They can ask...
http://www.usdebtclock.org/

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Iggypoppin'

It would mean thousands left without a job. What decent Aussie, Holden fan or not, would want that?

Too right cobba. It's bloody Un-Australian. To think of Aussie mums and dad's by the thousands getting the sack just isn't cricket. Not to mention the death of an Australian nameplate.

As much as I detest GM product in general. GM is as much a vital contributor to the nations automotive industry as Ford is.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-1...tralia/3766370

Good video in that link for anyone who hasn't watched it.

[Venomous1]

Originally Posted by jpd80

For Holden to receive $149 million in funding over three years and comply with government guidelines,
they have to have spent at least three times that much starting up the Cruze production in Australia,
if that is true then they would have spent approximately $450 Million, maybe $500 million with Cruze hatch stamping and tooling.

PS, my figures on FG build numbers came from Russell's. tech resources...

We also know that Cruze retails from $21K to just over $32K
while Commodore /Falcon and their Ute derivatives sell for roughly the same prices.
the difference is Territory, its prices keep the Ford plant's combined product pricing much higher.

That's not insider knowledge, that's just simple deduction from information everyone else can see.....

I enjoy your posts! Haters gonna Hate.

[Fordman1]

Originally Posted by stevz

I wasn't referring solely to those two posts, but his posts in general.

Hit a raw nerve did we ?

[FGX-351]

Originally Posted by Barraxr8

Hit a raw nerve did we ?

Looks like it.
I'm itching to see where this goes, Stevs is one of my favourite AFF Holden sympathizers! lolol

[jpd80]

What amazes me is that people still think Holden is much safer than Ford because they run two shifts,
everytime you look in the press, it's always production numbers, it's always the most sales.

I get it that Holden now builds a very popular small car in Australia but filling your plant with vehicles
that retail at around thwo thirds the cost of your large cars is a dual edge sword, the money Holden
wants to make from Commodore sales is now being replaced by Cruze production.


I have no idea of the difference in internal costs to build a Cruze versus a Commodore but since
Cruze was needed to keep Commodore and Elizabeth plant viable, everything must be OK...

Maybe this is just Ford, Holden bleating about funding cuts after Toyota got funds for new Camry.....

Time will tell..

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by jpd80

What amazes me is that people still think Holden is much safer than Ford because they run two shifts,
everytime you look in the press, it's always production numbers, it's always the most sales.

So true, I remember quite well the gloating and arrogance on some Holden forums pre-GFC and leading into it that Ford Oz was dead and Ford Global leading the funeral procession. Fast forward a few years and then we find out it was Holden that only just got saved from GM dumping it during it's Chapter 11 backruptcy and reorganisation due to Aust Gov. financial guarantees and Cruze funding assistance. If not for the assistance it was gone...Ford Australia never even got close to this level of survival desperation and yet all negative focus was solely on Ford and it continues today thanks to Gover, Hagon, Spinks et al...

I understand Ford will never be held in the same regard as Holden by the Australian public or media however it's built cars for longer in Australia and last time I looked both have US parents that pull the same strings and both employ Australians...and why don't Gover, Hagon, Spinks et al...just go back to writing roadtests on cars....wouldn't that be novel for motoring journo's.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Dr Smith

So true, I remember quite well the gloating and arrogance on some Holden forums pre-GFC and leading into it that Ford Oz was dead and Ford Global leading the funeral procession. Fast forward a few years and then we find out it was Holden that only just got saved from GM dumping it during it's Chapter 11 backruptcy and reorganisation due to Aust Gov. financial guarantees and Cruze funding assistance. If not for the assistance it was gone...

Ford Australia never even got close to this level of survival desperation and yet all negative focus was solely on Ford and it continues today thanks to Gover, Hagon, Spinks et al...

Something that should never be forgotten...

I understand Ford will never be held in the same regard as Holden by the Australian public or media however it's built cars for longer in Australia and last time I looked both have US parents that pull the same strings and both employ Australians...and why don't Gover, Hagon, Spinks et al...just go back to writing roadtests on cars....wouldn't that be novel for motoring journo's.

Holden love is a dual edged sword too, watch the venom from their fans when the news isn't good...
Both camps need to chill out and stop listening so much to pretend info from lournalists...

[Gobes32]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Good video in that link for anyone who hasn't watched it.

I read the article, I would be scared of SA's Opposition Leader Isobel Redmond coming into power, she seems very ill-informed.

[Reaper8]

it was a story about holden yet they still had to slag off ford about sales numbers, dropping the ball. they get bagged out for not exporting cars but i think they were not allowed to by fordglobal arnt they

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

I heard Toyota is downsizing their imports, along with their cars built in Aust.

I've seen the newspaper seems to be alot thinner since Xmas.

In other words. The Journos are trying to justify their jobs, so they're writing what ever they bloody feel like to full space in the papers.

Oh and the gov't handouts to Holden. Does anybody stop to think, how many other industries rely on car manufacturing plants being in the area? This includes Ford. Having them there, means more people have a bloody job, which in turn means they pay more in tax (more money to the gov't) and they spend more money (which means more money to the gov't), rather than these people recieving gov't handouts (which means the gov't gets bugger all money from these people)

So instead of these forum members just jumping up and down about Holden getting a gov't handout, flip over to the other side of the coin and look at the benefits the gov't gets from keeping the doors open to this manufacturing plant.

Totally agreed!

Some members make me laugh.
Rather than being proud of Ford for going it alone they whinge that Holden gets a handout.
If Ford got a handout they'd still only build cars that no one buys so why bother.
They've got LPi, ecoboost, a world class turbo/na 6, and a ball tearing V8 all in a fantastic package, but they have a woeful marketing dept and so it becomes all irrelevant as the sales dont support it.
Govco money wont change that.

[Reaper8]

the only aussie built car i have seen advertised on tv is the terri cant remmember the last time i saw a falcon ad. its like they want it to die

[Road_Warrior]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-01-1...nalyst/3767968

Keeping Holden in Australia 'could cost $200m'

State and federal governments could be forced to pay up to $200 million to keep Holden factories in Australia, a workforce analyst says.

Professor John Spoehr is the executive director of the Australian Centre for Labour Research.

Both the federal and South Australian governments have indicated they will pay Holden's parent company General Motors a "substantial sum" to prevent manufacturing from being moved offshore.

Professor Spoehr says there are precedents for large spending to prop up the Australian motor vehicle industry.

"You can go back to the establishment of the car industry in Australia and it was done on the back of Government support and assistance so there's really no time in history when the auto industry has existed without Government support of one form or another," he said.

"Of course, we remember that tariffs were the main form of assistance but now it comes in the form of direct grants and cash assistance.

"It could be anywhere between 100 and 200 million [dollars]."

Professor Spoehr says keeping Holden factories in Australia is crucial to the health of the economy.

"It spurns a whole lot of innovation in other parts of manufacturing in Australia," he said.

"No really successful Western economy doesn't have an auto manufacturing industry so it would be a very bad sign, a very bad outcome to lose it."

There's a big difference between 100 and 200 million dollars Mr Spoehr

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by stevz

I wasn't referring solely to those two posts, but his posts in general.

I find the posts from jpd80 very informative and more to the point a little bit more factual than just biased opinions. I would be very careful pulling someone up who has taken the time to find figures that back a point being made rather than just stating an opinion.

Data taken from the media is very different than taking opinions from most journalists and before you start trying to force an argument I think you had better acquaint yourself with the differences ..... By all means debate the issues but put some facts up to make your point.

Continue on jd80 ....... enjoying the read

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Auslandau

I find the posts from jpd80 very informative and more to the point a little bit more factual than just biased opinions. I would be very careful pulling someone up who has taken the time to find figures that back a point being made rather than just stating an opinion.

Data taken from the media is very different than taking opinions from most journalists and before you start trying to force an argument I think you had better acquaint yourself with the differences ..... By all means debate the issues but put some facts up to make your point.

Continue on jd80 ....... enjoying the read

Slam dunk!

Jpd80's contributions to this and many other forums are nothing short of excellent.
Jpd80, keep on keeping on! Always a pleasure reading your posts mate.

[theboxmike]

Gotta luv Holden Num nuts opinions on this

http://www.ls1.com.au/forum/showthre...f-Holden/page2

"Falcon and Territory Sell nothing" Wait didn't Territory just sell the most SUVs in the country?

I love how it's all about sales to them and nothing about profit.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Slam dunk!

Jpd80's contributions to this and many other forums are nothing short of excellent.
Jpd80, keep on keeping on! Always a pleasure reading your posts mate.

+2. Keep up the good work, you provide some good info for all of us.

Don't let the closet Holden fanboi's tell you otherwise cause they can't handle that their precious lion can barely give a whimper.

[basteve]

It will go to Thailand or some other place and do what others have done like Bonds (Australia)? Then sell them here as if nothing has changed.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Paxton

That being said, has anyone seen a Cruze hatch on the road? I've seen more LPI Falcons.

Seen probably half a dozen Cruze Hatches just this week, havnt seen one LPi

[BENT_8]

I'd be curious to know how many people are able to put food on their tables as a direct result of the auto industry as a whole, from parts suppliers, road transport and the guys on the line too.
You would have to think that making a large % of them redundant and in turn putting extra pressure on welfare gap payments until they found other work, wouldnt take long to soak up 200 million dollars taking into account the lost tax revenue in the meantime.

The evidence in Adelaide can be scene as recent as the Bridgestone closure which despite a huge campaign to reskill, still took some time for the 600 employee's to find work.
Compare that to the 3000 employees on the floor at Elizabeth, not to mention the huge workforce making parts in Edinburugh Parks and the guys bringing bulk product to them, myself included.
It just wouldn't be feesible to allow them to fold and i doubt the incoming Jay Wetherill would allow its fate to be signed off on so early in his tenure.

Mitsubishi was a different story as the appeal of the Magna just wasn't as strong as the Commodore/Cruze is now despite the shift away from large platforms, they were just flogging a dead horse propping MMAL up.

The desal plant at Lonsdale would have soaked up its share of the redundant workers down south, we dont have any large infrastructure projects in the pipeline in the northern suburbs to compensate.
Losing the Elizabeth plant and the support structure surrounding it would be disasterous to the state economy IMO.

I must admit though, some of the guys are getting rediculous hourly rates which doesnt help the bottom dollar.
A good mate works in the paint shop wet rubbing imperfections and he told me he was doing 12hr shifts at around $95hr over the last couple of months.

Just my 2c worth as a nervous northern suburbs SA resident.