VFacts November 2023

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by GT1533

So it’s not true, but it’s true?

It’s not speculation. It’s common knowledge. Perhaps you could explain why you think an FBT advantage versus most of the rest of the market doesn’t result in higher sales.

I'm thinking back before my driving time, to the 1970s when panel vans and utes were classified as commercials and thus avoided tax and were cheaper? Voila - entire panel van culture springs up.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Yes, this is on the watchlist - if not the top 20 sellers. Base petrol AWD being the sweet spot perhaps. Looking at low to mid 60s? Have seen some reviews where they suggest the drivetrain isn't as refined as what you would expect with inline 6/torque converter auto but I'm sure they will fix this. Anyone own one? What's it like?

Mechanic also suggested Isuzu MUX for a long term travel car with an unbustable (diesel) drivetrain. Anyone own one? Is it as uncomfortable as some private reviewers say?

Expensive to fix, parts are hard to get (accident repairs), steering rack hangs low and easy to damage when off road, also compared to a Prado underneath everything looks a bit weak.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Mechanic also suggested Isuzu MUX for a long term travel car with an unbustable (diesel) drivetrain. Anyone own one? Is it as uncomfortable as some private reviewers say?

MUX sells on price and the supposed "unbustable" engine. Yet from experience, that engine is not something I would want to sit behind for hours on end, its a truck engine and its presence is always heard and felt. Easily the noisiest engine in the segment, not to mention low output figures.

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

MUX sells on price and the supposed "unbustable" engine. Yet from experience, that engine is not something I would want to sit behind for hours on end, its a truck engine and its presence is always heard and felt. Easily the noisiest engine in the segment, not to mention low output figures.

It only shines in the aftermarket, otherwise from the factory it's a right turd, super noisy. It's the same engine as what the Isuzu NPR uses.

[XR Martin]

Plus it vibrates so much you can feel it through the steering wheel..
I reckon my lawn mower has less vibration.

[FTE217]

lol the MUX.
Bro in-law had the last gen more so for towing a van and budget.
Rides like a hard turd - towed ok no more no less he struggled owning it having had a Land Rover Disco company car before that was awesum to he mind you with factory wty.


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[b0son]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

MUX sells on price and the supposed "unbustable" engine. Y

Even if it's true, the body wasn't unbustable. 2017-2019 Dmax's and MUX's were noteable for cracked chassis. Subject of an ongoing class action.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by XR Martin

Plus it vibrates so much you can feel it through the steering wheel..
I reckon my lawn mower has less vibration.

Yep, very unpleasant. Even when cruising, any slight touch of the throttle has it barking back through the firewall. You see so many people with these things towing and touring with them. That would get very tiring in short order, something you would have to live with. But hey, "Go Your Own Way" or something like that.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Yep, very unpleasant. Even when cruising, any slight touch of the throttle has it barking back through the firewall. You see so many people with these things towing and touring with them. That would get very tiring in short order, something you would have to live with. But hey, "Go Your Own Way" or something like that.

As someone who owns a caravan and who is a member on a caravan forum and have also been to a few van parks, I can vouch for them being very popular among that crowd.

I've never given them a second thought. Did look at them once as an upgrade tow vehicle to the territory but power and torque numbers aren't great. I figured a lot of the older folk bought it because truck motor.

So I'm quite surprised by all this negative feedback. They are a very basic vehicle, inside and out, so I always figured they were popular due to their drive train and now I find out that's pretty rubbish as well.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by prydey

As someone who owns a caravan and who is a member on a caravan forum and have also been to a few van parks, I can vouch for them being very popular among that crowd.

I've never given them a second thought. Did look at them once as an upgrade tow vehicle to the territory but power and torque numbers aren't great. I figured a lot of the older folk bought it because truck motor.

So I'm quite surprised by all this negative feedback. They are a very basic vehicle, inside and out, so I always figured they were popular due to their drive train and now I find out that's pretty rubbish as well.

I don't think the durability of that particular engine is in doubt, but its very unrefined, and to me, that would be fatiguing with extended hours behind the wheel. I guess this is why the Prado and Landcruiser sell so well, at least they are somewhat refined for long distance stuff. Everest too now that it comes with the V6.

I have also found over the years that people don't tend talk about the fact they bought the "wrong" car, or that the car they saved money by buying isn't all that good. Same mentality from those who buy MG's or Havels, they get a cheaper purchase price, but also get a cheap experience. Admitting that publicly isn't an easy pill to swallow. (Not meaning to offend anyone with that, just a human trait I have noticed.)

[prydey]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

I have also found over the years that people don't tend talk about the fact they bought the "wrong" car, or that the car they saved money by buying isn't all that good. Same mentality from those who buy MG's or Havels, they get a cheaper purchase price, but also get a cheap experience. Admitting that publicly isn't an easy pill to swallow. (Not meaning to offend anyone with that, just a human trait I have noticed.)

I share the same view.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

. I guess this is why the Prado and Landcruiser sell so well,

While this is true, Ranger is well and truly in the conversation now. I often wander around the van parks when I'm there and ranger is very popular.

So while people might see a lot around town and assume they are just tax write off's etc, there are many being bought because they are a versatile vehicle.

[Franco Cozzo]

To me the D-Max shines as a robust single cab Ute, a Hilux Workmate competitor.

It used to be cheap and that engine has been around for decades with various revisions.


But it's no longer cheap and the povvo pack single cab Ute comes with a different 1.9L engine now instead of the 3L

The 2022 Isuzu D-MAX SX Single Cab Chassis will set you back $34,200 plus on-road costs when the 1.9-litre turbo-diesel four-cylinder engine is combined with a six-speed automatic transmission and 4x2 driveline.

That’s $2000 more than the six-speed manual version, which is the cheapest D-MAX you can buy.

Our test D-MAX added a $2888 tray, a $1075 tow bar and tongue kit, a $359 tow bar harness, $820 electronic brake controller and $120 rubber mats as well as on-road costs and stamp duty to drive out the showroom door priced at $43,904.70.

That’s a fair whack for a basic workaday vehicle, especially as the manual D-MAX 1.9 has been offered on a $31,990 drive-away deal price for a while now.

https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...review-138834/

Now that the povvo pack single cabs are into the 40s and 50s you'd be better off with Himo 300 or Isuzu NPR at 4500kg GVM

There's no doubt the dual cab Thailand Special is the price performance king for the do anything vehicle, especially if you have a caravan.

You can store a little bit in the back, take the van, have extra passengers if you need and pull 3500kg (with a hit to payload).

[MITCHAY]

Yet again just daylight between Toyota and next best in total sales. Hoping Ranger finishes on top at least because if was in the market that is where I'd start before a Hilux.

[DFB FGXR6]

Originally Posted by prydey

While this is true, Ranger is well and truly in the conversation now. I often wander around the van parks when I'm there and ranger is very popular.

So while people might see a lot around town and assume they are just tax write off's etc, there are many being bought because they are a versatile vehicle.

With the V6, Ranger is easily the one to go for in that price range. As you would know having a diesel Territory, the refinement gap between 4- and 6-cylinder diesels is huge. I'd have no problem doing big km's in a V6 Ranger or Everest, for refinement and having that extra grunt to get the job done.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Franco Cozzo

There's no doubt the dual cab Thailand Special is the price performance king for the do anything vehicle, especially if you have a caravan.

You can store a little bit in the back, take the van, have extra passengers if you need and pull 3500kg (with a hit to payload).

The odd one out is actually hilux in the caravan community. There are a few but I reckon I see more Colorado's than hilux.

I think caravanners would rather buy prado or Landcruiser than spend the kind of money hilux is asking. For whatever reason it doesn't seem as popular when it comes to vanners.

Also in the real world very few tow 3.5t. A large percentage are still under 3t.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

With the V6, Ranger is easily the one to go for in that price range. As you would know having a diesel Territory, the refinement gap between 4- and 6-cylinder diesels is huge. I'd have no problem doing big km's in a V6 Ranger or Everest, for refinement and having that extra grunt to get the job done.

I don't think caravanners look that hard in to it. The 4cyl/5cyl versions are still very popular.

As mentioned earlier, the mux is popular so refinement isn't very high up the list.

[Dr Smith]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Yes, this is on the watchlist - if not the top 20 sellers. Base petrol AWD being the sweet spot perhaps. Looking at low to mid 60s? Have seen some reviews where they suggest the drivetrain isn't as refined as what you would expect with inline 6/torque converter auto but I'm sure they will fix this. Anyone own one? What's it like?

Mechanic also suggested Isuzu MUX for a long term travel car with an unbustable (diesel) drivetrain. Anyone own one? Is it as uncomfortable as some private reviewers say?

Apparently it's not a "true torque converter auto, but Mazda's own development.

It’s mated to an in-house eight-speed automatic transmission. It doesn’t use a traditional torque converter setup, instead it uses a wet clutch.

Should have just called ZF.
I also believe the CX inline sixes have rear timing chains if that is an issue down the track.

One day I'm going to have to replace our Terri, although as a late 2016 build, 62,000km it's doing ok...but that buying itch does flare up sometimes.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

Mazda's new CX60 and CX90 are RWD drive platforms, even better they come with an inline 6.

So, how many of those who have long pined for a Territory replacement are going to buy the Mazda now?

https://www.mazda.com.au/cars/cx-60/
https://www.mazda.com.au/cars/cx-90/

Bought and paid for the cx60 two months ago. Inline 6 turbo engine and RWD bias AWD was one of the main factors. Also the size is great. Tried a CX5 at the same time as the CX60 and felt cramped.....probably because the Falcon and Territory have plenty of space when your driving so maybe I'm just use to being comfortable when driving.

[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by prydey

The odd one out is actually hilux in the caravan community. There are a few but I reckon I see more Colorado's than hilux.

I think caravanners would rather buy prado or Landcruiser than spend the kind of money hilux is asking. For whatever reason it doesn't seem as popular when it comes to vanners.

Also in the real world very few tow 3.5t. A large percentage are still under 3t.

My own Toyota observation when on the road.
Hilux's seem to be the go to for the large camper trailers, while as you say Landcruisers and Prado's are found more on caravan duty. (weekenders)
Adding to this further, the older full timer (large caravan) crowd, love the Landcruiser 70's but RAM's/GMC's are becoming more common.

As far as 5th wheelers are concerned RAM's and older import F250's rule the roost with the occasional spotting of a Ranger pulling the smaller Travelhome or Sunliner type.

But most mid sized wobbly boxes are Rangers, Isuzu's, Disco's.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by roKWiz

My own Toyota observation when on the road.
Hilux's seem to be the go to for the large camper trailers, while as you say Landcruisers and Prado's are found more on caravan duty. (weekenders)
Adding to this further, the older full timer (large caravan) crowd, love the Landcruiser 70's but RAM's/GMC's are becoming more common.

As far as 5th wheelers are concerned RAM's and older import F250's rule the roost with the occasional spotting of a Ranger pulling the smaller Travelhome or Sunliner type.

But most mid sized wobbly boxes are Rangers, Isuzu's, Disco's.

Prdtty much my observations too although I think you'll find as many new Prado's and 200s Cruisers off the blacktop as Hilux whereas not many Hilux in Caravan parks where its more middle aged/older vanners with Prado and 200/300s Cruiser.
Ranger is also popular with the middle aged/older vanners in parks too.
Then you have the Pajero split of either older vanners who've had them from new and still in top nick or younger families in 2nd/3rd hand examples due to being cheaper than Prado's.
Then a scattering of the rest.

[FTE217]

Yep hilux isn’t as popular for the van towing crowd as mentioned - they have 2 other options that cut the mustard easily that other brands don’t have any other option as much.
Sure Ford has the Everest but it doesn’t seem to get buyers in enough at all.
MUX has the background thought with some due to the ol Isuzu past - it’s price price price why people end up with them more than anything else let’s face it deep down they’d prefer to buy a Prado or 200series but don’t have the $$$ hence as mentioned they won’t admit that but rave about their MUX.
It’s a dog don’t care what any forum says but does the job nothing more.
RAM’s are plenty more when we frequent cara parks - Silverado at times but they also have the mega Tahaj mahal van and outdoor set up like a outdoor wedding haha


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[roKWiz]

Originally Posted by FTE217

Yep hilux isn’t as popular for the van towing crowd as mentioned - they have 2 other options that cut the mustard easily that other brands don’t have any other option as much.
Sure Ford has the Everest but it doesn’t seem to get buyers in enough at all.
MUX has the background thought with some due to the ol Isuzu past - it’s price price price why people end up with them more than anything else let’s face it deep down they’d prefer to buy a Prado or 200series but don’t have the $$$ hence as mentioned they won’t admit that but rave about their MUX.
It’s a dog don’t care what any forum says but does the job nothing more.
RAM’s are plenty more when we frequent cara parks - Silverado at times but they also have the mega Tahaj mahal van and outdoor set up like a outdoor wedding haha


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All the Hilux's must be in Victoria's High Country then, because I usually see plenty towing camper trailers all around the North East.
Seemed to be the go to pulling these things rarely see one pulling a wobbly.

[Sprintey]

Thanks for all the replies on the MUX, forum is a great resource to get the pub's opinion.

"Silverado at times but they also have the mega Tahaj mahal van and outdoor set up like a outdoor wedding haha"

Yep our older in laws, about 15 years older so a different generation, got the retirement RAM in Mad Max theme, all decked out at a 200K spend, then the mega dual axle van with all the comforts of a McMansion and all the modern tech... to do trips from van park to van park and have had all sorts of fun parking the beasts. Back in 2002 we did 18 month work trip fully remote with HJ60 and 16ft single axle bed/bunk setup pop top with 2 kids homeschooled, and managed to fit it all and have a blast despite it being simple - in fact we wanted to mail most of the stuff home and thought it would be better being even more simple. The kids grew so much and had learning experiences that were priceless, they still talk fondly of it. The work included winter in Tassie which was magical, non tourist season though cold! Learned to ski and snowboard on days off. I'd take the fam up mountains with me while I did my site, and we'd have picnics with the most incredible views... You don't need to take so much, because the valuable things are in the experience. The only thing we did to the van for some of the tracks encountered was undersling the axle which gave it better clearance. That simple van was honestly the best setup I've seen then or since.

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by DFB FGXR6

I don't think the durability of that particular engine is in doubt, but its very unrefined, and to me, that would be fatiguing with extended hours behind the wheel. I guess this is why the Prado and Landcruiser sell so well, at least they are somewhat refined for long distance stuff. Everest too now that it comes with the V6.

I have also found over the years that people don't tend talk about the fact they bought the "wrong" car, or that the car they saved money by buying isn't all that good. Same mentality from those who buy MG's or Havels, they get a cheaper purchase price, but also get a cheap experience. Admitting that publicly isn't an easy pill to swallow. (Not meaning to offend anyone with that, just a human trait I have noticed.)

This one was a really good post. In terms of resale value, buying the Territory vs a Prado was definitely the wrong choice in 2007. But, in terms of how nice and comfortable the Territory has been, it's handling and power mix, it's snow capabilities and adventures, and raising kids with it, I'd make it again if FOA still made them. It was a good choice as our lifestyle shifted back to more urban life after all our 4x4 adventures and work. Next time around, if only Toyota made petrol or petrol hybrid Prados and LC300s! (I can see these on 'car from japan' website...)

[Sprintey]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Bought and paid for the cx60 two months ago. Inline 6 turbo engine and RWD bias AWD was one of the main factors. Also the size is great. Tried a CX5 at the same time as the CX60 and felt cramped.....probably because the Falcon and Territory have plenty of space when your driving so maybe I'm just use to being comfortable when driving.

How do you find the transmission and shifts?

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Yep our older in laws, about 15 years older so a different generation, got the retirement RAM in Mad Max theme, all decked out at a 200K spend, then the mega dual axle van with all the comforts of a McMansion and all the modern tech... to do trips from van park to van park and have had all sorts of fun parking the beasts. Back in 2002 we did 18 month work trip fully remote with HJ60 and 16ft single axle bed/bunk setup pop top with 2 kids homeschooled, and managed to fit it all and have a blast despite it being simple - in fact we wanted to mail most of the stuff home and thought it would be better being even more simple. The kids grew so much and had learning experiences that were priceless, they still talk fondly of it. The work included winter in Tassie which was magical, non tourist season though cold! Learned to ski and snowboard on days off. I'd take the fam up mountains with me while I did my site, and we'd have picnics with the most incredible views... You don't need to take so much, because the valuable things are in the experience. The only thing we did to the van for some of the tracks encountered was undersling the axle which gave it better clearance. That simple van was honestly the best setup I've seen then or since.

'everyone should do things the way I do them' is a common theme amongst humans. We're very good at judging other people for their decisions and choices.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by prydey

'everyone should do things the way I do them' is a common theme amongst humans. We're very good at judging other people for their decisions and choices.

Would be pretty boring if we all had/did the same and then people would complain that everyones copying them, you cant win.

To be honest, I enjoy wandering around campgrounds and seeing the variety and talking about what makes them tick in that regard.

[Sprintey]

Yes, fair enough Prydey. What we see is the result of many individual choices. Wouldn't change my own so why expect to change others's. Next time, I reckon I'd go even more simple.

Edit: have just been informed by wife that both sets of in-laws have now downsized their vans, the other ones want to downsize further. So there's that choice.

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by Sprintey

Yes, fair enough Prydey. What we see is the result of many individual choices. Wouldn't change my own so why expect to change others's. Next time, I reckon I'd go even more simple.

Edit: have just been informed by wife that both sets of in-laws have now downsized their vans, the other ones want to downsize further. So there's that choice.

RV's seem to be bucking the trend and holding their value so whilst a large investment in luxury can seem excessive, you'll get your money back if/when you decide to downsize or get out so in the long run the price of that luxury comes down to the additional cost to get A to B.
I know people in the industry and you'd be surprised how many people buy a big van and appropriate tow rig, do a lap or 2 and flog it to break even when they've had enough.