AFF Coffee Thread

[hendrixhc]

A Sloppy puck after extraction indicates grind to course or insufficient grinds in basket.

A firm puck indicates grind to fine if it is not uniformally wet through out. it could also indicate insufficient water flow, eg scaled machine or pour pump flow.

When you bang out from the handle it should drop cleanly and remain intact.

[hendrixhc]

A tip with those latte glasses is to put approx 20ml of room temp milk in the bottom, add 2/3 of your steamed milk and froth on top and the pour your espresso shot over the top. You will end up with a small brown spot on the top of the milk and a lovelly striped effect of milk and coffee through the cup. Dont stir or add sugar before serving.

We have a couple on instant machines at work that we have "tricked" to do this with a "special" blend of instant coffee and milk powder that you would be hard pressed to tell the difference between bean and instant coffee!

[DBourne]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

Dude you've had Gloria Geans at kellyville for the Sunday coffee cruise, i KNOW you can do better than that and I haven't tasted your coffee

O yea for creamy milk fresh I use riverina, but I've also used a Braista long life thing devondale do and that goes ok as well

haha I never went in to GJ's, wouldn't lower myself to that :P

[Spudz27]

Originally Posted by hendrixhc

That pour you have pictured above is actually quite decent from that machine. It is similiar to the one i started with.

From memory they only have one small hole in the center of the basket to allow the water to pass through the grounds. If you get your coffee ground finer it will block the hole and you will not get an extraction but spitting and hissing and the handle will blow off making a huge mess!

In theory i have been told when you do a pour you let the extraction run down the inside of the cup to prevent cavitation of the pour which mixes the first 15ml , ristretto, with the last 15ml. This is so ristretto drinks dont get upset. It also allows a uniform caramel colour on the top of the pour.

The idea of pouring the milk down the side of the angled cup is so you bring the caramel colour to the top of the cup so the barista can do their magic and form those fancy patterns that make the coffee look pretty. I was told by a Barista once that people that put patterns on coffee are trying to hide a crappy coffee!

To remove the larger aeration of the milk you will see the Barista bang the milk jug on the bench 2 or 3 times before pouring in the milk. If you leave the milk to long after frothing you will also get separation of the milk and froth and not get the creamy texture transferred to the cup.

I will assume your talking about my pic lol. You are right, there is one tiny pin hole in the basket. I did do one which I must have packed too tight as it would not pass through and half the basket was left stuck to the water thing (I don't recall name)

I am currently researching the Breville 800ES, Sunbeam EM 4820 and 6200 as these are the sub $400 ones at work.

[The Yeti]

The 800ES is one I'm looking at as well

[hendrixhc]

If the budget stretches i can highly recommend the Breville BES860.

This is the one i have at home. Its good as it has a built in grinder with conical burrs, which means it can handle fresher roast beans. It has a programmable grind dose and programmable single and double shots. It also has proper single and double baskets.

The only thing i dont like about it is it doesnt have a hot water function. This doesnt effect me cause i drink lattes but it makes it hard to do long blacks!

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by SgtBourne

haha I never went in to GJ's, wouldn't lower myself to that :P

**** so I was the only fool

God it was bad I think I'd rather have a 7/11 $1:00 coffee than have another Gloria Geans coffee

[Spudz27]

Hendrix I read the Bes860 did not grind fine enough without a mod? We had the BES860 for $490 recently as it is old stock. We are selling the 870 for $700. I am just not sure I want to drop $800 right now. $400 would be my max probably.

[The Yeti]

Personally mate I'd run with your current until it dies, it looks like your turning out quality coffee, so keep learning IMHO

[trentski]

I recommend you keep a close eye on the for sale section of the coffeesnobs forum and see if you can pick up a Rancilio Silvia or Lelit/Nemox machine in your budget. You won't be able to steam milk and pour the espresso at the same time but you will be able to get more coffee in the group handle and use proper baskets at the right pressure and temperature.
Ideally you will have your own grinder and the cheapest recommended is the Breville Smart Grinder, even that with your current machine will make a big difference, if you are handy with a dremil you may be able to mod your basket by cutting off the false floor, or you may be able to buy a non-pressurised basket for it.
Ideal is 60mls in around 30 seconds for a double shot and 30mls in the same time for a single shot. Double shots are generally more forgiving and those numbers are just guides, 50 -70mls in 25-35 seconds might be close enough for your palate. After all it is about how the coffee tastes to you that matters.

If you are getting 60mls in 15 seconds then you need to grind finer (preferred) or tamp harder. Consistency is the key and it is better to just change one thing at a time until you get the results you want. You are somewhat limited by your machine but the lessons you learn with it will help you when you have a better machine and grinder.

[prydey]

heat is an enemy of beans so personally i would steer away from something with a grinder incorporated in the machine.

i would also make sure you get a machine with a commercial size group head (58mm) as a minimum.

as far as machine recommendations go for a budget, the sunbeam em6910 is virtually unbeatable. it has been superceded now to the em7000 although it is still on sale, so there are some good deals to be had if you are around at the right time. it runs twin thermoblocks which allows you to use the steam wand and extract coffee at the same time.

the equivalent in the breville is the bes900 (double boiler). this is closer to $1400. the sunbeam doesn't have quite as good steam performance but it will just about match it for coffee making.

good guys were throwing them out for $399 not long ago but they've since gone back up to around the $600 mark. i bought mine for $574 over 12months ago.

this is my setup


sunbeam em6910 machine
breville bcg800 smart grinder
pullman tamper - a must for the serious barista!!

i started with the sunbeam em0480 grinder but couldn't stand the mess and lack of dose control. the breville is just magic. so clean, no mess and great dose control and the grind steps are much much finer. the sunbeam had big steps between grinds so one setting would be too coarse and next too fine.


i noticed earlier someone mentioned milk temp should be 80 degrees?? hopefully that was a typo, as it should be 60deg.

milk texturing is a bit of an art form. you should create a whirlpool effect. the amount of foam is created in the beginning of the process by how much you 'stretch' the milk. once you have stretched it enough for your style of drink, the rest is just heating it. the tip should be 'kissing' the surface.
i don't tend to bother with latte art. i can sort of do a heart but thats about it. i have managed a poor attempt at a leaf on the odd occasion.

for lots of good info on all things coffee, try here www.coffeesnobs.com.au.

i was using their coffee beans for a while, but now use merlo beans, from brisbane.

my knowledge isn't expert, but i know enough to help people out if you are having trouble.

[hendrixhc]

Originally Posted by Spudz27

Hendrix I read the Bes860 did not grind fine enough without a mod? We had the BES860 for $490 recently as it is old stock. We are selling the 870 for $700. I am just not sure I want to drop $800 right now. $400 would be my max probably.

I havent found this at all. i played around with it quite aq bit when i first got it and at approx 2/3 of grind setting the grind is to fine with fressh roat to allow an extraction to occur.

The good thing with the unit is it has a gauge which shows the extraction pressure. If the grind is to fine or the basket is over packed them the needle goes full scale indicating the extraction will not be succesful. You can also tell by the sound of the vibrating pump struggling under load.

Getting a mid scale deflection on the needle gives the "perfect" extraction. This usually requires an adjustment of .5 on the grinder.

One other tip on getting the right amount of grind in your basket is to dose it with grinds to a peak in your basket and use you small finger and sweep the grinds off so that it is flat level with the basket rim. At this stage the grinds should be untamped. Then tamp the grinds holding the handle in one hand and pressing the tamp in with the other. you shouldnt use more pressure than just your hands can hold. You see a lot of people tamping on a table top which over pressures the grinds. You should also never fill the basket and tamp add more and tamp! Empty and start again if you have the incorrect amount!

[zx10]

Wow, what a great thread. I just learnt so much.

My girl won a Modo Mio pod machine on valentines day so thats what we use at the moment. Would love a proper machine but can't afford one right now. But I do love a good coffee. We have a couple of small places here that do amazing coffee, nothing better than a great flat white on a cold winters morning.

Thanks for starting the thread Spudz, at least I now know what to look for in a machine.

[hendrixhc]

Originally Posted by prydey

i noticed earlier someone mentioned milk temp should be 80 degrees?? hopefully that was a typo, as it should be 60deg.

Sorry mate but not a typo!

Most machines we set up are in the range of 67 degrees to 92 degrees depending on volume, product type and application.

if you dont have preheated cups a 60 degree milk temp will yield a 45-50 degree coffee which will not be accepted.

Of course the issue is correct temp measuring. i have seen a $15000 auto machine produce a milk temp of 47 degrees in the bottom of a cup and 72 degrees in the top of the same cup!

i was always told that to get the correct temp for milk you should hold the pitcher on the base and heat it til it gets uncomfortably hot!

i have measured this temp and it sits round the 80 degree mark!

I do agree with 92+ degrees being rediculously hot and bordering on cooking the milk. Once again tho it is all subjective and up to the individual!

really the only temp that is "critical" is your extraction temp of the water through the head. should be 86 degrees. On the scale of machines we are looking at tho here you really have no control on that.

In commercial machines it is regulated by an orifice in the top of the head that feeds the water from the heat exchanger.

[Spudz27]

Originally Posted by zx10

Wow, what a great thread. I just learnt so much.

My girl won a Modo Mio pod machine on valentines day so thats what we use at the moment. Would love a proper machine but can't afford one right now. But I do love a good coffee. We have a couple of small places here that do amazing coffee, nothing better than a great flat white on a cold winters morning.

Thanks for starting the thread Spudz, at least I now know what to look for in a machine.

Cheers man. If money is an issue which for most of us it is, just grab one of the little sunbeam ones I am using at the moment. Under $100 and seems to work quite well as you can see. My only gripe with it to be honest is that cups don't really fit under it properly. The latte glasses I bought today I have to have right at the back of the machine so that the pour can just go in as the handle sits lower than the rim of the glass.

[trentski]

Originally Posted by hendrixhc

I was told by a Barista once that people that put patterns on coffee are trying to hide a crappy coffee!

Sounds like he couldn't froth milk properly

[prydey]

Originally Posted by hendrixhc

One other tip on getting the right amount of grind in your basket is to dose it with grinds to a peak in your basket and use you small finger and sweep the grinds off so that it is flat level with the basket rim. At this stage the grinds should be untamped. Then tamp the grinds holding the handle in one hand and pressing the tamp in with the other. you shouldnt use more pressure than just your hands can hold. You see a lot of people tamping on a table top which over pressures the grinds. You should also never fill the basket and tamp add more and tamp! Empty and start again if you have the incorrect amount!

if you want to check your dose, place a 5c coin on top and lock the handle in to the group head. unlock and inspect. the 5c coin should make a very slight impression in to the puck. if its being pushed in further, you have dosed too much, although some machines do respond ok to 'updosing'. if you have no impression in the puck from the coin, you could probably afford to add more coffee in future. take note of how far in your tamp goes. my pullman tamp has rings around the egde to help you keep it level and note how far in it goes.

i agree with the idea that a level basket of untamped grinds is a good starting point, but i could debate all day with you over the other points.

i believe tamping should be done with around 5-15kg of pressure. tamp on some scales until you get a feel for it.

there is no downside to filling your basket in multiple steps.

as mentioned earlier though, the advice you will get on how to be a barista will be pretty varied as there are many different views.

another no no is to tap the side of the basket. all it does is risk fracturing the puck and you'll end up with 'channelling', where the water will just find the path of least resistance. pullman tampers are matched to your basket so there is no grinds to dislodge anyway.

[hendrixhc]

Originally Posted by Spudz27

Cheers man. If money is an issue which for most of us it is, just grab one of the little sunbeam ones I am using at the moment. Under $100 and seems to work quite well as you can see. My only gripe with it to be honest is that cups don't really fit under it properly. The latte glasses I bought today I have to have right at the back of the machine so that the pour can just go in as the handle sits lower than the rim of the glass.

Funny you get the same problem with the glasses on a $8000 Wega!

its only the latest generation machines that they have wised up and made the drink stations lower to accommodate mugs and tall cups.

[Spudz27]

Hendrix on the tamp subject, I think you just saved me lol. The one I made where water would not even run through, I topped up the tamp and on the amount of pressure. I just pat it down compact, I don't use any force. My mrs just finished the sour dough style apple and walnut cake (cake batter that is left out for 10 days adding milk etc and letting it ferment, sounds gross but I ate a whole one last week hahahahaha), so coffee is about to be made.

Maybe a fresh pic of dessert to tempt you all hahahahahaha

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Spudz27

I topped up the tamp and on the amount of pressure. I just pat it down compact, I don't use any force.

personally i would say that is part of why your pours are only 10sec.

[trentski]

Originally Posted by hendrixhc

really the only temp that is "critical" is your extraction temp of the water through the head. should be 86 degrees. On the scale of machines we are looking at tho here you really have no control on that.

I know you work as a coffee machine tech but your numbers differ from what I have learned over the years and it appears it may be due to your quoting figures for commercial superautos rather than manual espresso machines.
You can control the water temp of the espresso on cheaper single boiler machines by temperature surfing, just ask google.

86 degrees is low for espresso, I would expect 92 or there abouts, it will vary by bean. Milk at 80 degrees is scalded, 65 or there abouts is the temp to aim for, use a thermometer if you don't trust your hand. I know bakers that pick up stuff straight out of the oven that would have me reaching for the ice bucket. they wouldn't stop steaming until the milk was on fire using the hand on jug method.

I don't want to start an argument over numbers so think of making espresso as an art rather than a science and use the numbers as a guide to get you close to where you need to be, then use your tastebuds to get the result you like.

[hendrixhc]

Originally Posted by Spudz27

Hendrix on the tamp subject, I think you just saved me lol. The one I made where water would not even run through, I topped up the tamp and on the amount of pressure. I just pat it down compact, I don't use any force. My mrs just finished the sour dough style apple and walnut cake (cake batter that is left out for 10 days adding milk etc and letting it ferment, sounds gross but I ate a whole one last week hahahahaha), so coffee is about to be made.

Maybe a fresh pic of dessert to tempt you all hahahahahaha

My mum used to make a cake called a pet cake. you remove half of the batter and you add flour sugar and yeast each week and it just kept growing back! Tasted great and we always had cake!

yeah tampings a funny thing. we do work for one client who insists on using a single handle and a double handle. usually you only use the double one, as said up further cause theyre more forgiving and give better flavour, but you can only set the grind really to suit one or the other. We have to set the grind to suit the double but when you use the single you cant really tamp the grinds cause it ends up to tight and get no flow. All singles should be binned!!

[Spudz27]

Dessert lol.

Uploaded with ImageShack.us

My coffee had too much foam, my partners was perfect and I even began a swirl pattern in it, until I let a bit of milk slip in and then I was devastated and just poured the rest in hahahaha

I did the whole wiping off with my finger and pressing as firm as I could and still 10secs and that was running the double basket and filling both glasses at once. I noticed that my tamp stick thing supplied with the machine is smaller that the actual basket, by about a full mm. So the edges are not being compacted unless I actually make sure to do it.

[hendrixhc]

The smaller tamp is quite normal. Just give the side of the basket a quick Knock with the tamper to bang the loose grounds down and a light press to flatten them out is acceptable.

Mate to be honest if you served that ^^^^^ up to me i be pretty bluddy happy!

That coffee looks quite decent. Best thing would be to hunt down a cheap grinder and experiment with some different settings!

That would be classed as a latte. 1 shot + 2/3 steamed milk and topped with foam. Cappucino is 1 shot 1/3 hot water, 1/3 foam dusted with choc ( thats one variation anyway). Flat white is 1 shot, 2/3 hot water topped with heated milk no foam. Lungo (long black) is 2/3 hot water with shot floated on top. ristretto first 1/2 of shot only. Macchiato is 1 shot with staining of foam on top. Affogato 1 scoop vanilla ice cream with 1 shot over top ( great in summer with a double shot).

[Spudz27]

Well then I is a latte man because the reason I do not drink coffee (I am now) is because I can't stand the taste of milk mixed with water. Too many times as a scout being served hot milo thinned out with water to make it go round and back in the days of instant coffee etc, you got a cup of watery coffee with a splash of milk. So latte's it is forever.

[Spudz27]

I tell you what the best part of the last 24hrs has been. All this info has made me a much better maker than 24hrs ago. 24hrs ago my coffee was bitter and urk. Last night I made my first good cup, the flavour and aroma was exactly what was written on the bag, even though I am only getting 10second pour, my coffee's are tasting like creme brulee and choc macadamia. The flavour is there. People who I have never made coffee for and asked for espresso but I gave them creme brulee anyway, asked my mrs if I could make coffee more often before she goes in to work and that a person who uses sugar had my creme brulee this morning with no sugar in it and said it was perfect. No sugar was required. Alot of this has been down to all the advice in here and me pouring and pouring to get it right.

[DBourne]

I thought I'd also post my favourite coffee's out and about (whilst this thread is mainly for making coffee at home, it can't hurt to share favourite cafes as well).

So my weekday routine is a small cap from Panini Bar in Sydney Olympic Park. If you work in the area or adjacent areas, I highly recommend you check this place out.

Weekend, I will have a Large moccha (I'm a sweet tooth.. bad) and absolutely love going to Deus Cafe in camperdown (eggs benny are freaking unreal too).

Another favourite cafe is Arm Chair Collective in Mona Vale. Fantastic coffee and amazing pancakes too..

[blueoval]

Ive learned a far bit here myself. Cheers guys. I may modify my technique with a few of these suggestions here to see if I can improve.

Prydey- I might have to pop into your place soon for some tips

[JUZXR8]

I've got a Nespresso machine at home. Best money I have ever spent. Quick, easy and you can get some really interesting flavours with the different pods from Nespresso themselves and even the ones from Woolies.

Usually have a double shot of that for the drive to work in the mornings, and then pick up a strong skinny cappuccino at about 9am from the cafe just near work to top me up!

[The Yeti]

JUXR8 what pods do woolies have

as I said above at work im limited to Nespresso and I havent found a Newpresso pod that I can say Yea thats it thats the one I like, ive had plenty that are yea thats OK but none like I like like

I didnt know woolies stocked pods that suited Nespresso so I am really keen to find out (+ I hate the postage system on nespresso)