Torana rumours getting louder again

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Well ford haven't given a clear indication of a RWD falcon...hence the FWD falcon stories.

If ford put out some vauge stories about a Mid-sized RWD mustang based car and a LWD falcon variants Wheels would latch on to it and call the mid -sizer a cortina..

I would argue that Ford has never done that, especially with the car just under four years away.
That would be like confirming FG in 2004, we know that green light wasn't given until mid 2006
so approval of any design won't be announced until just after the 2014 update..

[ray38l]

the rebirth of the monaro was a a fantasy. people power got it built. alot of people liked it so they built it. all companies care about is making money.
if Ford Australia start putting interesting ideas out in the public people will find something they like.
they have to give something for the media to report about, it doesn't have to be true just give the buying public something to think about.

[HUNTER8]

Originally Posted by ray38l

they have to give something for the media to report about, it doesn't have to be true just give the buying public something to think about.

C'mon surely your not being serious?
Major international company inventing stories so that the media has something to report on?

[flooded one]

i personally will beleve it when i see it.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by ray38l

the rebirth of the monaro was a a fantasy. people power got it built. alot of people liked it so they built it. all companies care about is making money.

Pontiac GTO was successful for Holden, they sold around 40,000 of them in the USA.
Without that business plan and Bob Lutz behind it, Holden wouldn't have built Monaro,
especially with such a dated bodyand so late in the product cycle.

if Ford Australia start putting interesting ideas out in the public people will find something they like.

I would prefer Fprd improved their product supply capacity and give buyers
what they want, dribbling supplies of Focus, Kuga, Mondeo and even Ranger is a joke.

[AC]

Originally Posted by FreddyDUZ747

Has a hint of RX8 in it,not to bad at all.

The only difference is that the RX8 was a good seller, only wrapping up production this year since starting in 2001 because they are having trouble with emissions standards IRRC.
Not to mention the RX8 looks a hell of a lot better than this concept.
The Monaro, the other mentioned rear wheel drive coupe in this thread, also started sales in 2001 and last sold in 2006.

Im with the rest of you, I cant see it going far if Monaro only lasted 5 an a bit years.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Pontiac GTO was successful for Holden, they sold around 40,000 of them in the USA

what defines success though

from my understanding the gto was based on the cv8
the cv8 sold for $60,000 aud and the gto sold for $30,000 us
allowing for exchange rates, that converted to $48,000 aud

there seems to be $12,000 aud missing - and that is before the boat ride, bonnet, grill, lhd conversion etc have been taken into account

assuming my calculations are correct, that is alot of money being lost for the benefit of the mother company

[ray38l]

Originally Posted by AC

The only difference is that the RX8 was a good seller, only wrapping up production this year since starting in 2001 because they are having trouble with emissions standards IRRC.
Not to mention the RX8 looks a hell of a lot better than this concept.
The Monaro, the other mentioned rear wheel drive coupe in this thread, also started sales in 2001 and last sold in 2006.

Im with the rest of you, I cant see it going far if Monaro only lasted 5 an a bit years.

it depends if they make a complete model line up out of it.
the monaro was only ever designed for a niche market.
if Holden do build it here it will be as a replacement for the commodore, so would have a full model line up from the povo pack up to the hsv models. if Holden do that it could work.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

what defines success though

from my understanding the gto was based on the cv8
the cv8 sold for $60,000 aud and the gto sold for $30,000 us
allowing for exchange rates, that converted to $48,000 aud

there seems to be $12,000 aud missing - and that is before the boat ride, bonnet, grill, lhd conversion etc have been taken into account

assuming my calculations are correct, that is alot of money being lost for the benefit of the mother company

Most of the Monaro development costs were done as a part time project by very devoted engineers that made it happen.

Which bit upsets you more, that Holden sold 40,000 vehicles for AUD$48,000 in the US
or that they had the audacity to charge $60,000 for a RHD Monaro?

Just remember that after development costs, the difference in manufacturing an SS versus an Omega is bugger all.

I guarantee you that Holden and Ford are masters at relocating profit through their parts sourcing network and suppliers.

[jpd80]

Kind of on topic, I found a few quotes from TT36 days that shows that Denny Mooney as actively seeking approval to develop Torana's platform.

This article from 2007:

LINK
Smaller than the Zeta-based Holden Commodore, the TT36 was built using hardware from the Pontiac Solstice's Kappa architecture. Holden boss Denny Mooney has made it quite clear a production version could be developed using Kappa components: "We were looking at that hardware as a potential base," he told the Sydney Morning Herald last year, "...to do a sedan off that. That's fundamentally what we'd do."


Scale clay models of the Torana TT36 concept, which was developed under the codename XP54, were shown to GM product czar Bob Lutz, design chief Ed Welburn and then North American engineering vice-president Jim Queen (now vp of global engineering) in February 2004. Mooney wanted GM to okay development of the TT36's "unique lower dominant structure" (i.e. platform), but the program was reportedly put on ice while the company diverted resources to rushing the GMT900 trucks and SUVs into production. Now it appears to have been given the green light.

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Which bit upsets you more, that Holden sold 40,000 vehicles for AUD$48,000 in the US
or that they had the audacity to charge $60,000 for a RHD Monaro?

neither, i don't care how many they did or didn't sell - but success is generally gauged by how much money something makes - not how much it loses

[Chopped]

Holden has admitted (on the radio) that they have no plans to do a Torana and the 130 is still just a concept.
Just media hype (most likely generated by Holden themselves).
So nothing to see here...move on.

"A9X", "XU1" and "SLR5000" have far more emotion attached to them IMO than the name "Torana". Torana may almost sound boganish to some!

Ford need to start the GTHO rumour again just for the free advertising it will generate.....play Holdens game !
(then deny any plans for it and say "don't know where that idea came from")

[Nikked]

in the past 10 years the GTHO should have been through 3 generations ranging from AWD v10's to 400kw supercharged intercooled v8's...according to wheels/motor...

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

neither, i don't care how many they did or didn't sell - but success is generally gauged by how much money something makes - not how much it loses

And surprisingly, Monaro and GTO were sold back in the days when Holden was making money
back when exchange rates made it possible - before VE and the global Financial Crisis too.

[jpd80]

Torana is a fantasy cooked up by Holden Fans in denial of the coming FWD Impala after Commodore - whenever that is..

[gtxb67]

Originally Posted by jpd80

And surprisingly, Monaro and GTO were sold back in the days when Holden was making money
back when exchange rates made it possible - before VE and the global Financial Crisis too.

what part of $12,000 per car do you not understand
plus of course the bonnet, grille etc, which each cost around $1,000,000 from scratch to make and the boat trip to get them there

i am happy to be proved wrong, so if you have any figures on why it sold for so little over there, and had free bonnets, grilles etc. i would be happy to change my view



and maybe holden's care free spending at that time was the reason they had money troubles afterwards

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

what part of $12,000 per car do you not understand

What part of $60,000 being over price do you not understand?

plus of course the bonnet, grille etc, which each cost around $1,000,000 from scratch to make and the boat trip to get them there

Holden were paid by GMNA to develop the intellectual property for the GTO.

i am happy to be proved wrong, so if you have any figures on why it sold for so little over there, and had free bonnets, grilles etc. i would be happy to change my view

Holden were offered a supply contract in US dollars by their parent company,
the responsibility for ordering and selling the cars lay with Pontiac, not Holden
who were paid for every car delivered.

and maybe holden's care free spending at that time was the reason they had money troubles afterwards

Currency exchange.
From 2006, Holden found it very hard to make a profit, i suspect that their own design
relied on other divisions like Buick, Chevrolet and Pontiac signing up but we know that
GMNA renegged on proposal after proposal....

Caprice and Lumina SS in the USA were no brainers but GMNA resisted every overture
from Holden and in turn gave them the lame duck Pontiac G8...

[tranquilized]

Originally Posted by 4.0i OHC

Couldn't agree more. Wheels has well and truly lost their credibility in my view. The never-ending 'FWD Falcon' and 'FPV Taurus' articles simply infuriate me, due to the damage that they cause the Ford brand in the eyes of the public. Wheels is not alone in this activity.

Truth hurts huh? A FWD Falcon (or another badge?) is by far the most likely scenario, almost a certainty, so why wouldn't the media report on it? Its big news!

Originally Posted by 4.0i OHC

The 'smear Ford at all costs' tactic (stolen from the left side of politics no doubt) appears to be working, and I for one am sick of it.
I'm definitely preaching to the choir here, but it absolutely baffles me as to why Ford gets this kind of treatment in the media.

Could you please explain your theory on how left-wing politics relates to your percieved anti Ford bias in the media.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by gtxb67

what part of $12,000 per car do you not understand
plus of course the bonnet, grille etc, which each cost around $1,000,000 from scratch to make and the boat trip to get them there

Well, basing theories of RRP, not unit cost, mark up etc doesn't help, plus GM's cash involvment.


While as ford fans we may laugh at GM-H's export failure's, they have givin it a red hot go. Its a shame GM have mismanaged things, and various global situations have affected things.

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Torana is a fantasy cooked up by Holden Fans in denial of the coming FWD Impala after Commodore - whenever that is..

Do we know for certain it will be an impala? and not a top hat for an alpha based CTS?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Do we know for certain it will be an impala? and not a top hat for an alpha based CTS?

Would be my preference but the Impala plan was proffered on GMinsidenews a while back
by one of their chief news reporters there who claims to have seen the plan..
depends what kind of splash VF Commodore makes in the USA, my guess is that
GM will get enough sales to shaw up Elizabeth and get a shot at Alpha RWD..

[AC]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

Do we know for certain it will be an impala? and not a top hat for an alpha based CTS?

Just to throw a few things around.

They'd want to replace the commodore with a four door RWD equivalent from the US. I dont think it would sell otherwise.

And where would that leave them with V8SC, Unless the COTF fixes that.
Then at least it'd be fun to poke it at the red team, might as well be Camry's racing, open the flood gates for more FWD cars to slap their logo's on COTF and call it a V8 Supercar, LOL

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by AC

Just to throw a few things around.

They'd want to replace the commodore with a four door RWD equivalent from the US. I dont think it would sell otherwise.

And where would that leave them with V8SC, Unless the COTF fixes that.
Then at least it'd be fun to poke it at the red team, might as well be Camry's racing, open the flood gates for more FWD cars to slap their logo's on COTF and call it a V8 Supercar, LOL

Humor me:
1. Cruze returns to Korea for more profit
2. Replaced by small RWD Alpha - Holden based on ATS
3. Commodore replaced by larger Mid sized based on next CTS
4. Holden imports large car like Impala or Caprice...ect...

[jpd80]

Perhaps a beautiful Smallish mid sized Falcon and Mustang duo coupled with Taurus big sedan as the flagship...

We could do a lot worse..

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Humor me:
1. Cruze returns to Korea for more profit
2. Replaced by small RWD Alpha - Holden based on ATS
3. Commodore replaced by larger Mid sized based on next CTS
4. Holden imports large car like Impala or Caprice...ect...

All possible...

[Buntz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Perhaps a beautiful Smallish mid sized Falcon and Mustang duo coupled with Taurus big sedan as the flagship...

We could do a lot worse..

I think Falcon is fine the way it is. Is it a large car? Is it a medium car? Who knows? It's just one of the safest cars built here, and it offers 4cyl, 6cyl, and 8cyl. It's basically Ford's 3 series. But it's not made and designed in America... so it's a not an easy decision.

With some serious dollars thrown at what is there. I'm talking VE money. FoA could make a fantastic vehicle.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Buntz93ED

With some serious dollars thrown at what is there. I'm talking VE money. FoA could make a fantastic vehicle.

Unless Falcon is coupled with another vehicle program within Ford, that
VE type funding won't happen because sales number are now so low..

[trippytaka]

If it gets the nod it will sell its tits off.

FYI I was on HDT facebook the other day and they have started putting together design ideas for an HDT kit. Now that woul dbe cool. Sorry, but it would! A big fat exposed bolt flare kit with a reversed bonnet scoop and SLR/6000 (for the 6L) or 6200 (for the 6.2) would be special.

And again, it would sell its tits off.

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by trippytaka

If it gets the nod it will sell its tits off.

.

Yep, so far, the GT-86/BRZ have all but got the segment to themselves...

It would be a smart move if this and the Future commodore (aplha based in this senario) where built here.

The pictures in the magazine look better then the press shot on the first page, a hatch back might look a bit better...

I doubt a V8 will find its way into it, but a V6 and/or turbo's variants would be a kicker.


Now, if ford could give us a Escort!

[AC]

Originally Posted by Nikked

Now, if ford could give us a Escort!

We can all dream right

But would it not compete against the XR5 Focus & Mondeo ?
For that reason alone it may not happen.