Peter Brock overrated?

[Nikked]

Originally Posted by Steffo

As far as I'm concerned, championship > Bathurst. Its just one race, where the entire championship is a year's worth of consistancy and performance... far more impressive and admirable.

That probally the most impressive thing i've seen you type. The problem is bathust has such a grip on the australian motoring comunity, its the holy grail, and the measure of sucsess, which is annoying, because as you said it one race.

[MethodX]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

He couldn't beat Robbie Francevic in a Volvo...
http://wwwrsphysse.anu.edu.au/~amh11...GpA_racing.htm

That was in 85.
The Commodores hadn't even had one homologation yet.
basically a standard 308.
with the over 5 litre weight penalty.

Brock did win the Sandown round though.

And at bathurst that year with no windcsreens catching the Jaguar.
Great drive.
Pity the timing chain broke.

[OLDFORDNUT]

he's dead for f s , he's a legend and now all the nit pickers surface.you lot who reckon he had a huge advantage are kidding yourselves,it makes me embarrassed when i hear fans of other brands blaming everything but the cleaner for there favourite teams loss,be it in a race car or on the football field.
Pete might not of being exactly perfect but boy he could drive,
R.I.P.Brocky.
You ARE a Legend and were before you died.

[KenLee]

Best touring car driver of all time?... far from it.

It's a "B" at best.

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by MethodX

That was in 85.
The Commodores hadn't even had one homologation yet.
basically a standard 308.
with the over 5 litre weight penalty.

Brock did win the Sandown round though.

And at bathurst that year with no windscreens catching the Jaguar.
Great drive.
Pity the timing chain broke.

Yea for once another manu had better homologation over the general..
Thats not to say the Volvo wasn't on its first homolagation either..

Was that when the fools through a bucket of water over windscreen to try and clean it?? Imagine if they did that now??
The Mustang was in same situation with std weak valve train..

[woteva]

I don't think he's over-rated. Peter Brock is an icon of Australian motorsport and rightly so. When Dick Johnson is gone I'm sure he will get the same respect Peter Brock is getting. Those two are the biggest icons of Australian motorsport imo. Even if you're not a Ford fan it is extremely difficult to not admire DJ's achievements. And same with PB if you're not a Holden fan..

[thexyking]

He was, he was lucky, he was well supported and lucky for him it all came together for him a number of times. His name is on the Bathurst Trophy 9 times for the 1000 (500) and now the trophy is names after him.

But don't forget he was a Collingwood supporter.

[ebxr8240]

Originally Posted by woteva

I don't think he's over-rated. Peter Brock is an icon of Australian motorsport and rightly so. When Dick Johnson is gone I'm sure he will get the same respect Peter Brock is getting. Those two are the biggest icons of Australian motorsport IMO. Even if you're not a Ford fan it is extremely difficult to not admire Djs achievements. And same with PB if you're not a Holden fan..

I wholly agree.. BUT NOT the worlds best...

[GTP290]

In 82, my brother got a hold of PBs home adress, he said why dont we write him a lette, he might send us some stuff, sure enough a couple of weeks later, we had signed posters of his and Larrys Lemans cars, T-shirts of his VH Group 3 and signed posters of the VH Group 3 aswell.
Fast forward to 1990, I got hold of his adress this time(not sure, but prob was the same adress as before). I asked him for a signed poster of his the VN race car, sure enough a couple of weeks later he sent it out and had it signed "cheers Paul from Peter".
Practise at the 87 Grandprix support race, I was an eager 14 year old spectator, Brock was coming on to the East tce bend, someone next to me yells out "Brocky"from the top of his lungs, Brock unbelievably turns his head and looks exactly in my direction,I raise my right arm up in the air, and with out a word of a lie, he done the same thing, he lifted up his left arm just before he was about to negiotiate the left hander, thats a moment I would never forget, I was gobsmacked, what a memory, not many people believe me, but i swear it happened and thats why the man is a legend. His fans where treated like real people and he would always have time for them and its people like us who remember him adoringly.

[Rev28K]

And that is why he is held in such high regard by the public.

He (and his publicity machine) really went all out with the fans. You can criticize the “pure” racing record but his cross over with the fans was incredible. No one of his contemporaries at the time matched it and it’s hard to see anyone now matching it without being accused of copying PB’s example. This is part of the “snake oil salesman” example that Ehast13 alluded to in his original post.

While you can argue with his results and statistics one of the reasons why he was so big was because of how he treated his fans.
I read the “Fall of Brock” book, all the negative stuff about the split/polarizer, heard some the rumors, was aware that he probably had the “public” face that he showed me and the “private” face that was who he really was and he STILL charmed me (and remembered the name of an old friend I was with who he hadn’t seen in probably 15 years).

I was at a Winton ATCC/V8 Supercar race with dad and Brock was well past it (around the time of his 50th) and struggling around behind Lowndes (maybe he had car problems). I was embarrassed for PB that day but dad always yelled out “Go Brocky” when he went past because to him Brock was Australian motor racing and he was wrapt that he was still racing as an old guy.

Contrast that with:

Jim Richards at a Nissan/Datsun Sportscar Owners Club when he was racing the GTR. He looked and behaved like he was having his teeth pulled. Nice enough guy and a great driver but he didn’t seem as good with the public as PB.

Mark Skaife sitting at a autograph signing table at a V8 supercar race when he was racing with Fred Gibson’s Commodores after Winfield pulled the plug. He looked bloody lonely (yes, the team were doing it tough after the ciggie money disappeared). I almost bought a poster out of sympathy for him. Compare that with Brock going back to the mountain after one of his many retirements with a car that didn’t really have a chance.

p.s. XBGS351 would you say that KB was more talented because he had “proved” himself more in F5000 racing, Gold Stars, etc? Yes, I know that the Camaro was knobbled in the Group C era so it is hard to compare directly.

p.p.s. Steeriing with the right arm on the door thing. He did the same thing at Sandown once in practice and looped it at turn 1 (in an A9X?). After that he concentrated a bit more. Sometimes his driving wasn’t “perfect” but for God’s sake “Peter Perfect” was a tag adopted from the Hannah Barbara cartoon “Whacky Racers” by Mike Raymond. It wasn’t anything he adopted.

[Rev28K]

Sorry XBGS351 my post looked a bit more derogatory to KB than I intended.

I readily concede that a lot of our stars try and make it in single seaters (Larry Perkins, Russel Ingall, James Courtney, Craig Lowndes, etc) then fall back in to taxi racing as a default option. There was talk of PB trying out single seaters in the early years but nothing came of it.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by ehast13

It is a shame that people seem to think that Holden shafted Brock. I remember it all very well. Anyone who was involved (Even Harvey or Gow - who picked up the peices) will tell you that Peter threw it away. HSV wasn't even an idea until Peter refused to allow ADR testing and wouldn't meet with Holden or even allow holden to supply an engineer (at no cost to HDT). The polarizer wasn't the big deal Brock made it out to be.

Brock was sending out press releases that were later revealed to be blatent lies and slander. Holden suddenly had no image maker in early 1987 - through no fault of their own.

Interesting Reading
The Rise and Fall of Peter Brock
John harvey interview in AMC
Most 'Wheels' Magazines from late 86 through to early 1988.

After seeing some arguments put forward on this thread, I will humbly concede that Brock is not always overrated. It is poorly researched journalists and mullet wearing holden bogans (with obligatory 'No fear' stickers on their vn wagons) that claim Brocky was the best in the world or best without doubt.

Had everyone had equal machinery and team we may be able to argue more but the fact remains,
Brocky rarely threw away an opportunity to win.
He gave the fans a hero or a villian
He loved racing
And Good on him for that!

I remember reading the whole story, and the arrogance of Brock was just unbelievable. He thought he was an untouchable god, and Holden spent forever trying to help him but he just did whatever he wanted. Finally Holden pulled the plug. What the hell was he thinking, Holden made it clear to him they needed an engineer to check out the HDT mods to make sure they were ADR legal, but Brock just told them he didn't want their interferance. Holden told him he can't release the Director until they have checked it over but he said no and just released the thing anyway. Crazy.

It wasn't until Holden pulled the plug that he realized he'd done wrong, when he told the Wheels editor? or was it John Harvey? "I fkd up didn't I".

[ehast13]

Yeah, you can't deny his devotion to fans. This devotion created incredible loyalty and brand value. His PR machine and his friendly demeanour (at least with fans) meant he was regarded for more than just his racing ability. John Goss was always more populat than MOffat in the seventies because he was a larrikan and pretty friendly and approachable.

Sorry to offend you nicholas, I agree the guy could drive. No one here is blaming anyone else for Moff or Dicky or Lowndes or whoever for not winning more. The simple fact is from 78 thru 84 did anyone have the car, team, tactics or budget to beat Brock at Bathurst?

Dick did it in 81 but if the Commo wasn't damaged do you really think that French could have held off Richo? Would DJR's pit stops match HDT's? I'd like to think that they could have but who knows? It would have been a pretty close race, not because of a lack of talent in DJ but imagine if HRT was the only big budget team with close factory links to get anything homologated anytime and everyone else was building cars under their house, or at local Shell Servo workshop. What if most others only had a maximum of half a dozen full time staff.

To suggest the superiority of the HDT juggernaut had nothing to do with Brock's success is ludicrous and it may be you, Nicholas, who are kidding yourself.

Bathurst champs will always be remembered with more fondness than ATCC winners. This is why GRicey's 86 Bathurst win is more revered than Francevic's 86 ATCC. Or Peter's 79 Bathurst is revered more than Morris' 79 ATCC. Moffat/Bond 1/2 finish at Bthurst 77 more revered than their dominating 1/2 finish in the 77 ATCC.

The best car/team always has a better chance than the next car (especially when relaibility comes into it).

Brocky rarely squandered a chance to win though did he? He wouldn't have had the plum drive or Marlboro money if he couldn't drive.

The original Thread suggested that some people (mainly the media) jump up a down and claim Brock to be the best ever (in the world!). But, while a world class driver, he fell short of that tag because he was (on occasion) dominated by a faster team mate (1988). He had the biggest stick (HDT) but never won an ATCC against decent competition (unlike Bob Morris in 1979 or Dicky in 1981). Yes, 1982, was the championship that slipped away but surely the best driver in the world could win a feww more championships when he is driving the best car.

He will always be in my top ten tin top drivers in the world and never lower than second or third in Australia/NZ but the rose coloured glasses some members of the media (or uninformed members of his adoring public) wear distort things a bit.

[ehast13]

In 85 the Commo's at Bathurst (at least the well funded ones like HDT) had a 4.9 litre engine and a five speed. Drivers had the choice of a 5.0 litre with 4 speed at 1400kg or a 4.9 (4.97 I think) v8 with getrag five speed at 1325kg. They didn'y get the big Valve Heads, Double row timing chain, exhaust mods, Body mods etc until 1986

Grice was upset because HDT was the go between for Holden drivers and Getrag and he couldn't get a five speed from them until very close to Bathurst. HDT said they didn't have any yet (but they actually had twelve!).

Goss' Jag in 85 had a broken seat but Brock would catch up by a second then lose a second or two the next lap. With 3 laps to go, PB wouldn't have caught him as Goss had begun to extend the gap again.

The next day in the paper (I still have it) some were suggesting that Brock parked the car to avoid the embarrasment of finishing second and so his PR machine could say that 'if it weren't for the timing chain, Our Pete would have won! This was a disgusting attempt to bring down a tall poppy like Peter.

I seriously doubt it would have been embarassing to finish second to TWR. It would have been more embarrasing to retire. I guess this is the polar oppisite of the rose coloured glases the media wear now?

[SVR73]

Originally Posted by GTP006

Lowndes is not disappointing to me, he is unlucky which is disappointing. I have never seen a driver that attracts the rough end of a pineapple like he does. Unfortunately now, his best days are behind him and a big chunk of those days were wasted by Ford. What a waste of the best talent this sport has seen since PB.

No persons best days are behind them unless all their god given talent has been brought out and used
if there is still some unused talent like there is in me, then the best days are still out ahead

How has lowndes been a dissappointment - he has won three straight bathursts, three australian championships
what do you want him to do so he is not a dissappointment

[Scott]

Ummm, nice mining. I didn't say CL was disappointing... I said he is NOT disappointing.

And yes, his best is behind him, much as I love the bloke I think it's true. Lucky for us, his best is still the best.

[iliov]

The guy's dead leave him alone.

[buggerlugs]

I was talking to KB today. Done a job for him. Geez he's a nice bloke....

[4.0i_SiX]

overrated? yes

[SVR73]

Originally Posted by GTP006

Ummm, nice mining. I didn't say CL was disappointing... I said he is NOT disappointing.

And yes, his best is behind him, much as I love the bloke I think it's true. Lucky for us, his best is still the best.

That wasn't for you sorry, I quoted the wrong one
He's probably got some unused abilities in other areas, not just racing

[nuthin' fancy]

Originally Posted by GTP006

Lowndes is not disappointing to me, he is unlucky which is disappointing. I have never seen a driver that attracts the rough end of a pineapple like he does. Unfortunately now, his best days are behind him and a big chunk of those days were wasted by Ford. What a waste of the best talent this sport has seen since PB.

I know it is not touring cars but surely Mark Webber wins the prize for a great talent with the worst luck (mainly his choice of teams). He could have gone to Renault instead of Red Bull and Alonso has just won two in a row.

How good was Brock? Good at everything, he could drive, he could nurse a car, he could prepare a car, he could get proper backing at the right time. He was lucky so many times (and I don't say that to denigrate him in any way) by being in the right place at the right time.

He pushed himself a bit too hard after retiring from touring cars, it seems a lack of preparation is what finished him off in the end.

He will be remembered for a very long time and that is a very strong measure of the perception of how good he was.

[DJR-351]

PB was a great peddler the stats prove that...........

Webber, well the family has deep pockets to keep him going, but sorry i subscribe to the saying "a poor tradesman always blames his tools" in the sport of F1 IMO he is only an average driver, how many teams does he need to go through, i dont hear of any of the top teams breaking doors down to sign him up.

If you are an exceptional driver it will show regardless of your ride and the wins/teams will follow...............

[SSbaby]

Brock was definitely not overrated. Brock was untouchable in a well sorted car.

What he wasn't good at was car setup. But he usually drove so well you couldn't half tell his car wasn't quite right.

[philstoj]

Originally Posted by XA351COUPE

PB was a great peddler the stats prove that...........

Webber, well the family has deep pockets to keep him going, but sorry i subscribe to the saying "a poor tradesman always blames his tools" in the sport of F1 IMO he is only an average driver, how many teams does he need to go through, i dont hear of any of the top teams breaking doors down to sign him up.

If you are an exceptional driver it will show regardless of your ride and the wins/teams will follow...............

Yeah so with your logic, Lewis hamilton would win F1 races driving the Force India cars? :

[DJR-351]

Originally Posted by philstoj

Yeah so with your logic, Lewis hamilton would win F1 races driving the Force India cars? :

Quite obviously you missed the point totaly, so i shall try to explain it a bit slower.

IF Webber was a good peddler, the state of his ride would not matter as he would be still be able to come up with some good results relative to the car he has been supplied with.

As SSbaby points out about PB above, a good driver deals with what he has been dealt, then gets on with the job by driving within his and the cars best ability to achive the best result, that is all any team can seriously expect.

The trouble with Webber is he does not treat the cars with the respect they need, in other words they where never going to beat the top guns, but he tried to drive them like they would win every meet.

I probably confused things with my typing "Wins/Teams" it probably should read "Teams/Wins", what i mean is with the recognition of a drivers skills would come the offers of the top teams, then should come the wins.

He may be a good peddler, but until he starts crossing the finish line on a regular basis (read consistant) driving the car he has, we will never know.

Look at the top drivers (read consistant again) in most motorsports these days, they are smooth at what they do, while the egos want the win, they are race savy enough not risk it all and miss out on points, after all one point is better than a DNF, and that is what the big boys want...

Lewis Hamilton in a Force India?? i think he would still have the professional in him to finish the race for his team and himself, regardless of the position, this is something that Webber lacks, team spirit, he is only in it for his own glory, Re: Team Swapping..........

[schnoods]

Lewis Hamilton in a Force India?? i think he would still have the professional in him to finish the race for his team and himself, regardless of the position, this is something that Webber lacks, team spirit, he is only in it for his own glory, Re: Team Swapping..........

Its all about selling yourself to the highest bidder and giving the crowds what the want.

Finishing consistently 20th place wont be doing your career or sponsors any good. I do agree however that Mark Webber does have a lack of mechanical sympathy, but his reputation is now riding on his potential to win. Everyone remembers him placing 5th on debut in a Minardi. Im sure if he was behind a Ferrari they outcome would've been better..

Hamilton is a Smart driver, but he is still quick and flamboyant, thats what sells for the sponsors and wins races.

After all people wanna back winners and not losers. Even being quick enough to win and not winning can be enough to earn your place. Like Whincup and Lowndes the last couple of years.

[Loosecannon]

overrated ??

YES

Holden had more $$$ back in the day than all other teams , this helped HDT cross the line MANY times

Not enough credit given to Perkins, Harvey,Richards nor his brother Phil , and the team for their part in many bathurst wins, if his car stopped, he would just jump in another car that HDT had running in the race,

many drivers could of done the job, if they had his team and backing

[prydey]

Originally Posted by schnoods

Its all about selling yourself to the highest bidder and giving the crowds what the want.

Finishing consistently 20th place wont be doing your career or sponsors any good. I do agree however that Mark Webber does have a lack of mechanical sympathy, but his reputation is now riding on his potential to win. Everyone remembers him placing 5th on debut in a Minardi. Im sure if he was behind a Ferrari they outcome would've been better..

Hamilton is a Smart driver, but he is still quick and flamboyant, thats what sells for the sponsors and wins races.

After all people wanna back winners and not losers. Even being quick enough to win and not winning can be enough to earn your place. Like Whincup and Lowndes the last couple of years.

this is going a fair bit off topic but i would have to 100% disagree here.

hamilton is NOT a smart driver. if he were a smart driver he would have already wrapped up the 08 c/ship and quite possibly would have the 07 one as well. Luckily for him, ferrari are doing their best to throw it away as well. throughout his career so far he gets himself in very good positions and then makes dumb, young inexperienced decisions.

as for webber - you guys are obviously avid f1 fans. I'm tipping you here on the news or read the paper the day after and see that webber dnf'd again and assume it was driver error. do you realise how much telemetry is in these cars. if he was driving them in such a way that causes a lot of these failures, i don't think he'd still be in the game after 6 or so years. he may never be a race winner, and will probably never be a champion but he absolutely deserves his spot in the field.

as for P.Brock, anyone can look good when they are given the best car. longhurst, bright and kelly all had wins when driving for hrt. in their own right they are all good drivers but when the equipment is not up to the standard of the front guys they no longer feature on the podium. Brock nearly always had teh best car in the field and most definitely the best backed car in the field.

having said that, he made the most of his opprtunities but if you measure his success by c/ship wins he is well down the order. Bathurst, as hard as it is to win there, is just 1 race. winning 1 race 9 times does not a champion make. some of his victories, esp the winning margins, can't be compared to today as there were no safety cars etc.

D.Johnson is as big an icon of australian motorsport and j.richards is a much more accomplished race car driver.

i may be repeating some comments as i admit, i haven't read the thread through, i was mainly commenting on the F1 comments.

[bathurst77]

It is true that it was easier to win back then, most years there were only half a dozen good cars and maybe 2 or 3 "really good cars", so the competition wasnt as strong. most years there were 1 or 2 cars to beat and the rest were ther to pick up the places. Brock had teh best team and backing and equipment.

However, the best drivers tend to attract the best engineers, best backers, best team etc. Brock had the best of them. They were there for a reason.

[ehast13]

no one disputes peter was quick. but not the best ever. He certainly had the Holden PR machine behind him. Even when he weirded out in the 80's he still had the support of mobil, triple m, bridgestone etc.

He couldn't match his team mate in 88, but at the height of his powers (70's through to early 90's) he beat most others.

He was a pretty well rounded package.