Tune worth it - Page 3

Barryxr6turbo · 29-11-2010, 01:56 PM

It just seems like an awful lot of coin that you will be spending for what is only really a small adjustment to your tune.

How does your car drive now? Do you notice it overfueling at half throttle and the like?

blueoval · 29-11-2010, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barryxr6turbo

It just seems like an awful lot of coin that you will be spending for what is only really a small adjustment to your tune.

How does your car drive now? Do you notice it overfueling at half throttle and the like?

Car drives good when freshly reflashed. After a week, I get a flat spot between 1800-2500rpm before the car gets up and boogeys. Ash said that this is due to the fuel parameters when its gets flashed gets wiped, but after a while the ecu relearns and sets fuel parameters up based on my driving style and throws the tune out a little.

Occasionally at idle at the lights the car sometimes feels like its flooded and going to stall for a split second. It doesnt happen always but it does happen.

I can also smell fuel when I start the car after a short time stopped. So I think there is room for improvement as you say with tuning, But yes, a pricey option for little gain compared to cost, hence the option of looking to go bigger exhaust to make more use of the change in tuning software.

blueoval · 29-11-2010, 02:10 PM

Just got this email back from Ash after I asked him the benefits of going Sniper over SCT with regards to my setup.

Hi Shav, Sniper is exactly the same as SCT , but from another US company.
It uses the original PCM as does SCT and can use a flash box Similar to SCT.
Sniper software has the ability to be able to calibrate a 2 BAR sensor , BUT SCT DOES NOT.

Functionality and control is very much the same between the two products.

Other things that Sniper can offer are PCM flash only without a box , but you only get one tune , or with the box at extra cost for the box you get up to SIX tune slots.
Of course each tune has to be performed and paid for.

Just to reconfirm SCT cannot be scaled for a 2 BAR sensor at present.

Neither system can be guaranteed to pass engineering, but both are the best option with an Engineers report and emissions testing.
You need to be aware that Engineering and emissions testing is quite costly and time consuming.

Barryxr6turbo · 29-11-2010, 03:53 PM

It can be done. Dan's had a 2 bar running with an x3 flash tuner tuned at bullet performance.

It works with a j3 too.

At least he is confident about the sniper tune. What is the price difference between having a sniper box and not?

blueoval · 29-11-2010, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barryxr6turbo

It can be done. Dan's had a 2 bar running with an x3 flash tuner tuned at bullet performance.

It works with a j3 too.

At least he is confident about the sniper tune. What is the price difference between having a sniper box and not?

I was told Sniper box = $500
SCT Xcal3 box = $700+
2 Bar map sensor = $200 or there abouts regardless of tuning software

then add tuning time.

He said I could go without the box altogether and just fit one 1 custom tune and have a dedicated tune for 1 type of fuel. Thats a saving of $500 if I didnt go for the sniper box. But I would be forced to use 1 type of fuel no matter what. It possible to go this way and not bother with E85. Just do the exhaust, and 1 tune with 98ron fuel. Could save a few dollars there. Power would be not much more than what I have now. Maybe another 10-12rwkw on 98 fuel only and bigger exhaust.

Dave_Obsession · 29-11-2010, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueoval

He said I could go without the box altogether and just fit one 1 custom tune and have a dedicated tune for 1 type of fuel. Thats a saving of $500 if I didnt go for the sniper box. But I would be forced to use 1 type of fuel no matter what. It possible to go this way and not bother with E85. Just do the exhaust, and 1 tune with 98ron fuel. Could save a few dollars there. Power would be not much more than what I have now. Maybe another 10-12rwkw on 98 fuel only and bigger exhaust.

I know if I was in your position, I'd be doing that...remember it's not about the number, it's how it feels...

blueoval · 29-11-2010, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave93761

I know if I was in your position, I'd be doing that...remember it's not about the number, it's how it feels...

Thanks Dave. It's something I'm considering thats for sure. But its a hard one to think about. If I put it this way:

Sniper box = $500
Custom Tune = ~$1000
3" Exhaust = ~$800
2 Bar map sensor = ~$200

Thats $2500 just there, and thats just for 1 tune only remember.

OR

Custom tune with sniper software = ~$1000
3" Exhaust = ~$800
2 Bar Map Sensor = ~$200

Total - $2000 with one tune.

If I based it on just a 98ron tune. The outcome will be the same power wise. But the flexibility will be lost without the box and other tunes loaded on.

Care to comment?

Dave_Obsession · 29-11-2010, 05:19 PM

Does it cost more for additional sniper 'tunes' (I believe they are referred to as 'bullets')? If so, how much?

robbyj · 29-11-2010, 05:44 PM

I emailed ash aswell shav, this is what has been said thus far
me: blue
ash: red

Hi,
i am looking at getting a tune for my car.
It is an AU falcon series 1 auto strait 6.

I currently have hurricane extractors, high flow cat, 2.5" exhaust and have modified the CAI with a high flow panel filter and larger intake snorkel.

I'm am looking at getting a tune as i do not want to upgrade the car in such a way that will ruin the fairly good fuel economy. Such as a cam upgrade etc. i get (500-700kms a tank with 91)

My question is what are my options.

I believe there are two main methods, the xcal 3 flash tuner or a J3 chip.

I know a tune with the xcal device has to be 're-flashed' every so often to restore the tune,
Does the ecu learn around the chip?
Can you have multiple tunes on the chip like the xcal, as i would like to be able to switch between say the stock tune for 91 and
the 'performance' tune on 98

I would like to see around a 10 rwkw increase and in increase in torque with a 98 fuel tune, do you believe this could be made?

and roughly what are the associated costs with any of the options available to me

Thanks,
Robert

Hi Robert, thank you for your enquiry.

You have several options SCT , Sniper , or J3 .

If you ever consider boosted (turbo , supercharged) modifications to your vehicle , at present the only available option is Sniper.

With Sniper we can flash direct to the PCM and with that you only have the one map option.

Sniper also offer a Flash box similar to SCT and you can have several tunes in this.

Please note however that the Dyno time for each type of tune is additional for each tune.

J3 port programming can be one to four tunes , but is not the preferred option for AU onwards , more suited to EA-EL.

SCT cannot at present do any boosted operation with correct control.

SCT only offer Xcal 3 with custom tunes.

Any of the tuning option if correctly tuned would not need to be reflashed.

The only exception to this would be if a Ford dealer was to flash in an update file.

Costs for any of the above start at approximately $1300.00 drive in drive out fully tuned.(Sniper direct flash to PCM).

The options from there are adding Flash boxes and different tunes.

Sniper flash box ADD $495.00

Additional tunes eg 91 - 98 Premium unleaded ADD $540.00 EA TUNE.

Example Sniper with Flash box and two tunes 91 and 98 total cost approximately. $2335.00 Drive in drive out.

Tuning without camshaft modification will only offer limited results in power increases but will not adversely affect fuel economy (will probably improve it slightly).

However if you use the new found power enthusiastically you will not get good economy as you would expect.

We can also offer supercharged or turbo options if required.

Please contact us if we can be of any further assistance or if you have any other questions.

Thank you.

I am still under the impression the ECU learns around a tune??
So the sniper flash to the PCM as ash put it, without a box to keep the tune stored.. would the ecu slowly revert back to the stock tune????

robbyj · 29-11-2010, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave93761

Does it cost more for additional sniper 'tunes' (I believe they are referred to as 'bullets')? If so, how much?

As ash said there is a box similar to the SCT xcal flash box, where multiple tunes can be stored. And for each additional tune, it requires more dyno time hence more cost

robbyj · 29-11-2010, 05:52 PM

My reply to ash

Thanks ashley for the reply.

I doubt i will ever boost the car. So that doesnt need to be considered.
From the information you have given me i reckon a 98 fuel sniper tune flashed strait to the PCM would best suit what im after.

One query i have though if that tune is ever lost (such as ford dealer flashed over it) is there any way to recover the tune without the flash box?

can the files be stored on say a flash drive (USB)?

Barryxr6turbo · 29-11-2010, 07:12 PM

$1200 for a tune when your current tune is nearly spot on sounds a bit ridiculous. It sounds like its $1200 for a PULP tune and extra for an E85 tune?

If your car runs fine on boost now then you don't need a 2 bar map sensor which means you dont need a full retune.

I dont think stepping up half an inch in exhaust size will make any difference to your tune either.

If it was me I'd get the exhaust done, put it on the dyno see how it goes.

If it runs any leaner (I dont reckon it will) then send your ECU to Jason at TI performance along with the dyno graph with the AFR's on it and get your current tune put onto the J3 chip and adjusted to suit the new dyno graph for $190.

Have you asked Bruce what he thinks?

ps. No I dont sell J3 chips and I dont tune them for a living.

pps if he says he can tune a J3 and wont tune it, its probably because he makes more cash off the sniper.

blueoval · 29-11-2010, 07:29 PM

Rob, I believe the Sniper tune, setup properly as Ash puts it will not lose its tune over time. As long as all the parameter's to tune it correctly are met, your tune should stay on there indefinitely without the ecu relearning bad habits due to driving style. Ash should also have your tune on file should he need to adjust something or you make further modifications to suit.

Unlike my setup, with boost, certain parameter's in the rev range and at certain points of boost, there is one setting up to 3psi of boost pressure. Once the engine increases boost over 3psi, the signal clamp cuts in to stop the engine going to limp mode, but the parameters for tune arent individualized at this boost pressure, meaning that the parameters used at 1-3psi are also used at 4- what ever psi, but changes are made only to add more fuel instead of trimming and optimizing fuel the way it needs at high boost levels. I hope that makes sense and I have it the right way around.

To try and put it simpler:

1-3lbs of boost = fuel mixtures/timing etc for this range of boost.
4-max boost = using same base settings as 1-3 but adding more fuel to compensate.

Doing it this way works, but its not optimum. You are effectively adding more fuel to the engine to make it rev and make power, rather than adding fuel as it needs to run more efficiently while still making power. If I have this correct, this is what the Ford ecu's are restricted to with the SCT tuner with boost only.

The symptoms of this are usually excessively washed bores with too much fuel, fouled plugs due to too much fuel at higher rpms, and more than necessary excessive engine wear.

What I need is the 2 bar map sensor, possibly bigger fuel pressure reg, and the sniper setup which accepts the 2 bar map sensor properly. That way when tuning happens, mixtures can be trimmed and made more efficient over 3lbs of boost and at higher revs.

I hope I have explained this right. If anyone here sees need for correction of this explanation, please feel free to address it.

blueoval · 29-11-2010, 07:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barryxr6turbo

$1200 for a tune when your current tune is nearly spot on sounds a bit ridiculous. It sounds like its $1200 for a PULP tune and extra for an E85 tune?

If your car runs fine on boost now then you don't need a 2 bar map sensor which means you dont need a full retune.

I dont think stepping up half an inch in exhaust size will make any difference to your tune either.

If it was me I'd get the exhaust done, put it on the dyno see how it goes.

If it runs any leaner (I dont reckon it will) then send your ECU to Jason at TI performance along with the dyno graph with the AFR's on it and get your current tune put onto the J3 chip and adjusted to suit the new dyno graph for $190.

Have you asked Bruce what he thinks?

ps. No I dont sell J3 chips and I dont tune them for a living.

pps if he says he can tune a J3 and wont tune it, its probably because he makes more cash off the sniper.

What you say has merit Barry. And I am happy to look at all options.

I dont want to spend any extra cash if I dont need to.

From what Ash has told me, he cannot 'pull off' a tune from the SCT box. But I know it can be done via the J3 EEC reader thing.

http://www.tiperformance.com.au/buy.html

I think Ash's main issue is that he doesn't know it has already been done with a boosted application like Dan's car for instance. Perhaps a little apprehensive about trying something different, I dont know.

I have yet to speak to Bruce about this option, but I fear his response will be similar.

Im not saying it cannot be done, just that these tuners have not seen it done, nor are willing to try it unless its been proven otherwise.

Barryxr6turbo · 29-11-2010, 07:43 PM

Who tuned the car as it is?

Do you have any dyno graphs? What do the AFR's look like?

If the AFR's are good across the rpm range then you dont need to worry about any of those problems you mentioned.

ratter · 29-11-2010, 07:55 PM

Fuel maps are not the main problem, spark maps are the problem.

blueoval · 29-11-2010, 08:13 PM

I do have a dyno run. I will post up the scan if I can find the printout.

blueoval · 29-11-2010, 08:47 PM

Below is my last dyno print out done in shoot out mode.

Barryxr6turbo · 29-11-2010, 08:52 PM

Have you got one with AFR's?

blueoval · 29-11-2010, 08:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barryxr6turbo

Have you got one with AFR's?

I was never given one with AFR's but I do have an older dyno print out from a previous tune, although that wont be current.

blueoval · 30-11-2010, 12:52 PM

Ive been speaking to galapogas (Jason) and Dansedgli (Dan) on Ford mods about the J3.

Jason is confident a tune can be established with the J3 for my car, but he needs AFR's and a full list of mods that has been done. I will probably need to do a baseline dyno run to see where everything is at and provide me with the data needed to sort the J3 tune.

Dan has offered to send me the binary from the tune he had in his AU 6 supercharged ute prior to going turbo. His setup was nearly identical to mine except he was running bigger injectors. So there may be some room to play with there and adapt it to my car.

So far these fellas have been supremely helpful in offering advice and experience on the matter.

I am still waiting on Ash to see if he is prepared to tune my car on J3 or not, or if I just bite the bullet, remove my ecu and send it to Jason to be custom tuned for J3 after a baseline dyno run.

Jason mentioned I need to buy a custom pre-programmed J3 and send the ecu from the car in for a custom tune to be done. Cost is $190 for the chip and $100 for custom tune plus postage either way.

If I did not want to remove my ecu, I could buy an EEC reader ($40) and programmer ($120) plus the custom chip ($190) and dump the tune on that, send it to Jason and he can tune the J3 without the need of the ecu, then I would just install the J3 based on what Jason has provided.

Otherwise he suggested to buy a full house kit ($595) and have a go at tuning it myself.

Im not sure what is best. All I know is I need a baseline tune first to get the data required.

blueoval · 01-12-2010, 10:27 AM

This is the latest conversation I have had with Ash regarding J3 for my setup. My conversation in Blue, Ash's reply in red.

Hey Ash,

Ive been speaking to a bloke in VIC who has an AU supercharged 6 cyl ute that has been successfully tuned with a J3 chip. He integrated a 2 bar map sensor to avoid fuel cut as well and was happily driving the car that way prior to converting the car to turbo.

He tells me the only hard part is that the tunerpro software lists the spark and fuel tables as though they are from 0 in hg to 30.5 in hg as opposed to 0 in hg to 20psi or whatever so he found its easiest to put the NA map values in and let the datalogger tell you which cells to tune.

Other than that he just put the stock NA map parameters into the datalogger, went for a drive and tuned the spots where the AFR’s were out and adjust timing to suit.

I have spoken to a rep of T.I. Performance and he says there is support for my car and ecu. There isn’t a lot of people who have tried this approach I know but I am prepared to give it a shot if you are prepared to have a go at tuning the car this way.

I realize this in unorthodox to tune a car this way and perhaps against what most tuners would consider ethical, but would you be willing to give it a shot?

Shav

Hi Shav, I have had a look at the Tuner pro software and files for your vehicle (From TI Performance) and there is not enough information or parameters listed to perform a correct tune with the modifications to our vehicle.
Also I believe that some of the data in the software is incorrect.
The Tuning address files for these are reverse engineered by hobby tuners in their spare time and as such many of them are not very accurate.
We would spend many many hours of time trying to work out and correct the files to get them to work correctly.(very costly)

I still strongly believe that Sniper or SCT are the best options as these professional company’s spend thousands of dollars and may hours researching and creating the correct Tuning definition files.(something that you or I cannot afford to do).

As I have stated before J3 does not support many tuning parameters for this PCM were as Sniper and SCT are far more comprehensive.

If you really want to try with J3 I will look at it for you but this may well end up very expensive with not very good results.

Also the J3 card is an add on that hangs out of the back of the ECU and would not be looked on favourably by the Engineers or Road Transport Department as in their opinion it could fail or be tampered with upsetting the tune calibration and rendering the vehicle non compliant after the engineering inspection.

I would be interested in talking to the Tuner of the AU Ute that you mentioned as he may have worked out more and accurate tuning parameters and he may be willing to share the information.

I like Ash, and the way he is willing to approach things professionally, but I can tell he isn't willing to take any risks to try something new and is perhaps covering himself should I be willing to be a guinea pig for this option.

Comments or suggestions?

Stattic · 01-12-2010, 02:59 PM

Shav, you car and yourself are awesome. That is all I wanna say.

blueoval · 01-12-2010, 03:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stattic

Shav, you car and yourself are awesome. That is all I wanna say.

um....thanks mate. Not sure what that is suppose to elude to, but thanks.

Dave_Obsession · 01-12-2010, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueoval

um....thanks mate. Not sure what that is suppose to elude to, but thanks.

lol sounds like you've always got a place to stay in Melbourne's western suburbs

blueoval · 01-12-2010, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave93761

lol sounds like you've always got a place to stay in Melbourne's western suburbs

Nothing sus.

robbyj · 01-12-2010, 05:48 PM

I know your keen for the J3 shav so maybe have a chat to another local (ish) tuner that would be willing to have a crack.

As it sounds Ash isnt very keen on the idea and states it could get costly.

Either that or go the sniper tune with the sniper box, so u can have your multiple tunes

blueoval · 01-12-2010, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bobuleh

I know your keen for the J3 shav so maybe have a chat to another local (ish) tuner that would be willing to have a crack.

As it sounds Ash isnt very keen on the idea and states it could get costly.

Either that or go the sniper tune with the sniper box, so u can have your multiple tunes

Thanks Rob, that is basically the conclusion I came to also.

That being said, I spotted an unlocked xcal3 for sale on the forums cheap so I will see if that eventuates. If I am lucky enough to get that and fork out for it to be unlocked, I will use it accordingly. Failing that I am going to look at what Bruce can do with the J3 as well as my usual mechanic as he has people he knows that can assist.

Again, this is not desperate times, but eventually if I want the car to progress or if there is some fine tuning required, I will need to upgrade either way regardless. But at the same time I want to do it as cost effectively as possible.

I am considering the J3 due to cost savings mainly, but I dont want to risk tuning problems if what Ash says is correct.

robbyj · 01-12-2010, 05:59 PM

Yea, your in no rush so just keep looking into it. Thats what im doing at the moment, while i wait for body kit progression

blueoval · 01-12-2010, 06:32 PM

I've held off with regards to the baseline tune. There is a crap load of information I have to process before I make a decision, I dont want to make a decision based on being hasty, so I will wait for a week or 2 before I make my choice on which software I'm going with.