New Holden adds-sign of desperation? - Page 3

ltd · 02-05-2008, 01:09 PM

Wally, you avoid questions and instead replace it with twaddle. You don't seem to have any sense of literal comprehension and gloss over salient points with cliche's such as "You're emotional". You have no objectivity whatsoever and decrying the FG on a ford forum for the sake of the oppositions car is an insurmountable challenge that only the intellectually bereft would attempt. Good luck, party on.

BadMac · 02-05-2008, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

Seems to me you are posting with emotion rather than fact. I'm sure most of the posters here haven't seen an FG either, but it doesn't stop many of them promoting it or showing dissapointment. I wouldn't mind betting some have even bought from the brochure too. And good on them, I'm not a self appointed arbitirator on what's good for the individual.

I was an LS1 owner and I never had an ounce of problems with the engine, tranny or car for that matter. So when you make broad sweeping statements it should be backed up with statistical data. Subscribing to the one bad apple spoiling the whole barrel is not valid.

If the VE is so similar to the BF why all the fuss and bother?

If your logic says " So firstly your criticism of the Berlina tries to set up your impartiality, when really you have no interest in the Berlina nor any base model, you are really trying to <b>espouse</b> the virtues of a more upmarket commodore like a HSV opposed to an FG."., then you will have no problem when I say I really, truelly, honest injun don't give a rats about branding. I'm so ambivalent I'm prepared to concede the V8 Holden is much better than the six, in my opinion....and that's all it is; an opinion based on nothing more than my observations. But seeing as you obviously think that the whole model lineup should bespeak of the individual model, then you won't mind me comparing the base poverty pak FG to the top of the range VE?

In repsonse to your probing, but I suspect rhetoriacl query "from EA onwards ford had flared wheelarches and Holden had none in the VN so what does that tell you?", it tells me that the EA had flared guards and the VN didn't, but it obviously means something to you........the post EAs were a retrograde step? I don't think the pronounced guards of the VE are really that much a cousin to the EA though... or are they? If so I repeat my observation on the tirade of posts when the VE was released decrying said guards.

Don't feed him. Let it go and move on with a smile on your face knowing you have the best option for yourself at present and Ford are about to give you a reason to think about changing again. Life is so much better when you don't follow any particular religion, it allows you to sample the best of all the religions, rather than constantly having to defend and trying to convert others to yours.

EgoFG · 02-05-2008, 01:25 PM

I just double checked what Forum I was in.

Ford Forums.

If you come fishing in this pond with holden bait - ya gotta expect a bite.

By all means become defensive offensive and emotional, and watch others respond in kind.

But in this pond the Ford will always win - it IS an alternate reality

Wally · 02-05-2008, 01:32 PM

So now I'm intellectually bereft, at which point I'm supposed to object and prove my credentials or respond with a similar act of imnpolitness no doubt.

What can I type that will make you feel better? Although I haven't seen one in the flesh the FG is far superior to anything else on the market? Although my opinions are based on my collective thoughts, they are wrongs and the FG is far superior and better looking than anything else on the market? I have been a bad boy and didn't seek permission form the members to air my observations? I have betrayed all that is good and honest by purchasing the embodiment of eveil that manifest itself as the VE Holden? I have no right to be a member of this forum, even though I have owned several models and am currently doing up an XP coupe, even posting the progress pics when I could just hoarde the ideas?

What exactly is it that you bring to the table that is productive? Tell me a bit about yourself and how you actually strip and build ford engines, gearboxes, diffs, suspensions, etc in youyr spare time like I do. Not send then to a mechanic, but actually do the nachining, assembly and commissioing. Tell me how many cars outside the Ford family you have similarlly completely overhauled like I have to give you such a focused perspective that Ford product is the be all and end all. Tell me how my thrity odd years of buying and usuing $1000 micrometers, bore gauges, lathes, milling machines, electrical instuments etc makes me less inclined to make correct observations than you.

You remind me of a fellow on another forum who took one of the old codgers to task over his auto knowledge. He like you knew everything that sprang from the fountain of goodness and let the old fart know it in no uncertain terms, calling him for being an intellectural retard when it came to ECU's. Patiently the venerable fossil waited then let the upstart in on the facts... he was the bloke who developed the OBD1 computer for GM, he was one of the guys who developed the computer systems for the Apollo projects. So when you resort to name calling I feel I'm in good company sitting back reading your diatribe.

Wally · 02-05-2008, 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadMac

Don't feed him. Let it go and move on with a smile on your face knowing you have the best option for yourself at present and Ford are about to give you a reason to think about changing again. Life is so much better when you don't follow any particular religion, it allows you to sample the best of all the religions, rather than constantly having to defend and trying to convert others to yours.

Thank goodness there are some adults on this forum.

vanman_75 · 02-05-2008, 02:10 PM

holden have a much bigger following regardless off any facts of 'better car ' 'all australian ' bla bla bla . their adds work for them .we should take notice of that and get some market back. most on this forum are diehard ford ,but i can appreciate how good a holden is ,and not buy 1 ! . austalia does need both h & f so we get a better car, if there was only 1 they got nothing to compete and better their product. both cars are awesome bfyb we should be greatfull .

Need_a_V8 · 02-05-2008, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtp 2003

Well they would be worried, because Ford have a superior product its cheaper, handles better, has a better gearbox, more powerfull and more economical and safer, no reasons to worry

:

You honestly think that if holden are worried, all they have are adverts? They have DOD this year for the V8, the 6L in the base holdens can easily make 300kw without being pushed and over 330 for the HSV LS3. They have direct injection engines ready with includes large fuel savings and power upgrades. The VF is right around the corner (first quarter 09 at the latest) and with it there goes the 4 speed auto, omega and berlina get 5 speed. There is alot left in holdens arsenal, so I really don't think some adverts are a sign of worry just yet.

Ford need to push 3 things! 1.) The 6 speed automatic transmission which makes a mockery of the Holden auto's. 2.) Fuel economy (before the Holden goes direct injection) 3.) The turbo 6 (the ford V8 is now obsolete as far as I am concerned until we get the new BOSS/Hurricane).

ltd · 02-05-2008, 02:37 PM

Wally, reread your post and see if you can't find the hypocrisy of your assertions.
You're judging others on what they haven't seen, yet you have made generalised statements based on what you haven't seen.
This is hypocrisy, this is an unsteady foundation to base an argument.
As for your knowledge of engineering, I don't believe I have criticised you for that.
I don't particularly care for your knowledge in engineering, to me it isn't relevant to this debate. You're doing up an XP, good for you. How does this relate to the FG? It doesn't. You assume I know less than you on many fronts and frankly, that is in itself insulting. If you knew what I do and the wealth of specific knowledge I need to do it you may be less hasty to critique.

On your purchase, if you like your 6 litre then that's excellent. If you don't like the FG then that's excellent too. But there are a lot of excited people who don't need their objectivity questioned by someone who within the anonymity of the internet indirectly derides what they have deemed as a wise purchase. Furthermore whilst it is implied that yours is only an opinion there is an absolution in your writing style. This is what I interpret as criticism, and no, I won't stand for blind criticism of Ford when you have even admitted to not seeing it in the flesh. That is why I took issue with your post, and take issue with others who post similarly. Criticism yes, baseless criticism no.
You'll note that I have not criticised anything Holden (such a the 6 litre) without experiencing it or without readily and quantifiably available facts. I did criticise the LS1 because I had one car but went through 3 engines in less than 45K.
Finally I won't defend the indefensible, but will question those of an opinion different to mine that isn't one of experience or exposure to the facts.

burnz · 02-05-2008, 03:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BadMac

Don't feed him. Let it go and move on with a smile on your face knowing you have the best option for yourself at present and Ford are about to give you a reason to think about changing again. Life is so much better when you don't follow any particular religion, it allows you to sample the best of all the religions, rather than constantly having to defend and trying to convert others to yours.

that true, but a lot of miss info and half truth's from ltd.
but i suppose it make's him fell better.

Rodp · 02-05-2008, 04:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wally

Seems to me you are posting with emotion rather than fact. I'm sure most of the posters here haven't seen an FG either, but it doesn't stop many of them promoting it or showing dissapointment. I wouldn't mind betting some have even bought from the brochure too. And good on them, I'm not a self appointed arbitirator on what's good for the individual.

I saw a number of them today, Lane Cove Rd probably on their way to Brad Garlick. Was beside them for a good 5 minutes before they turned off on to Victoria Rd.

I have to concur that, at least from the outside, they don't look all that different. The cars were moving but that certainly doesn't constitute seeing one being driven so maybe they'll look a tad different on the road.

I expected more of a cosmetic upgrade to be honest. I get bored of the shape of my car after awhile and want something that looks new when it's time to upgrade. I don't think the FG pulls that off. I still love the look of my BA but if I was to get a BF and keep it for 3-4 years I'd certainly be bored with the look at that stage and it's quite likely that I would also be bored of the FG.

I live close to Peter Warrens so I'll have a closer look on the weekend. If I was buying a new one, I certainly would be concerned about getting bored of the shape a lot quicker than when I first purchased my BA.

stevz · 02-05-2008, 04:44 PM

LTD, spare us all your usual crap, will you?
You are nothing but a hypocrite that manipulates and twists facts and fantasies to suit your own personal argument.
Using the LS1 oil consumption issues as an argument in a VE related discussion just reeks of desperation to me, considering the LS1 engine ceased production before the VE was even released.

ltd · 02-05-2008, 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by burnz

that true, but a lot of miss info and half truth's from ltd.
but i suppose it make's him fell better.

Is that so?
Care to back that up before commencing your spurious accusations?

ltd · 02-05-2008, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevz

LTD, spare us all your usual crap, will you?
You are nothing but a hypocrite that manipulates and twists facts and fantasies to suit your own personal argument.
Using the LS1 oil consumption issues as an argument in a VE related discussion just reeks of desperation to me, considering the LS1 engine ceased production before the VE was even released.

Ahh, stevz nice to see you enter the fray.. Again.
Why is it you always rear your ugly head whenever there is a difference of opinion as though you are the great moral authority? Or are you just an internet tough guy?
You totally missed the point on the LS1 too, so who's twisting the facts?

NC1183 · 02-05-2008, 08:01 PM

I thought this thread was about Holdens new advertising campagin not which car was better. There have been plenty of other threads on this over the last couple of months.

Back on topic, the add that says "nothing says Holden more then the Commadore" makes me laugh. The Commadore is the only thing designed and made by Holden, everything else is imported from another GM brand, Captiva and Epica are Daewoo's, Astra and Barina are Opel/Vuxall, Rodeo is Isuzu.

GTP290 · 02-05-2008, 09:07 PM

Two big facts I find suprising that most people dont know, is that the FX Holden was designed in Detroit and not in Australia as most people think. The second fact is that it was the Ford motor company that manufactured the first ute. Why is it that the Holden ute is seen as an iconic aussie car and not a Ford ute, especially as Ford never ditched the ute as Holden did for nearly a decade.

VZKOOP · 03-05-2008, 12:03 AM

Great thread........
There seemed to be a slight variance in the flux capacitor that caused 2 of the members to postulate over the virtues, or lack there of, of the VE and FG. Funny thing is though the thread seemed to be about the advertising campaign that Holden were currently running and whether or not it meant they are desperate - that is worried about the imminent release of the FG model Falcon and it's derivatives.

Errrrr - no would be my conclusion. I would say they are doing what any competitor would do in an open and free market space. That is - try to pursuade Mr & Mrs Average that they should buy a Holden. The use of images and emotional language such as Holdens Go Better was, likely, cleverly thought up by someone who drives a Euro Uber-saloon and couldn't care less about Holden but who is paid vast sums of money to come up with slogans that may convince the public to give their cash to the company for which the slogan now belongs. With these vast sums of money the advertising agent will now go off on a well deserved holiday and think about a new slogan he/she can extract more mountainous volumes of folding stuff from the tampon company he/she also does business with. And somewhere on a tampon forum someone will ask the question - Do you think Carefree are getting desperate with their new advertising campaign? And the Tampax users will vent over the less than adequate applicator that Carefree have provided in their poor quality product etc etc

:

tempest · 03-05-2008, 01:11 AM

Ive read the last page and I've laughed pretty hard at how as the 'argument' went on the attempts to 'out language' each other in order to sound smarter than the other.

You both sound like idiots, there is no need to get all intellectual on each other. To normal people both of you just sound like pompous twats...

Effective communication stems from being simple and concise... I guess both of you have never heard of jargon???

Full Spectrum · 03-05-2008, 01:29 AM

Holden don't get desperate, They get on the offensive marketing wise, They always have and always will.
Truth be told I'm shocked that for so long they have been up so high on marketing, By now you would have expected the team to be bought out or changed?.

Either that or they just wing it with what they select all the time being right?.
But i don't think anyone can be that lucky.

Wally · 03-05-2008, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tempest

Ive read the last page and I've laughed pretty hard at how as the 'argument' went on the attempts to 'out language' each other in order to sound smarter than the other.

You both sound like idiots, there is no need to get all intellectual on each other. To normal people both of you just sound like pompous twats...

Effective communication stems from being simple and concise... I guess both of you have never heard of jargon???

Well let me assure you I'm not a pompous twat, merely educated, a condition that afflicts a fair percentage of the population. Unfortunatley I sometimes slip into my one on one business mode and forget there's an audience. None of it relates to 'out language' anyone, if that was the case I would be using big words and have far less typos.

My apologies for the error, but if it gave you amusement then not all is lost.

On the subject at hand, the following indicates the magnitude of expediture by Ford and GM in promoting their products. It's an extract from a report by an Oz Govt department.

Quote:

Expenditure by motor vehicle companies both in Australia and globally indicates that
a significant amount of their money and resources is spent on advertising. Ford’s global 2003
budget for advertising alone was reported as being $2.7 billion US (Ford Motor Company,
2003). Similarly large advertising budgets are reported by General Motors with advertising
expenses averaging $4.4 billion US annually from 2001 to 2003. To put these figures in
perspective, research and development expense averaged $5.9 billion US annually in the same
time period (General Motors Corporation, 2003). Honda has also recently spent $80 million
US in a single campaign to launch two new vehicles (Halliday, 2000). These figures suggest
that motor vehicle advertisers have considerable resources and potential to deliver their
messages to consumers.

tapeworm · 03-05-2008, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtp 2003

Two big facts I find suprising that most people dont know, is that the FX Holden was designed in Detroit and not in Australia as most people think. The second fact is that it was the Ford motor company that manufactured the first ute. Why is it that the Holden ute is seen as an iconic aussie car and not a Ford ute, especially as Ford never ditched the ute as Holden did for nearly a decade.

Spewin' about this too, people of the public will most likely tell you that Holden invented the ute. Their image and perception rules supreme again.

Need_a_V8 · 04-05-2008, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtp 2003

Two big facts I find suprising that most people dont know, is that the FX Holden was designed in Detroit and not in Australia as most people think. The second fact is that it was the Ford motor company that manufactured the first ute. Why is it that the Holden ute is seen as an iconic aussie car and not a Ford ute, especially as Ford never ditched the ute as Holden did for nearly a decade.

1.) The 48-215 (FX) began life as the Project 2000. It then evolved into the Project 2200 of which several variants existed. Holden engineers were sent to Detroit with their styling models, drawings and engineering ideas in 1946. They started work on the design proposal and received instructions on setting up the manufacturing operation. The team produced three handmade working prototypes which were almost identical to the final production 48-215. In late 1946 the three cars were shipped to Fishermans Bend, accompanied by the Australian design team and 22 US technicians. The 3 original prototypes were tested throughout 1947 around melbourne before 10 more prototypes are built on the production line at Fishermans bend to clear the line for full scale production. So depending on how you look at it... It was either designed here in Australia (project 2000 and 2200) or the final variation was chosen/designed in the US...but by AUSTRALIAN designers. Either way, it is an Australian design.

2.) Technically Holden built the first ute mate, 10 years before Ford. Holden Coach Works made utes (named 'roadster pickups') from 1924, designing these bodies for Chevrolet and Dodge cars. Ford made their first ute in 1934 (bla bla the request from the victorian farmers wife story).

Here is a picture of one of the first utes... This is a 'stanard utility' based on a Chevrolet. It was built in 1925 by Sydney Body Builders:

GTP290 · 04-05-2008, 12:43 PM

Good call, but bodied cab chasis utes where available on model "A" and model "T" Fords aswell. Ford actually designed a Frame that came through the back pillar,to the central pillars, near the doors. It was called a "coupe utility" and it was one of the first major jobs at the Geelong tool and body shop. These cars were built here and sent to Canada.
so technically it was the worlds first purpose built utility.

xe351 · 04-05-2008, 12:53 PM

technically, some farmer probably built the first ute with a hacksaw lol. And the roadster pickups were just smaller trucks, which had been around for awhile. Ford i believe produced the 1st ute with a roof. I dont know if any one company can claim to wholly invented the ute, just evolution of ideas.

xe351 · 04-05-2008, 01:04 PM

interesting read http://www.nma.gov.au/exhibitions/pa...type_car_no_1/

GTP290 · 04-05-2008, 01:12 PM

ok there were australians involved, but I said it was designed in Detroit =0)

TERMINATOR X · 04-05-2008, 01:31 PM

Yes i have had a gut full of holden stealing the show on all things ford. but Ford really LACK advertising and it's really ****en mi off. I mean the FG is released 2morrow and there's nothing 2day about " new falcon " paper, TV, whatnot. I know holden had adds 4 the VE on TV, On billboards, On some chicks a r s e, ect, before it was even released! For F U C K sake ford you had better pull your finger out of that tight of yours. ( yes i maybe a newer poster but i have an opinion to )

:

Bad Bird · 04-05-2008, 01:59 PM

Maybe I'm out of line here, but the opinion of Canadian tourist really amused me. He thought that it was hilarious that Aussies could be so passionate about two cars which look almost identical.

351capri · 04-05-2008, 02:00 PM

must agree that fords advertising is pathetic. the FG may turn out to be superior,but to sell cars you need to promote their benefits over others. Holden have the edge at the moment and they want to keep it, their ads arent desperate , just well timed. Ford has the ability to do much better, but seem to lack the confidence to be innovative. both the territory and particularly the FG should have diesel variants in the current climate.more ammo for advertising..

GTP290 · 04-05-2008, 05:56 PM

Ive said it before and id say it again, the Holdens looks are very important to Holden, there first priority is to build a good looking car, first and foremost, they now looks sell, Ford dont, look at the well documented AU, be conservative build a nice looking car, then second it with a nice interior and if its even half decent it will sell, Holden know this and have been using this philosophy for years.

Romulus · 04-05-2008, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gtp 2003

Two big facts I find suprising that most people dont know, is that the FX Holden was designed in Detroit and not in Australia as most people think. The second fact is that it was the Ford motor company that manufactured the first ute. Why is it that the Holden ute is seen as an iconic aussie car and not a Ford ute, especially as Ford never ditched the ute as Holden did for nearly a decade.

The Falcon name is the longest running nameplate in Australia. The Falcon has many firsts contrary to what Holden will have you believe. Infact, Falcon has more heritage in Australia than Holden do. Ford should make a point of this and advertise it. This is what was told to me the the FG launch at a Perth dealership.

Having driven a VE Calais V and the new G6ET, the G6ET win hands down compared to Holden's equivalent model in many fronts; handling, performance, economy and ergonomics. The G6ET imo is the Force 6 at a cheaper price but higher standard. As I've stated in another thread the G6ET is a real 'killer in a cardigan'. Anyone who drives one would agree.

Where it's success will lie though is Ford Oz's ability to communicate this and to get punters into the drivers seat. The car will sell itself.

Holden have launched a good advertising campaign to counter the impeding release of the FG. I believe they are worried as they should be. The FG is a technically superior car.

I'll watch with interest to see how Ford's sales go after the honeymoon period expires.