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14-12-2008, 09:52 AM
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#61 | |||
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351 Cleveland:Pure Muscle
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 248
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__________________
Cheers |
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14-12-2008, 03:55 PM
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#62 | |||
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Compulsive Hobbiest
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 1,032
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Quote:
Thank you. Allow me to correct myself..... Sweden is giving Volvo and Saab $3.5 billion USD. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7777395.stm I wrote "million" instead of billion, and also the amount to be given out is less than what I read several days ago. For the past several weeks I have been writing on several message boards lengthy posts dispelling the myths and getting out the news that doesn't, or won't, get reported. I work for Ford and have access to inside business news sources, as well as internal Ford communications and just plain being an involved employee there. I am not a died-in-the-wool Union member, but I am a member. I couldn't undertand the reason for a union in this day and age when I highered in in 1992 so I didn't even come into the job with a pro-union attitude. I am just objective about my surroundings. That being said, I found that there really is a need for the union there.......I never would have believed it. Anyways, sometimes the only way I can get people to actually look and find something for themselves, instead of hoping that they will believe me, is to dare them. I am not afraid about what they will find because there only is what is. The shameful part is that the media is not reporting it. I am just tired of hearing "The CEO's and UAW ran these companies into the ground!" Ok, so why then is every auto manufacturer in the world in dire straights, including Toyota, who can do no wrong if you ask many Americans, and money being asked for from the European Union, MORE money than the Big3 are asking for? Did all these companies run themselves into the ground at the same time? That is as simple as I can make it. Ok, maybe it is not just a Big3 thing. Ford's CEO came to the company in September 2006. He got the company to a size that meets the market and accelerated the company's turnaround plan. He's done nothing but good here, making many of the hardest decisions, and putting his name on them. He turned around Boeing in an undertaking that will be referenced in business courses for decades to come. Daimler ran Chrysler into the ground by not investing any real money in the company and letting it rot on the vine. Why Cerberus got Robert Nardelli to head it up after he ran Home Depot into the ground is beyond me. I can only believe it was so that the company fails. Cerberus got what they wanted, the financial arm of Chrysler. Rick Wagoner is a product of the corporate culture at GM, but even at that he has taken many steps towards following actions that Ford has done in order to improve GM's position. In the past several years with Wagoner at the helm GM's quality has improved greatly and their productivity efficiency has surpassed Toyotas. I think he has done some real good for GM but I think it's too little, too slow. If the economy hadn't hit the skids though I think GM would be ok and looking towards an upswing by next fall (Aug/Sep/Oct). Steve
__________________
My Filmmaking Career Website Latest Project: Musclin' My XB Interceptor project Wife's 1966 Mustang My Artworks and Creative Projects Site Oil Paintings, Airbrushing, Metal Sculpture, Custom Cars, Replica Movie Props, Videos, and more! |
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14-12-2008, 05:53 PM
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#63 | ||
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You dig, we stick!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,461
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Thanks Ohio XB, that was a good read.
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14-12-2008, 08:56 PM
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#64 | ||
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Peter Car
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: geelong
Posts: 23,145
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Yep, well said. There's always some clowns (usually small business owners) who are so quick to jump on the whole anti union bandwagon, but as always there is 2 sides to every story. The UAW have made a lot of concessions to the big 3 to remove the shackles that were introduced when the times were so good they could easily pay for them. But times change and they have made moves to react to it.
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14-12-2008, 11:24 PM
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#65 | ||
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FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Northern Sydney
Posts: 1,908
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Quite a good (and long - sorry) article about GM's woes on Bloomburg/SMH
GM headed for bankruptcy, rescue plan or not December 13, 2008 For General Motors, the question is no longer whether it will get a government loan or if Chief Executive Officer Rick Wagoner will be replaced. It's whether anything can prevent the largest US automaker from sliding into bankruptcy. Each day brings more bad news. Last night, the Senate rejected the government bailout plan. On December 10, GM's 49%-owned affiliate, GMAC LLC, said it didn't have enough capital to become a bank holding company. That means it won't be able to access the Treasury Department's $US700 billion ($1 trillion) rescue fund and get the money needed to finance auto loans to help sell cars. GMAC may now have to file for Chapter 11 protection, with or without a loan, joining GM's biggest parts supplier, Delphi Corp., which is already in bankruptcy. The Detroit-based automaker, leaking $US67 million a day -- enough to buy a fleet of 1,800 Cadillac CTS coupes -- may soon be sucked into the vortex. ``GM already is bankrupt and should file for bankruptcy,'' said David Littman, senior economist for the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, a policy research organization in Midland, Michigan. ``They have too much overhead and too little time left to reduce size to be a survivor in this industry.'' GM officials eschewed the Chapter 11 option for months, believing it would make consumers unwilling to buy their cars. Lead director George Fisher said last week that bankruptcy is ``way down the list of options.'' GM has been working with New York lawyer Martin Bienenstock of Dewey & LeBoeuf to devise an option for using the bankruptcy process to restructure, according to a person familiar with the contingency plan. Cash concerns A bankruptcy filing in the US wouldn't necessarily include overseas subsidiaries such as GM Europe, which builds Opel and Vauxhall automobiles. It would, said Alan Baum, manager of forecasting for Planning Edge, a consulting firm in Birmingham, Michigan, make a foreign supplier or partner ``fear that a GM bankruptcy might eat up its cash.'' The Senate thwarted the government bailout in a procedural vote after talks failed in a dispute with Republicans over how quickly auto-union wages should be cut. Only 10 Republicans voted to move forward on the rescue plan. GM shares traded in Germany fell as much as 51% today. To GM's critics, worries about cash are three years too late. The financial crisis wasn't the culprit that brought the company to the brink of insolvency, as Wagoner told Congress last month. It was just the final straw in a succession of unresolved or unaddressed issues. Shrinking sales, value Since 2005, GM has lost a cumulative $US72.4 billion, had its debt downgraded to junk, watched its share of US auto sales shrink by almost 1 million vehicles and shed 90% of its market value. It introduced gas-guzzling vehicles as fuel prices rose, failed to slim down its product offerings and dealer networks quickly enough and wasn't able to cap its labor costs in time to stem the bleeding. In September 2007, the company won the right to hire new workers at lower wages starting in 2010 -- too far down the road to avoid the consequences of a recession and a credit crunch that engulf it now. ``We made mistakes,'' Wagoner conceded at a Senate hearing last week. Among the errors, he said, were ``failing to build sufficient flexibility into our operations and not moving fast enough to invest in smaller, more fuel-efficient vehicles.'' 100th birthday Wagoner, 55, who has been CEO since 2000 and declined to be interviewed for this article, was also slow to see the impact of the credit crisis. On Sept. 16, the day after Lehman Brothers Holdings Inc. filed the biggest bankruptcy in US history, he told reporters at a party at Detroit's Renaissance Center marking the company's 100th birthday that he saw ``no big impact'' on consumers. The next month GM's auto sales in the US plunged 45%. After 77 years as the world's largest automaker, GM and its executives were unable to embrace change. The company continued to plow resources into sport-utility vehicles and make bad alternative-fuel bets, even after consumer buying habits shifted. It rejected an offer from Carlos Ghosn, CEO of Renault SA and Nissan Motor Co., to form a global alliance. And it dismissed calls for radical restructuring from former board member Jerome York and other critics. Ignoring advice York, 70, a former Chrysler Corp. finance chief, was advising Tracinda Corp. CEO Kirk Kerkorian, who had amassed a 9.9% stake in GM. He told analysts in January 2006 that the time had come for the automaker ``to go into a crisis mode and act accordingly.'' York calculated that GM was burning through cash at a rate of $US24 million a day, which meant it had about 1,000 days before it ran out -- in October 2008. GM ignored York's advice to reduce its number of models, including getting rid of the Hummer and Saab brands, and to cut both management and labor costs in what he called an ``equality of sacrifice.'' He resigned nine months later, in October 2006, frustrated by the board's unwillingness to take action. Only after York left did GM decide to sell Hummer. Now it's talking about getting rid of Saab and Saturn, as well as Pontiac. ``Three years ago I thought GM had the time and financial resources to save itself,'' York, now CEO of Harwinton Capital LLC, said in an interview. ``Now I'm not so sure. Who's responsible? Top management and the board of directors.'' Auto bubble Although York's prediction was prescient -- GM has told Congress it will run out of cash by the end of the year if it doesn't get relief -- what no one could foresee then were two developments that sealed GM's fate: a run-up in gasoline prices and a credit-market freeze that followed Lehman's collapse. The frozen credit markets signaled the end of an era of easy money that delayed GM's day of reckoning. In a parallel to the housing bubble, GM and its Big Three brethren enjoyed a decade of artificially inflated sales. Finance companies did a booming business in subprime auto loans, a rarity in 2000, which accounted for 18% of new-car financing by 2005, according to CNW Market Research in Bandon, Oregon. And the automakers' own subsidiaries offered low-interest financing that helped move cars off dealers' lots. That did nothing to stem GM's steady loss of market share in the US, from 30% in 2000 to 22% today. It did help keep the industry's annual US sales at or near record levels, topping 17 million vehicles. Managed for cash ``They were trying to delay the draconian measures they needed to take,'' said Ashvin Chotai, managing director of Intelligence Automotive Asia Ltd., a consulting firm in London. GM gave the bubble a boost with a zero percent ``Keep America Rolling'' financing campaign started eight days after the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks. Sales jumped 42% in October. The program got the company even more hooked on incentives than it had been in the 1980s. ``Keep America Rolling'' was followed by ``Employee Pricing,'' ``Red Tag Specials'' and other low- interest and rebate deals that made discounting the norm. ``It was a great initiative to prop up the market, but it's a trap they fell into,'' said Chotai, who estimates that annual US auto sales would have fallen to 13 million to 14 million without incentives. ``Nobody believes list price anymore, so you've destroyed your pricing power and you've diluted your brand.'' That's only one way GM executives were short-sighted. It's not that Wagoner, who received an MBA from Harvard University in 1977, doesn't know management. It's that between dwindling liquidity and its sky-high fixed costs, the company was increasingly managed for cash, even at the expense of profit. `Alternate universe' GM continued to build unprofitable models because it needed the cash to meet financial obligations, such as a roughly $US5 billion annual health-care bill for workers and retirees. In 2007, even though GM posted a $US38.7 billion net loss, it managed to generate $US189 million in free-cash flow. That's equivalent to burning the furniture in order to stay warm. ``These are not stupid people, but they had created an alternate universe,'' said James Womack, co-author of ``The Machine That Changed the World,'' a book about the Toyota Motor Corp. production system that bested Detroit's. ``They lived in a cocoon. GM was weak for reasons that were under the surface, and the financial crisis brought it all out.'' To John Shook, a former Toyota manager who worked at a joint-venture plant run by the Japanese company and GM in Fremont, California, that explains why the two automakers are in such different shape today. When it comes to engineering and manufacturing, Shook says, Toyota and GM are about equal. Where they differ is in their corporate cultures. ``Toyota is built on trial and error, on admitting you don't know the future and that you have to experiment,'' Shook said. ``At GM, they say, `I'm senior management. There's a right answer, and I'm supposed to know it.' This makes it harder to try things.'' `Increasing certitude' So while Toyota assumed it must continuously adapt if it wanted to succeed in the US, Shook says, GM believed it would forever be the market leader. Its managers brought Toyota's manufacturing methods from Fremont to Detroit. They couldn't duplicate Toyota's zen: question everything. Wagoner, a 31-year GM veteran, was the embodiment of its culture, an apostle of incremental change. Exciting as a Saturn, quotable as an owner's manual, the one-time Duke University basketball player exuded quiet confidence about GM's future. ``I know that things will turn around,'' he told Fortune magazine in February 2006, after problems erupted at the automaker. The magazine concluded in a cover story that ``the evidence points, with increasing certitude, to bankruptcy.'' ``GM people tend to internalize, to think that they can figure things out on their own,'' said Don Runkle, chairman of Inkster, Michigan-based battery maker EaglePicher Inc. and a former GM chief engineer. Perot appalled Over the years, the occasional outsider who entered the company with notions of shaking it up has been rejected as a foreign organism. GM acquired Electronic Data Systems Corp. for $US2.55 billion in 1984 and gave its chairman, H. Ross Perot, a seat on the board. The brash Texan, appalled at GM's ways, shocked directors by challenging then-CEO Roger Smith in meetings and publicly ridiculing the company. ``The first EDS-er to see a snake kills it,'' Perot told Business Week in 1986. ``At GM, first thing you do is organize a committee on snakes. Then you bring in a consultant who knows a lot about snakes. Third thing you do is talk about it for a year.'' In 1986, GM paid Perot $US700 million for his stock and his resignation from the board. Even when GM did make changes, they weren't revolutionary. In 1992, a year when the automaker posted a $US23.5 billion loss, Chairman and CEO Robert Stempel resigned under pressure after 27 months on the job. It named director John Smale, the retired CEO of Procter & Gamble Co., as non-executive chairman and appointed Jack Smith, a GM lifer, as CEO. `Run common, run lean' Smith invested in SUVs and pickup trucks, starving cars, especially smaller models where Japanese automakers dominated. He rode a wave of prosperity, cheap gasoline and a strong North American housing market to eight straight years of profitability and a record share price of $US93.62 in April 2000 before turning over the wheel to his protégé, Wagoner. While Smith's mantra was ``run common, run lean,'' he never achieved the goal of creating shared platforms and standards that might have slashed operating costs. GM has long been penalized, compared with its Japanese rivals, by its capital costs. It develops scores of chassis to meet different consumer preferences around the world. Yet it wasn't until this year, after more than a decade of reorganization, that the company introduced its first common chassis for use worldwide. It will serve a mid-size Opel Insignia in Europe and a new Buick LaCrosse to be built in the US next year. Pontiac Aztek Smith was also unable to drive sales with novel products. The Pontiac Aztek, a mid-size crossover introduced in 1999 as ``the most versatile vehicle on the planet,'' was so unsightly, so badly received, it was voted the ugliest car of all time in an August 2008 poll by the London Telegraph. The model was discontinued in 2004. Challenged by 2001's twin shocks of recession and 9/11, the new CEO, who had spent most of his career in finance, fell back on what he knew best. Through its GMAC LLC unit, GM attracted ever more buyers with creative financing gambits. One was the ``incentivized lease,'' requiring no money down and low monthly payments. While that lured customers and stoked production, when the leases expired, GM had to write off the difference between a vehicle's assumed value, for lease purposes, and its true market value. Since resale prices had been reduced by the surfeit of GM product on the market, so was the company's profit. Shattered illusion The illusion of prosperity would vanish when the era of easy money passed. In the first quarter of 2005, after 12 straight years of profit, GM lost $US1.3 billion. The company's guidance on March 15 that a loss was coming startled Wall Street. Investors beat down the company's shares by 24% over the next four weeks. On May 4, Kerkorian, 91, who had reaped $US3 billion on a 10% stake in Chrysler that he sold in 1998, disclosed that he had amassed 3.9% of GM's shares and was launching a tender offer for more. The next day Standard & Poor's knocked the company's bonds down to one grade below investment quality. GM, once the bluest of blue-chips, now had junkers for bonds. Turnaround plan Wagoner unveiled a ``turnaround plan'' in November 2005. It called for closing nine plants, eliminating 30,000 jobs, boosting employee contributions to GM's health-care plan, increasing investment in its best-selling models such as the Hummer and revamping marketing efforts. To Kerkorian and York, who joined GM's board in February 2006, that wasn't bold enough. The plant closings and health-care changes saved only $US2 billion a year, they said, and the company's idea of innovation was more versions of the same thing: the SUVs and trucks whose sales had been carrying GM. Others had come to a similar conclusion. A month after Wagoner's plan was announced, S&P again downgraded GM's debt and called bankruptcy ``not far-fetched.'' Wagoner found the crisis talk overblown. He dismissed a flurry of Chapter 11 questions by saying there was ``no plan, strategy or intention for GM to file for bankruptcy.'' In April 2006, Wagoner took charge of GM's North America division. That same month, he announced the sale of 51% of GMAC to New York-based private-equity firm Cerberus Capital Management LP for $US7.4 billion. The move was intended to improve GM's liquidity and protect GMAC's access to credit markets, which had been threatened by the parent company's ratings. Confidence vote Wagoner sought a vote of confidence from the board that month and got it -- though not from GM's newest director. York said he thought more sweeping changes were needed and that they weren't going to come from within. He and Kerkorian began to pursue Ghosn, 54, who had pulled Nissan back from the brink of bankruptcy. In May, Kerkorian met with Ghosn in Nashville, Tennessee, and asked him to consider an alliance. Renault and Nissan would each take a 10% stake in GM, share resources and collaborate as a way of cutting costs and spurring change. Ghosn was interested, according to York, and said he'd want a seat on the GM board. That would give him influence over the company's strategy and perhaps position him to succeed Wagoner. Kerkorian then sent a letter to Wagoner. In GM fashion, the proposal was studied for months and brought to the board. For directors, it was another opportunity to show their confidence in the incumbent CEO. On Oct. 4, they put an end to any alliance talks. Two days later, York quit the board. ``I haven't found an environment in the boardroom that is very receptive to probing much beyond the materials provided by management,'' York wrote in his letter of resignation. Twin pillars GM shares dropped 6.3% on the news, and over the next two months Kerkorian unwound his position in GM. He netted $US106 million on his $US1.7 billion investment, according to regulatory filings. In 2007, the two pillars holding up the company began to crumble, and not even the deal to reduce labor costs with the United Auto Workers could save it. First, the subprime-loan market imploded, hurting GMAC's Residential Capital LLC unit. On Nov. 1, 2007, GMAC reported a third-quarter loss of $US1.6 billion as a result of subprime- mortgage writedowns. Over the next three weeks, GM lost one-third of its market value. $US4.11 a gallon Then gasoline prices began climbing, topping out at an average price of $US4.11 a gallon in July 2008, ending America's love affair with SUVs and pickup trucks -- the very categories that Wagoner had staked the company's future on in his 2005 turnaround plan. It's not as if other automakers hadn't also favored trucks in recent years. Gas-guzzlers were more profitable than light vehicles and, as long as fuel was cheap, far more popular. The problem was that GM so skewed its model lineup away from sedans that it was out of position when the market turned. To make matters worse, at the moment many Americans became concerned with getting better gas mileage and going ``green,'' GM was years behind on developing alternative-energy cars. Toyota and Honda Motor Co. each introduced gas-electric hybrid cars in 1997 -- the Prius and Insight, respectively. GM engineers scoffed at both. These were small, odd-looking and costly to produce. Why would people buy a car whose price outweighed the gas savings? GM executives told reporters the hybrids were public-relations gimmicks. EV1's demise GM discontinued its one alternative-energy vehicle -- the battery-powered EV1 -- in 2003, after spending more than $US1 billion on a car with limited range that flopped with consumers. Company engineers believed that cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells were the real future in this field. ``They knew the home run was 20 years away, and they weren't willing to settle for singles and doubles in the meantime,'' said Shook, the former Toyota manager. ``At Toyota, they said, `We don't know the future; let's try something we can do right now.''' Today, with Prius a hit with consumers, GM is scrambling to catch up. It has several hybrid models of its own and, with Congress badgering him to produce more alternative-energy cars, Wagoner has made their development a major part of the restructuring program for which he's seeking $US10 billion. GM apologizes He conceded the error of his ways in June, when GM's board gave the go-ahead to market the electric-powered Chevrolet Volt in 2010. ``Axing the EV1 electric-car program and not putting the right resources into hybrids,'' Wagoner told Motor Trend magazine, when asked to name his greatest mistake as CEO. ``It didn't affect profitability, but it did affect image.'' The confession may have come too late. As did an ad GM placed on December 8 in the Automotive News, an industry publication, acknowledging it had ``disappointed'' Americans in recent years with its quality, design and reliance on trucks. Without a reduction in debt and lower labor costs, GM may not weather the current slowdown in US vehicle sales. Congressional critics have argued that the rescue plan passed by the House on December 10 doesn't give the government leverage to force substantive changes on management and labor. Even a bridge loan, said Edward Altman, a finance professor at New York University's Stern School of Business, ``is destined to fail.'' ``They've actually done some terrific stuff,'' said Womack, the author, who is chairman of management-training firm Lean Enterprise Institute in Cambridge, Massachusetts. ``It's just that the scale is so large and the changes came so late in the game. The band was all tuned up, the brass was polished, but the ship had already hit the iceberg.'' |
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14-12-2008, 11:47 PM
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#66 | |||
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FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Geelong
Posts: 2,374
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Quote:
 I no business expert but if you don't let people buy the car how can you sell it. |
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15-12-2008, 12:15 AM
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#67 | ||
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You dig, we stick!
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 7,461
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Bloody good read Dave; it appears the UAW had nothing to do with the collapse, as Ohio XB pointed out, but only to do with very poor management/decisions.
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15-12-2008, 03:47 AM
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#68 | |||
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Compulsive Hobbiest
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 1,032
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Quote:
Thanks for the compliments and thank you for reading such a long post. And thank YOU for being another person that understands the situtation. You nailed it. Steve
__________________
My Filmmaking Career Website Latest Project: Musclin' My XB Interceptor project Wife's 1966 Mustang My Artworks and Creative Projects Site Oil Paintings, Airbrushing, Metal Sculpture, Custom Cars, Replica Movie Props, Videos, and more! |
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15-12-2008, 08:46 AM
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#69 | |||
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FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Filling up
Posts: 1,459
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Quote:
Steve (Ohio XB) It was reported over here that the reason why the bailout failed was because, all parties involved could not reach an agreement on the hourly pay rate. It was suggested that the current rate of pay is $31 per hour - congress/senate wanted to drop that to $29 per hour (in line with Toyota's pay rate - for US manufacturing plants) Is this correct? EDIT and why would this cause talks to fail? Everyone is doing it tough due to the economic slowdown (not just the big 3 auto manufactuers) and obviously this will cost jobs however I personally think it is important to keep as many people employeed as possible to prevent the economy falling further. It was reported over here that the loss of the big 3 would cost the US approx 3 million jobs (this includes car yards etc) If this were to happen and other industries were also shedding jobs this would be catastrophic for the US economy.
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VIXEN MK II GT 0238 with Sunroof and tinted windows with out all the go fast bits I actually need  :
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15-12-2008, 08:56 AM
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#70 | ||
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Compulsive Hobbiest
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 1,032
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Dave AU, good article. Whew, lots to read but information that is needed to understand the situation.
Funny thing about Americans. We can be very "fair weathered" when it comes to situtations. When gas went to $4 a gallon here a lot of people could not get rid of their trucks and SUV's fast enough. There was a "holy-crap" moment when it cost way to much to fill these things up and go a short distance. I too parked the truck and bought a used car that got only 5 more miles per gallon, but I got it for a song. Sales of new and used subcompacts soared to their highest levels, probably of all time. Hybrid sales were also the best they had ever been. That was July. Then October came with very manageable gas (petrol) prices and guess what? Ford had delayed the launch of the 2009 F-150 because of the high price of gasoline and didn't produce as many as they usually would for a vehicle launch, and when they were introduced Ford did not have enough! Ford is still trying to catch up to meet demand.....of full sized pick-up trucks. Yeah, the new one gets a couple more miles per gallon, but still like a truck, but gasoline right now is about $1.50 USD a gallon now where I live.....and the trucks are rolling right off the lots. Americans are not the biggest fans of small cars, but they are also for making the most of their money when it buys less, especially much less when the price of gasoline quadrupled. If gasoline prices are not an issue......well, we already know what they would rather have. Steve
__________________
My Filmmaking Career Website Latest Project: Musclin' My XB Interceptor project Wife's 1966 Mustang My Artworks and Creative Projects Site Oil Paintings, Airbrushing, Metal Sculpture, Custom Cars, Replica Movie Props, Videos, and more! |
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15-12-2008, 09:21 AM
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#71 | |||
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Compulsive Hobbiest
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 1,032
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Quote:
You are exactly right on that point. The hourly wage that the person receives in their paycheck at the Big3 is an average of $27 per hour. As mentioned in my previous post, in this video at 1 minute and 28 seconds into it........... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036677#28184396 ...you will see a graphic that states that Toyota workers, in the State that the Senator is from who was saying he couldn't get the UAW to agree to lower wages, earn more than the UAW workers do because of a bonus that they get. Nissan paid their workers $26 per hour (is $1 so unreasonable a difference?) and they also got a bonus on top of that. It is not known if that bonus only puts their workers equal to the UAW or beyond what the UAW workers get. The information is from January 2007 in regards to 2006 wages, but that is still the same wage that the UAW has today. It has been frozen. The President of the UAW stated that they did have a tentative agreement. This tentative agreement was not voted on by the Senate. Instead, everytime the UAW agreed to a request another request was made. It seemed no matter what the UAW agreed to it was never enough. Then when Senator Corker (from Kentucky) wanted the UAW to drop their hourly wage to what the foreign companies were paying, and I would suspect not the one in his home State but rather in the deep south where all wages are lower, that was when Mr. Gettlefinger said "enough is enough". And as seen in that video Toyota and Japanese workers could be earning even more. The total compensation structure that we have outlined in the present contract will eliminate the total compenation difference between the two industries, especially with the concessions that are being worked out RIGHT NOW AS I TYPE THIS. Nothing wrong with the hourly wage being about the same, give or take a dollar or two per hour. But when one industry is paying for 1 million retirees and the other is paying for 1,000 or less, I think a $5 differnce between the two is not so unreasonable, but it most likely will not even be that. In the paragraph above I am talking about the total compensation, wage and benefits, that the workers get. Right now there is about an $8 or $9 difference between the UAW and foreign auto makers here in the US, but this will be gone. As far as what all Japanese assembly line workers get paid, it depends on where the plant is at in the US. In Texas it is $28 per hour, in the deep south where wages are GENERALLY lower it may only be $16 per hour for doing the exact same work. In the UAW you get paid the same wage for doing the same work no matter where you are. Steve
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My Filmmaking Career Website Latest Project: Musclin' My XB Interceptor project Wife's 1966 Mustang My Artworks and Creative Projects Site Oil Paintings, Airbrushing, Metal Sculpture, Custom Cars, Replica Movie Props, Videos, and more! |
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15-12-2008, 09:29 AM
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#72 | |||
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FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Filling up
Posts: 1,459
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Quote:
__________________
VIXEN MK II GT 0238 with Sunroof and tinted windows with out all the go fast bits I actually need :
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15-12-2008, 02:47 PM
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#73 | ||
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Compulsive Hobbiest
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 1,032
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Wright Patterson Air Force Base. Never been there yet but some day. It's only about 3 1/2 horus away fro me. Great Air Force museum there.
If you listen to Senator Corker from Kentucky who was the guy bargaining for the Senators, the UAW would just not give a date when they would set their compensation to the same as the foreign auto makers in the US. Just gives us a date.......they won't do it. According to the UAW President he was asked to make certain consessions and he agreed to them. This was their tentative deal. After this Senator Corker came back with another requirement. The President agreed to that. Then yet another demand was made, I don't know how many times this was, and he felt that since he was agreeing to the demands it seemed the Senate was then just going to go ahead and demand everything, and nothing seemed like enough. The initial demands and more were already accepted. The contract between the Big3 and the UAW already addresses the labor cost difference between the Big3 and the foreign auto makers. I think we should set the Senator's pay to equal what their counterpart in Japan makes. It must be reasonable to ask, right? While we're at it, what does a plumbing company owned by middle easterners pay their plumbers? How about a convenient store owned by Indians? Whatever these companies pay their people is what all American companies should pay their people?????????????????? Where is this logic from? Thanks for the well wishes. I just learned that Ford is retooling a plant in Louisville, Kentucky to make parts to ship to the plant I work at in Ohio that will be for the Ford Transit. We've been waiting to hear that our plant is getting the European Transit for quite a while now. It has still not been officially announced but the article about the plant in Kentucky pretty much confirms it. This will mean I will be able to retire from my plant in another 15 years or so. We build the Ford Econoline that was just rated Best in Quality Full Sized Van by J.D. Powers, one of the most coveted review firms. Steve
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My Filmmaking Career Website Latest Project: Musclin' My XB Interceptor project Wife's 1966 Mustang My Artworks and Creative Projects Site Oil Paintings, Airbrushing, Metal Sculpture, Custom Cars, Replica Movie Props, Videos, and more! |
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15-12-2008, 03:08 PM
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#74 | ||
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FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Sydney
Posts: 1,334
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If you want to talk about logic- where's the logic in paying workers who no longer work? Where's the logic in paying benefits to those who retired who knows how long before?
How is it possible to budget for something that's 20 or 30 years in the future? (retirement health benefits, etc.). I suppose I'm used to our sustem of paying superannuation, but at least you can actually budget for that as you go. I don't and probably never will understand how you run a business like that. Maybe it's why they're in so much trouble. I'm aware that many, many other manufacturers are in dire straights but none so bad as GM and Chrysler. They were losing money hand over fist for quite some time before this financial disaster came about- same with Ford. I was probably a bit harsh on the UAW but it remains that they have played a big part in preventing progress in the past, both distant and recent. It remains to be seen whether all parties invoved have the sense and intestinal fortitude to make concessions where they're needed, to prevent one hell of a economic disaster from occuring. This has far broader reaching concequences than many many people realise... |
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15-12-2008, 08:55 PM
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#75 | ||
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FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,085
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$29ph... that's in USD. Do GM/etc employ engineers on their lines?? Then if you add the dollar value of the pensions/health plan.... thats one hell of a pay rate for what is in essence, a slightly more technical process worker.
Why isnt it acceptable for a paycut to happen, especially when their starting position so out of whack with other industries? |
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15-12-2008, 09:02 PM
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#76 | |||
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FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Feb 2005
Posts: 5,085
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15-12-2008, 09:55 PM
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Parts Fiend
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,592
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Quote:
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One From March 2006 to June 2006 I worked at a major Distribution Centre in Vic. A heavily safety orientated facility. The problem was there were 3 middle level managers that oversee the workers on the floor in the two sorting sections. These managers would conjure up 'new safety methods/practices' from the office, without actually asking any of the floor staff what would suit/work more effective. When one of their new practices was introduced in my time, it instantly created confusion among the floor staff who were used to the simple and proven safe practice already there, thus creating a more costly system for company. It was promptly scrapped within 2 weeks and the old system replaced. What Im trying to say is management is the key to the business. Instead of sitting in an office thinking what works best, they should get out and ask what works and what doesnt. In every job that I had had in my 6 years in the workforce (Yes I got a job as soon as I turned 15) I have been able to see a more efficient and effective way of doing different tasks. Yet the management didnt see them until I pointed them out. On rare occassions some actually listened. Henry Ford may have pioneered the automotive production line, the Japanese have perfected it.
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16-12-2008, 05:27 PM
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#78 | ||
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IWCMOGTVM Club Supporter
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Northern Suburbs Melbourne
Posts: 17,799
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And funny enough the whole efficient production system was introduced to the Japanese by an American who was laughed at by the big 3 in the 50's.
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Daniel |
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16-12-2008, 06:06 PM
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#79 | ||
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FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: WA, Perth/ Pilbara
Posts: 2,473
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I think the one thing that all this has brought out is that evrything was just running on borrowed money, company's that looked like they were Good are really in a world of problems and I'm not just talking about the U.S auto industry.
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FPV GS ute 5.0 S/C Twin 3-inch, pacemaker headers |
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17-12-2008, 03:02 PM
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#80 | |||
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Compulsive Hobbiest
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 1,032
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Quote:
Fair enough questions. I don't know how benefits are in Australia so I can only explain how our's are here and maybe give you a better understanding of what is "typical" here. In the 1950's, 60's, and 70's it was not so uncommon for companies (not just talking about the Big3) to offer a pension as a benefit to attract workers. Pensions for salaried people were more commonplace, but pensions for blue-collared workers was not as common, but it was out there and it was great if you could land one of those jobs. Men compared their jobs to each other's and the benefits were usually the most significant part. To have a pension was very admired and I would have to say most people were looking for a job that offered it. These were usually companies that had been around a long time and were the big players in their industry. Offering pensions as a benefit was also a sign of the company's position; strong, stable, enduring. That was then. Now that there have been far more people than jobs for quite a while not too many companies offer pensions anymore. If 100 people will not take a job because there is no pension and the pay is only so-so, there is another 100 people behind them that will take that job. Because there have been so many people that grew up in that era now, they have a hard time comprehending a pension. Now you would also think that only the Big3 have them. That is how the news media reports it. The Big3 have these pension things that nobody would have because it is inconceiveable. Well, we are one of the few that still had pensions. They are GONE now. Anyone that hires into the Big3 will NOT get a pension. It is no longer offered. Consessions???? Consessions have been given back already. So many things that the government wants has been done already. They certainly don't want to look bad by asking for something and the companies and union saying "Done that already" in front of the public. They would look silly. But to address the people that get a pension now.......many of them hired in during the 1960's and 1970's. During those times a pension was not so uncommon and it was what was offered to them if they came and worked for Ford, GM, or Chrysler, even American Motors back then. It was offered to them, promised in a contract, and they have been living on it.....to a point. Part of the pension gets reduced when they start to collect Social Security. Whatever their Social Security Benefit is that is how much their Pension is reduced by. Trust me, they are not living like Kings. I think right now, when I retire in about 14 years, I am looking at about $1,800 USD a month.......14 years from now. Better than nothing, and it was promised to me when I hired in and it was in writing in a contract. I hope that shines some light on it. Feel free to ask anything else. Steve
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My Filmmaking Career Website Latest Project: Musclin' My XB Interceptor project Wife's 1966 Mustang My Artworks and Creative Projects Site Oil Paintings, Airbrushing, Metal Sculpture, Custom Cars, Replica Movie Props, Videos, and more! |
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17-12-2008, 03:14 PM
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#81 | |||
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Compulsive Hobbiest
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 1,032
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That is what the media and the government keep telling the public. This is plain rubbish. For a "plain as day" explanation on this, and absolute facts that disprove this falacy, please read this article. It is from a newpaper right here in Ohio where I live... http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs...SS02/812130362 The title of the article is UAW workers' pay on par with Japanese competitors in U.S. It gets out all the real facts that the general media and the government don't mention, and in the case of the government, when the Big3 showed up in town the government had a perception and notion about the industry that was at least 10 years old and they demonstrated that they had NO clue as to what has been going on over the past 3 - 5 years. Engineers are salaried personnel and not part of UAW compensation. In my experience, and what I see most from reliable sources, and what I read in the contract, the line workers get $28/hr USD. After reading the above article you saw that this is typical even among the Japanese companies in the USA. Steve
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My Filmmaking Career Website Latest Project: Musclin' My XB Interceptor project Wife's 1966 Mustang My Artworks and Creative Projects Site Oil Paintings, Airbrushing, Metal Sculpture, Custom Cars, Replica Movie Props, Videos, and more! |
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17-12-2008, 03:30 PM
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Compulsive Hobbiest
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 1,032
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What country is this cancer researcher in??? Do you have a link to this info? $28/hr x 2,060 working hours in a year is $57,680 USD before taxes. This means the cancer researcher you reference makes $28,840 USD per year. Is this the orderly that sets up the lab, cleans, and runs errands? Maybe an Intern? I cannot imagine any self respecting, medical college degreed PhD that is doing genetic and cellular research working for this amount, at least not in the US. Those positions pay much better than that. Steve
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My Filmmaking Career Website Latest Project: Musclin' My XB Interceptor project Wife's 1966 Mustang My Artworks and Creative Projects Site Oil Paintings, Airbrushing, Metal Sculpture, Custom Cars, Replica Movie Props, Videos, and more! |
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17-12-2008, 03:31 PM
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#83 | ||
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Built Ford Tough
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: State of Euphoria Mod: F-Series
Posts: 3,035
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If the bailout fails to occur - why Ford might not be so bad off...
http://www.time.com/time/business/ar...-inline-bottom
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Black on white '83 SWB F100 C6 auto 351C on gas and on the ground --> Project Thread '55 F100, just a roller at the moment, new project Silver MY12 Volkswagen Amarok |
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17-12-2008, 03:31 PM
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#84 | ||
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FF.Com.Au Hardcore
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,021
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Hi Ohio XB,
One of Australia's biggest beefs with the UAW especially within Ford Oz is the perception whether true or not, that the UAW block all our attempts to send Australian built cars overseas to the states. On many occasions it has been reported that the UAW have blocked attempts for Holden and Ford to send cars o'seas. If i remember correctly the Monaro (GTO) was only allowed to come over in very limited numbers after a lot of bending over by Holden and GM. When ford management in Australia are asked in information sessions why don't we send the Territory to the states the answer has been that the UAW would never allow it (because it makes the crap that Ford US churn out look like the garbage it is...........) Australia has a vast union backed workforce so we are not a country of union haters, but some of the stories (lies?) we hear about the UAW down here makes us shake our heads in amazement. |
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17-12-2008, 03:34 PM
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Built Ford Tough
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: State of Euphoria Mod: F-Series
Posts: 3,035
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Not just sending cars into the US, but sending LHD configured exports into regions such as the Middle East already serviced by US exports, such as the amazingly hi-tech Crown Vic...
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Black on white '83 SWB F100 C6 auto 351C on gas and on the ground --> Project Thread '55 F100, just a roller at the moment, new project Silver MY12 Volkswagen Amarok |
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17-12-2008, 03:35 PM
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Compulsive Hobbiest
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 1,032
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Quote:
Toyota is a benchmark for management. They really got it right. I know Ford has worked to adopt many of their methods and and it has improved the company. However, I believe Toyota is learning the new issues that arrise when you become the size that GM was as denoted by a slight drop in their quality and the increase in the number of recalls. I believe there is a size that is just too big for anyone to handle. Steve
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My Filmmaking Career Website Latest Project: Musclin' My XB Interceptor project Wife's 1966 Mustang My Artworks and Creative Projects Site Oil Paintings, Airbrushing, Metal Sculpture, Custom Cars, Replica Movie Props, Videos, and more! |
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17-12-2008, 03:39 PM
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Compulsive Hobbiest
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 1,032
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Quote:
I wondered it anyone was going to bring that up. He called it "Team Concept", and that is what we called it when we were the pilot plant in the US for Ford to institute its methods.......in 1992. Ford did not completely move into Team Concept but did learn a lot from it, chose what worked best, changed other methods they already had based on what was learned and improved them, and on and on. Like I said, most people don't know what's been going on at the Big3 and so many people would be floored to learn just what has. Steve
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My Filmmaking Career Website Latest Project: Musclin' My XB Interceptor project Wife's 1966 Mustang My Artworks and Creative Projects Site Oil Paintings, Airbrushing, Metal Sculpture, Custom Cars, Replica Movie Props, Videos, and more! |
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17-12-2008, 03:41 PM
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#88 | |||
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Built Ford Tough
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: State of Euphoria Mod: F-Series
Posts: 3,035
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Quote:
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Black on white '83 SWB F100 C6 auto 351C on gas and on the ground --> Project Thread '55 F100, just a roller at the moment, new project Silver MY12 Volkswagen Amarok |
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18-12-2008, 04:17 AM
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#89 | |||
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Compulsive Hobbiest
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Ohio, USA
Posts: 1,032
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Quote:
I have to confess ignorance here.  : ?Steve
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My Filmmaking Career Website Latest Project: Musclin' My XB Interceptor project Wife's 1966 Mustang My Artworks and Creative Projects Site Oil Paintings, Airbrushing, Metal Sculpture, Custom Cars, Replica Movie Props, Videos, and more! |
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18-12-2008, 07:38 PM
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Lukeyson
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Maitland, NSW
Posts: 2,584
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Quote:
I have to concur with all of this. In fact, in many parts of this country, the UAW is considered a dirty word because of the impact it has on restricting our export and profitability. It's no wonder that the slightest mention of the UAW in any US bailout failure has us all pointing our collective fingers at them for the blame. You have to understand the built-up angst they have caused to us over the years to appreciate how quickly we accept any token part in this as 'typical'. It has forced the local branches into economies that are not seen elsewhere - or so we are told - such as the locals can still build quality cars on a business case of only tens of thousands of units sold in a year - not millions. New models can still be developed for AUD$1/2 Million (Territory) - those kinds of R&D dollars would not get very far anywhere else in the world. And despite this there is still a perceived quality disparity between cars made in the US and elsewhere. The Mustang was exported to Australia and converted to RHD here in the early 00's, and were continuously lambasted for poor materials, fit and finish. However, on their merits, I do see the points made here. I found it hard to accept the harsh words from some of the US senators towards the auto industry when all car makers worldwide are in a similar position. I had no appreciation of how little impact on the total cost of a car the UAW had. And I can see now how the boom periods in the past have helped to contribute to the bust we have now. Think of it this way. If the auto makers get through this, they'll be all the stronger for it. In the immortal words of Kanye West "nya nya nya nya nut kill me, only makes me stronger...." Lukeyson
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