FPV outsells HSV in jan '09

[XRQTR]

Originally Posted by zx10

I agree with the point about the bigger better versions not always selling in greater numbers. I do however think that a GTHO would sell in a quantity(definately not bigger numbers than GT) to make it a viable option to ford. Why not scrap the GT-P and make a GTHO instead. Give the customers a real variant other than different seats and bigger brakes.

The GT-P is essentially a made to order vehicle, in that they only build what they have a deposit for, so it wouldn't be difficult to shuffle it in.

But then watch all the people that can't afford a HO cry about the GT-P being removed from the line up because they want something a little better than a GT.

What they need is a company that is willing to build to order, FPV want volume, then the fabled HO will once again become a reality, sure it might cost almost as much as a Ferrari (base model LOL) but it will be hand built made to order. Throw in some exotic construction material in the floorpan and chassis unit, take off about 500kg, mid mount the engine, turn it into a two door, lower the roof and hip lines of the car, bolt in some adjustable features like suspension and a partially removable roll cage ala GT3 RS, how about 20"x12" rear tyres and wheels with 19"x10" front full carbon kevlar wheels, kevlar ceramic brakes..........

I think you get the point, FPV are not in the business of building cars, they are in the business of marketing.

HSV will always outsell FPV for the simple reason that they are willing to lose some money occasionally in order to build passion in people, even if they only release 100 production models it is all about the desirability. The W427 might not sell many units but everyone here seems to use it whenever they talk about having the nads to go out and just do it for the people.

The F6 R spec was a prime example, instead of giving it an extra 20kw and some supportive seats as well as suspension they gave it slightly better shocks and threw in some floor mats and a badge. Most would have been happy to pay an extra $10K should they have actually gone and done what needed to be done, but once again, they fell short.

Like I said FPV build to a profit margin, quarterly projections and even shareholders I guess, until they build what the buyers are asking for they will never see the sales they aspire to.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by zx10

I agree with the point about the bigger better versions not always selling in greater numbers. I do however think that a GTHO would sell in a quantity(definately not bigger numbers than GT) to make it a viable option to ford. Why not scrap the GT-P and make a GTHO instead. Give the customers a real variant other than different seats and bigger brakes.

When I ordered my GT-P on Feb 14 2003 the spec sheet showed it to have a more powerful engine that the GT (310 vs 290) which was one of the reasons I ordered it but later I was told that the GT-Ps and GTs would have the same engine which was what I got when it arrived on May 7 2003.
I was told that this was a marketing decission stemming from a lot of "feedback" from enthusiests at motor shows and displays.

I suspect that there was pressure that the GT badge has to be on top of everything else. This may not be the case with GTHO but I am quite sure it is with the rest.

Imagine an FG F6-320 or BA/BF F6-305. There would be a jihad in Campbellfield that would make Al Qaeda look like boy scouts.

FPVs job is to make cars that sell and that means keeping the masses happy.

The last few deviations from the course; Force, F6X, F6-RSpec, GT-E have all been less than spectacularly sucessful in the sales arena so it would take a brave man to sign off on a huge gamble like a GTHO.

On the other hand if you never gamble then you never win so I am glad that I am not the one having to make these decissions.

[eb2fairmont]

So where's the sticker pack to celebrate?

[zx10]

You can option a GT with the 6 piston brakes?

You can option leather interior (albiet not the huge **** hugging seats)?

You can option sat nav?

What else does the GT-P offer to make it so attractive over a GT?

Does it have better suspension?

I'm not trying to have a chop at you, I just don't understand what it brings to the FPV range.

[zx10]

Originally Posted by XRQTR

I think you get the point, FPV are not in the business of building cars, they are in the business of marketing.

Why dont they build a car that is easier to market then :

[flappist]

Originally Posted by ESP

And again.....like so often......you've missed the point.......

A GTHO will / should be based on a GT.........If they make a GTHO.........that is bigger faster better gooder as you so eloquently put...........IT WILL SELL.

You seem to be hell bent on the fact that because the F6 is a poorer seller than the GT that the sky is falling down and therefore a GTHO cannot sell.

As I stated earlier..........the majority of FPV buyers seem to buy the GT because it is still seen as the aspirational model.......for now. I stated in another thread that I have a gut feel that the FORD V8 program really only has a 5 year lifespan anyways..............so after that..........who knows.

I wonder how many F6HO's would sell if FPV decided to make a penultimate model based on the F6 ?????.............they'd probably go bust.

No you are the one with the F6 fixation and the emotional block. Read it all again. I have actually bought several NEW FPVs going back to when they first came out. I have also actually ordered and paid a deposit on a BF GTHO (which I am still waiting for).

I am simply pointing out that based on the last 6 years of sales FPV sell mostly the basic no option GT model with everything else coming a long second.

You seem to get very upset with that observation but do not offer any counter points other than personal attacks.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by zx10

You can option a GT with the 6 piston brakes?

You can option leather interior (albiet not the huge **** hugging seats)?

You can option sat nav?

What else does the GT-P offer to make it so attractive over a GT?

Does it have better suspension?

I'm not trying to have a chop at you, I just don't understand what it brings to the FPV range.

At this time the seats are about it. In the beginning (BA) the GT-P had climate control, the seats, different body kit & wheels and originally a more powerful engine (the never was released) whereas the GT had standard XTish aircon and ICC.

BA2 saw the climate control in the GT but 19" wheels in the GT-P with the bodykits and seats remaining the same.

Over the BF-BF2-FG the models have gradually merged to the level that the difference between a GT-P and a fully optioned GT is just the seats and maybe a slight difference is bodykit.

[XRQTR]

Originally Posted by zx10

Why dont they build a car that is easier to market then :

Hey I never said they were good at it.

I mean prime example would be the Toyota TRD range, overpriced, possibly released at the wrong time as well but definitely overpriced, would you pay $70K odd for a pick up to go pig shooting with??

[vanman_75]

to me buying a gt-p over a gt would not be justifiable ,looks same ,goes the same ,not much different at all ,back in the day i imagine the decision would be the same between gt &gtho .the extra coin for no more real cred ,most of these higher end cars have bugger all to offer that people will pay the 10 - 20 k difference .if i wanted a comfy cruiser it would be an xr8 all the way ,but throw some emotion in i would cough up the extra for the gt ,but not the gt-p . and if i want luxury its a very big jump from a g6et to a gt-e .and at the end of the day i have a slow nissan patrol ,why because it suits my life style .and i wanted as little as i could in it before making it a povo pack ,not in to airbags and pretty lights .money is not a factor in a purchase for me though i do try to deal a bit i buy what i need /want but its hard for a car to stand out these days compared to lower models as most have all you could want from entry .why pay double for f all unless you have image problems ?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by XRQTR

The GT-P is essentially a made to order vehicle, in that they only build what they have a deposit for, so it wouldn't be difficult to shuffle it in.

But then watch all the people that can't afford a HO cry about the GT-P being removed from the line up because they want something a little better than a GT.

What they need is a company that is willing to build to order, FPV want volume, then the fabled HO will once again become a reality, sure it might cost almost as much as a Ferrari (base model LOL) but it will be hand built made to order. Throw in some exotic construction material in the floorpan and chassis unit, take off about 500kg, mid mount the engine, turn it into a two door, lower the roof and hip lines of the car, bolt in some adjustable features like suspension and a partially removable roll cage ala GT3 RS, how about 20"x12" rear tyres and wheels with 19"x10" front full carbon kevlar wheels, kevlar ceramic brakes..........

Are people willing to pay a 20% premium for the privilige of made to order on the current line-up? my feeling is no, otherwise higher spec FPV models would be outselling the base spec FPV cars.. your "utopic" GTHO would be a $350K proposition in that format.

Originally Posted by XRQTR

I think you get the point, FPV are not in the business of building cars, they are in the business of marketing.

Like I said FPV build to a profit margin, quarterly projections and even shareholders I guess, until they build what the buyers are asking for they will never see the sales they aspire to.

Yep, just like every other good business who's purpose is to make a profit and keep share holders and stake holders happy, the difference is car companies use vehicles as the means to do it, Sunnycrust use breed, Cadbury's use chocolate...

Originally Posted by XRQTR

HSV will always outsell FPV for the simple reason that they are willing to lose some money occasionally in order to build passion in people, even if they only release 100 production models it is all about the desirability. The W427 might not sell many units but everyone here seems to use it whenever they talk about having the nads to go out and just do it for the people.

The F6 R spec was a prime example, instead of giving it an extra 20kw and some supportive seats as well as suspension they gave it slightly better shocks and threw in some floor mats and a badge. Most would have been happy to pay an extra $10K should they have actually gone and done what needed to be done, but once again, they fell short.
.

HSV have a larger brand loyal following, its that simple.
Its no good having bragging rights if you're loosing money doing it...
I seriously doubt a F6"R" with 20kw extra would sell for 10k more if it cant outsell the GT already.. in fact i doubt they'd move 50.... especially with the way the tuners are extracting power at a fraction of that.

[TUF_302]

Not a huge win but, a wins a win i spose!

[flappist]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Are people willing to pay a 20% premium for the privilige of made to order on the current line-up? my feeling is no, otherwise higher spec FPV models would be outselling the base spec FPV cars.. your "utopic" GTHO would be a $350K proposition in that format.


Yep, just like every other good business who's purpose is to make a profit and keep share holders and stake holders happy, the difference is car companies use vehicles as the means to do it, Sunnycrust use breed, Cadbury's use chocolate...


HSV have a larger brand loyal following, its that simple.
Its no good having bragging rights if you're loosing money doing it...
I seriously doubt a F6"R" with 20kw extra would sell for 10k more if it cant outsell the GT already.. in fact i doubt they'd move 50.... especially with the way the tuners are extracting power at a fraction of that.

Actually it goes back even further than that. The BA XR6T and XR8 had an optional brake package that was the same as the BA GT/Pursuit. I saw one once at a trade show. I have never seen one since.

So it would seem that even XR buyers were not all that interested in options either. On the other hand FE1 or whatever it is called suspension was an option on similar commys and is very common.

I agree with the F6R point, the F6 RSpec was not a howling success nor was the Force6.

It is interesting to note that with the utes the contrary case prevails. The more expensive Super Pursuit outsells the Pursuit significantly.

I wonder if that would still be the result if the models were GT-P Ute and GT Ute respectively.

[FTE72]

Originally Posted by flappist

Actually it goes back even further than that. The BA XR6T and XR8 had an optional brake package that was the same as the BA GT/Pursuit. I saw one once at a trade show. I have never seen one since.

So it would seem that even XR buyers were not all that interested in options either. On the other hand FE1 or whatever it is called suspension was an option on similar commys and is very common.

I agree with the F6R point, the F6 RSpec was not a howling success nor was the Force6.

It is interesting to note that with the utes the contrary case prevails. The more expensive Super Pursuit outsells the Pursuit significantly.

I wonder if that would still be the result if the models were GT-P Ute and GT Ute respectively.

I have to agree, and can totally see your point. I for one like the better specs on a GT-E but I would rather just have GT on the badge. I think that you are correct in implying the badge is the greatest factor.
As you say, the Super Pursuit outsells the Pursuit. The name is where it is at.


IMO!

[XRQTR]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Are people willing to pay a 20% premium for the privilige of made to order on the current line-up? my feeling is no, otherwise higher spec FPV models would be outselling the base spec FPV cars.. your "utopic" GTHO would be a $350K proposition in that format.

Well obviously there are people out their that do otherwise we wouldn't see them on the road.

As for $350K, I was thinking maybe closer to $500K.

Originally Posted by 4vman

Yep, just like every other good business who's purpose is to make a profit and keep share holders and stake holders happy, the difference is car companies use vehicles as the means to do it, Sunnycrust use breed, Cadbury's use chocolate...

Hmmm, ye well why not tell that to Ferrari, Lamborghini, Bugatti, and a handful of other niche market producers that are doing quite well from it.

Originally Posted by 4man

HSV have a larger brand loyal following, its that simple.
Its no good having bragging rights if you're loosing money doing it...
I seriously doubt a F6"R" with 20kw extra would sell for 10k more if it cant outsell the GT already.. in fact i doubt they'd move 50.... especially with the way the tuners are extracting power at a fraction of that.

Correct.

They do have a larger following, why though?? You can shout but can you actually think, let's see

The F6-R would sell if it got what people asked for, no it wouldn't be a huge seller I never said it would, but paople are only asking for what is already in the parts bin not something totally exotic or new. As for tuners that extract power, well why not argue that people should be buying XR6Ts and upgrading them. This is for those that don't wish to modify or salary sacrifice or hire purchase or lease there cars, they want something extra without having to worry about the end of the contract and replacing all the stock gear.



Pointless arguments as always, but then why would anyone expect more from yourself, it's as though all you ever seem to do on these forums is find an argument and push the other person until they have a go, such a waste of talent.

[excopau]

Did anyone notice, it isnt 2 to one sales anymore for gt to f6 its alot closer, so maybe the f6 will become the top sales car for fpv, gt wasnt build every year from 1979 on, until 2002/3, so it lost alot of pride and history in that time. 697 GTs, 174 GTPs, 81 GTEs, 537 F6 sedans, 154 F6 Utes, so seeing as ute and sedans are both f6's now doesnt that make, 691 f6's to 697 gt's??????

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by excopau

Did anyone notice, it isnt 2 to one sales anymore for gt to f6 its alot closer, so maybe the f6 will become the top sales car for fpv, gt wasnt build every year from 1979 on, until 2002/3, so it lost alot of pride and history in that time. 697 GTs, 174 GTPs, 81 GTEs, 537 F6 sedans, 154 F6 Utes, so seeing as ute and sedans are both f6's now doesnt that make, 691 f6's to 697 gt's??????

Any particular reason you've excluded the GT-p and GT-e as well as Pursuit and S Pursuit utes in your "combined" analysis??
The original "gist" was V8 FPV v I6T FPV sales...
So really its 1160 to 691, pretty close to that consistant 2:1 isnt it...

Which raises a bigger question... WHY? Why do the V8 FPV's still outsell the I6T FPV's 2:1?
Ive got my ideas.....

[galaxy xr8]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Any particular reason you've excluded the GT-p and GT-e as well as Pursuit and S Pursuit utes in your "combined" analysis??
The original "gist" was V8 FPV v I6T FPV sales...
So really its 1160 to 691, pretty close to that consistant 2:1 isnt it...

Which raises a bigger question... WHY? Why do the V8 FPV's still outsell the I6T FPV's 2:1?
Ive got my ideas.....

Because people are more concerned about their purchase being an allrounder, ie, Grand Tourer, which is what the V8 FPV models are in my eyes, and the namesake, who can go past the wording "GT".

[mrbaxr6t]

Not everybody aspires to own a GT, sorry guys but the six cylinder turbo cars are just better, they have more power are faster from a standing gallop at the same time consuming less fuel when driven tame. They have all the mod cons of a GT in a F6. I aspired to own what I have now and that is an XR6 turbo. GT in my opinion is dead, there is no longer the mystique it once had. It has been slowly dying for the last 20 years and will likely continue to do so. The money isn't available for ford Aus to build a proper GT, and if they did the other models will be a whisker behind it in both performance and comfort so it will not likely draw buyers from buying a XR8.

Now lets flash back to the phase three and what it was competing against, the gap in performance, luxury, and standing gallop times back to the next step down in the model line was very wide. Its not like you could get a GTHO that did a 12.9 sec quarter and a fairmont say that did same quarter in like 13.1 for 1/3rd less money. If this was the case the mighty phase three would have struggled to gain sales when placed alongside other vehicles from the ford stable. This is the problem facing the GT today, other cars in the Ford stable are just too good when compared.

flame suit on!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

Not everybody aspires to own a GT, sorry guys but the six cylinder turbo cars are just better, they have more power are faster from a standing gallop at the same time consuming less fuel when driven tame. They have all the mod cons of a GT in a F6. I aspired to own what I have now and that is an XR6 turbo. GT in my opinion is dead, there is no longer the mystique it once had. It has been slowly dying for the last 20 years and will likely continue to do so. The money isn't available for ford Aus to build a proper GT, and if they did the other models will be a whisker behind it in both performance and comfort so it will not likely draw buyers from buying a XR8.

Now lets flash back to the phase three and what it was competing against, the gap in performance, luxury, and standing gallop times back to the next step down in the model line was very wide. Its not like you could get a GTHO that did a 12.9 sec quarter and a fairmont say that did same quarter in like 13.1 for 1/3rd less money. If this was the case the mighty phase three would have struggled to gain sales when placed alongside other vehicles from the ford stable. This is the problem facing the GT today, other cars in the Ford stable are just too good when compared.

flame suit on!

If the V8 GT is dead then why does it still consistantly outsell the I6T offerings 2:1?
Sure the I6T is a better performer, but if you combine FPV and HSV sales numbers its even more comprehensive that the V8 is far from dead, in fact you could argue that the I6T is ineffective at winning the sales race, despite its performance "advantages"?

[mrbaxr6t]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

If the V8 GT is dead then why does it still consistantly outsell the I6T offerings 2:1?
Sure the I6T is a better performer, but if you combine FPV and HSV sales numbers its even more comprehensive that the V8 is far from dead, in fact you could argue that the I6T is ineffective at winning the sales race, despite its performance "advantages"?

sorry if you compare all six cylinder ford and holdens versus the v8 fords and holdens then I am pretty sure the humble six cylinder would come up trumps.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

If the V8 GT is dead then why does it still consistantly outsell the I6T offerings 2:1?
Sure the I6T is a better performer, but if you combine FPV and HSV sales numbers its even more comprehensive that the V8 is far from dead, in fact you could argue that the I6T is ineffective at winning the sales race, despite its performance "advantages"?

Correct. In the performance cars the V8 is beating the I6T.
So does that mean the I6T should be the first engine dropped from FoA's Arsenal?

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

sorry if you compare all six cylinder ford and holdens versus the v8 fords and holdens then I am pretty sure the humble six cylinder would come up trumps.

That's a completely different topic though isnt it... we're talking FPV/HSV performance vehicles here.

[mrbaxr6t]

in the 70's (phase three era) most everything had a v8 engine, six cylinders sold stuffall in comparison, this trend has reversed. Even the base model cars had v8s and sold well. Not anymore.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Correct. In the performance cars the V8 is beating the I6T.
So does that mean the I6T should be the first engine dropped from FoA's Arsenal?

Not at all.. thankgod FPV have the I6T too.. imagine the sales figues without it?
Ive long believed FPV have tapped into a different market segment and demographic with the F6, i think the majority of F6 owners would be driving something Japanese if it wasnt for the F6, they arent V8 customers anyway, F6 has been largely incremental business for FPV..
Yes i know some have swapped from a V8 to te F6, but this is a Ford enthusiasts forum... its not a true reflection of the wider world...

Originally Posted by mrbaxr6t

in the 70's (phase three era) most everything had a v8 engine, six cylinders sold stuffall in comparison, this trend has reversed. Even the base model cars had v8s and sold well. Not anymore.

Stil doesnt explain the I6Ts poor sales showing V V8's though does it.

[XRQTR]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

i think the majority of F6 owners would be driving something Japanese if it wasnt for the F6, they arent V8 customers anyway,

Hehem, care to look at my rides in my sig :

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by XRQTR

Hehem, care to look at my rides in my sig :

Yeah, 260Z, something japanese!!!

[mrbaxr6t]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Yeah, 260Z, something japanese!!!

something tells me you hate rotaries as well huh? Sorry 4vman but the fight is over technology has won.

[Falcon Coupe]

The topic is whats over, well over.

[Gobes32]

The problem with saying one motor is better than the other is that it's largely based on opinion. I would aspire to own a V8, but, I really do think the I6T is a fantastic motor and that the F6 and G6ET are models us Ford fans should be very proud of.

My thought process is that more GT's are sold due to the lower price entry point. We all have champagne taste but some of us have a beer budget, some of us only have a fruity lexia budget.......... But with the GT starting at X amount of dollars, it gives the common man a chance to be a proud FPV owner. If you have the coin and a more refined taste, the the GT-P and GT-E are always there to sway your spending dollars. At the end of the day, if FPV only offered one model or only one set amount of cylinders, we would flame them for not offering enough choice to us fans and forcing us to shop elsewhere.

[XR Martin]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

If the V8 GT is dead then why does it still consistantly outsell the I6T offerings 2:1?
Sure the I6T is a better performer, but if you combine FPV and HSV sales numbers its even more comprehensive that the V8 is far from dead, in fact you could argue that the I6T is ineffective at winning the sales race, despite its performance "advantages"?

Theres two I6T models, versus five V8 models
Then theres a new V8 special edition every other year (5th Anniversary, 40th, Cobra)

Hell im sure if you could get a Super Tornado, F6-E, F6-P, 5th Anniversary F6, etc etxc the sales would be far from being lop sided.