FPV Sportswagon. - Page 3

4Vman · 07-03-2009, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Originally yes, but the wagon didn't stop selling, so Ford have continued with it. They expected the Territory to steal wagon sales but it didn't happen.

The answer to this is easy to work out. Just look at the figures.

Ford sell something like 400 BFIII wagons a month.

Holden have sold around 1000 Sportwagons at its peak after release. Those numbers have probably dropped down to maybe 800ish, and will continue to drop.

So the difference between Falcon wagon and Sportwagon is around 400 a month. Holdens usually sell in higher numbers than Falcon.

So Ford may only sell around 500-600 FG wagons a month if they go that way. Fleets may actually stop buying it because its not as practical as the BF wagon.

So basically Ford will not really gain any extra sales if they release an FG wagon, and if anything they will lose money on it due to the very high development costs.

This clearly show why its an extremely dumb idea to make an FG Sportwagon and the simple reason why Ford haven't done it.

Thread closed.

EXACTLY....

4Vman · 07-03-2009, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowEL2XR8

Yes mate its a nice rock I live under.

Why do so many people attack other in these forums. "Oh not another of a thousand of the exact same threads" "What an idiot no one would buy a FPV wagon" "What is this guy thinking he has no clue"

Sorry for having an opinion.
You guys are all experts on everything. Can't someone just express a wish or opinion without being jumped all over.

I was just stating that HSV made a wagon why don't FPV.
Its not really investing any more all the components are there in other cars just bring them together in a wagon.

Here's an idea.. why not just do a search and dredge up one of the thousands of similar threads on the same topic, have a good read of it and if you think you've got a better idea add to that thread....

Here's another question for you.. its one thing to come up with all these "great" model suggestions, but would you ACTUALLY buy one of these "must build" great idea wagons given its potential price tag?????

XRLightening · 07-03-2009, 12:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Originally yes, but the wagon didn't stop selling, so Ford have continued with it. They expected the Territory to steal wagon sales but it didn't happen.

The answer to this is easy to work out. Just look at the figures.

Ford sell something like 400 BFIII wagons a month.

Holden have sold around 1000 Sportwagons at its peak after release. Those numbers have probably dropped down to maybe 800ish, and will continue to drop.

So the difference between Falcon wagon and Sportwagon is around 400 a month. Holdens usually sell in higher numbers than Falcon.

So Ford may only sell around 500-600 FG wagons a month if they go that way. Fleets may actually stop buying it because its not as practical as the BF wagon.

So basically Ford will not really gain any extra sales if they release an FG wagon, and if anything they will lose money on it due to the very high development costs.

This clearly show why its an extremely dumb idea to make an FG Sportwagon and the simple reason why Ford haven't done it.

Thread closed.

Cool thanks for the info....

XR6_190 · 07-03-2009, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowEL2XR8

I was just stating that HSV made a wagon why don't FPV.

Because HSV will not make any money on their wagon, so why would FPV make hte same mistake?

DoreSlamR · 07-03-2009, 04:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6_190

Because HSV will not make any money on their wagon, so why would FPV make hte same mistake?

Could this be why Holden/GM are in trouble and Ford are not so much?

Edit: Obviously not JUST the wagon, I mean the overall attitude.

4Vman · 07-03-2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoreSlamR

Could this be why Holden/GM are in trouble and Ford are not so much?

Edit: Obviously not JUST the wagon, I mean the overall attitude.

Keeping fanboys happy with "eye candy" comes at a cost, Holden/HSV have always taken more risks with niche/obscure model releases.. unfortunately they don't always pay off, especially during tough economic times..
Ford on the other hand are far more conservative and will not take allot of risks.

XR6_190 · 07-03-2009, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoreSlamR

Could this be why Holden/GM are in trouble and Ford are not so much?

Edit: Obviously not JUST the wagon, I mean the overall attitude.

That actually is a part of it, GM and Ford have often fallen into the trap of marketing vehicles to a specific small niche, It is actually the complete opposite of what everybody says is wrong with the big three, It is NOT about making cars people want, it IS about making cars that are profitable, Holden haven't been doing this, but Ford have started doing it.

Look at some of the cars Holden have made in recent years, the One Tonner, the Monaro, the Crewman, the Adventra. They have all cost them a bucket to produce, but they have never got much of a return for them. Meanwhile, I bet at the time of their release, the same people that are now calling for a Ford FG Sportwagon were calling for a 4 door Falcon ute, and a 2 door Falcon, I want them too, but I have accepted the fact that they aren't going to make Ford money, so Ford aren't going to build them. (Yes I do realise that Ford also make a one tonner version of the Falcon ute, but it is on the same chassis variant as the regular Falcon ute, the Holden one tonner was a specific chassis variant.)

And as others have said, sure lot's of people might be calling out for a FG sportwagon now, but how many people would actually buy one new? not many, actually they would be lucky if in total it was over the 1000 mark, and that just doesn't make it viable.

seduced_xr · 07-03-2009, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowEL2XR8

Wagon concept is far from over.
I was looking at a Territory but it does not have the room the wagon does. I have three kids under 18 months old and after filling up the back seat with baby seats I need the space of a wagon to make the car useful. I looked at the Terry and thought what a waste there is no room in the boot to make it any good for me. I dare say the same for others with only 2 kids.

I'd definitely buy a XR8 or XR6 turbo wagon or a FPV wagon if I had the extra coin.

i looked at a wagon side by side a terry last night ... i thought the wagon had less space.

LowEL2XR8 · 07-03-2009, 07:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by seduced_xr

i looked at a wagon side by side a terry last night ... i thought the wagon had less space.

Try fitting a twin pram and a single pram and two weeks worth of shopping in the boot of both. Was going to get a Terry until I realised the boot isn't big enough for my needs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6_190

Because HSV will not make any money on their wagon, so why would FPV make hte same mistake?

I don't believe that HSV make a loss especially at the price of the thing. Maybe they don't make as much profit as they would like but its still profitable.

I would just like a wagon that is not pov pack. Some nicer options would be great. Manual for a start.
Turbo 6 or V8
Better interior.

Get rid of the leaf springs and have some you beaut heavy independent suspension back end. LSD.

Oh my dreams.

:

SM1DY · 07-03-2009, 08:05 PM

I don't think that this wagon will ever happen, unless they stop making a car that looks like it can carry a coffin. If they can get past this, then LowEL's idea of a turbo 6 or V8 wagon isnt so insane.

Can't see a manual option across the range, but on a XR6/T or an XR8 it makes sense to give it a sportier appearance in comparison to it's more bland brothers.

uranium_death · 07-03-2009, 08:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uranium_death

Here is a post I put in earlier.

I reckon it sums it up.

Originally Posted by uranium_death
Firstly, there isn't the money to develop a new model. Ford's future here or in the US is still not safe.

Secondly, Ford has the Territory, which covers the family market well enough and as stated by many on here, is a fantastic all-round car. Why steal sales from it with two vehicles that are similar in dimensions, interior space, performance, as well as targeted demographic?

Thirdly, there is already a wagon, and it cost next to nothing to update from BFII to BFIII, and has its own niche market. It may not be pretty, but it gets the job done. Holden had to have a wagon, since the Captiva was not the success Holden had hoped it would be.

As nice and rosey as the VE may be, I am not convinced that it's making a massive difference to Holden sales.

When they have to take the price down several thousand only months after release, that is probably a sign that it isn't selling like hotcakes and therefore difficult to recoup the costs.

Ford is playing it smart.

If Ford released a similar wagon, would you buy it? Many people who say, "I want Ford to make a sportswagon" will never buy one. It's just eye-candy and a case of "monkey-see, monkey-do" between Holden and Ford.

Right now, Ford should keep the current line-up.

People still not getting it.

So I'll repost this again.

BOSSGT302 · 07-03-2009, 09:09 PM

U/Death, never a truer word said, the Territory has sold well, been well spoken of and yes does the job very well in meeting market expectation. Ford doesn't need a sports wagon, FX6 will do the job fine.

:

ehast13 · 07-03-2009, 09:19 PM

Okay, I've said this sort of thing on another thread before but... Ford has recouped it's development money on the BFIII wagon. It spent 50 million (Ford's words) on tooling/r&D when the shape released at AU time. The back end has stayed the same and (apart from some unique, wagon-only, upgrades) has just copped sedan/lwb/ute upgrades. By now, the wagon is pure cash cow. If Ford sells 400 per month (that is 4800 per year) then they are making pretty decent profit off of it.

Ford can stick to its current ho-hum wagon range or it could try releasing a 'halo' vehicle.

The Halo vehicle would have to be low cost and use mostly existing parts. The choices would be a G6E type vehicle or xr6 type vehicle.

An Xr6 wagon could use existing BFII Xr6 front treatment (with that fancy ltd edition grey accents treatment), front suspension, seat trim etc with XR6 ute rear spring/shock upgrade. It would be a bit agricultural compared to VE but could still carry a load (hello reps looking for something a bit nicer). Leave the rear bumper as it is and have a new side skirt made up.

It would cost little (comparitively speaking) and might increase sales by 100 per month. At the very least, it would give the rest of the range a halo car to take away the dagginess a bit. It might even keep a few buyers who were going to convert to VE coz they couldn't stand another XT econotaxibox.

That's just my idea. What you guys think?

Whitey-AMG · 07-03-2009, 09:30 PM

Seems to me that most private buyers of "wagon" type cars are locked into buying SUV style. Just look at the number of Terri's , X Trails, Rav 4 , CRV and Freddy Krugers on the road.

SUV's are cool..........station wagons are not..........simple marketing but over the years it has created a real strong lifestyle image that the humble station wagon can never hope to regain.

If I was FORD.........I'd be making sure that the new Terri stays and performs REAL WELL on Diesel and LPG.........no use investing in a wagon that needs more marketing $$$$$$ than R & D $$$ thrown at it. We'd only see an absolute lemon created.

XR6_190 · 07-03-2009, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SM1DY

I don't think that this wagon will ever happen, unless they stop making a car that looks like it can carry a coffin. If they can get past this, then LowEL's idea of a turbo 6 or V8 wagon isnt so insane.

The problem with that is, Ford are making too much money off the 'Coffin carrier' to ditch it. If they spend money on that, then that is money they aren't spending on something that is going to sell in big numbers, like a diesel Terri'. What Uranium Death has said is spot on.

GTP290 · 07-03-2009, 09:58 PM

I actually own a Territory TX 2WD, you cannot compare the Holden Sportswagon to the Territory in terms of space, theres not enough room in the back of those things! As for handling, the Territory is a solid performer for its size and weight, it accelarates and pulls up extremely well, its a fantastic car!
Ford should be given a lot of credit for designing and manufacturing this car in Australia, and not going the cheap route and putting a six cylinder engine in an imported model and trying to flog it off as Australias own like another manufacturer who pulls the wool over peoples eyes, what a croc!

Buzz Box · 07-03-2009, 10:17 PM

I think only one other person has had the same thought........

How much would it actually cost to make a say XR8 wagon? They got the body, they got the body kit, they got the engine, they got the interior.

How much extra would it cost to simply put a body kit on a car and a different interior on the line when they are putting interiors in anyways??

It couldn't be that hard really could it...........??

Gobes32 · 07-03-2009, 10:32 PM

The BFIII bonnet does not support a "sports" style bumper arrangement. I.E The BFIII has a reverse curve in the hood as opposed to the "XR" series hoods which had the standard rise in the center. Therefore the bumper will not fit the hood and grill arrangement. In the old days, the ute and wagon shared the XR body kit. This is no longer the case. Ford could almost produce a turbo wagon, but the ADR costs would kill them, i.e, crash protection, pedestrian safety, etc. Also, they do not have an upmarket wagon interior to match the upmarket motor.

**Fordman1** · 07-03-2009, 10:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzz Box

I think only one other person has had the same thought........

How much would it actually cost to make a say XR8 wagon? They got the body, they got the body kit, they got the engine, they got the interior.

How much extra would it cost to simply put a body kit on a car and a different interior on the line when they are putting interiors in anyways??

It couldn't be that hard really could it...........??

Mmmmmm..........

Here we go.

The Boss 5.4 has never been fitted to the Wagon body.

Crash tests need to be done.

The transmission's have never been fitted to that body.

No...there is no Wagon XR spec interior.

No...there is no Wagon body kit.

How many will they sell ? two ?

Will you buy one ? Lets say for $48,000 over all the other vehicles out there ?

This would cost several of Million !!! There isn't nor was there 'ever' money for rubbish like this !!!

ehast13 · 07-03-2009, 11:29 PM

So....
why not an XR6? No driveline mods except diff ratio. BFII xr front (not a BFII XT with funky modded bumper, just plain old bfII xr front with grey accents from that runout model they did. Slightly modded side skirts (or matching grey accent decal on existing skirt/sill cover). XR front seats (common with sedan). Auto only.

Very little cost to ford (all existing fomoco parts), No crash testing. no dramas.
Keeep it below 40k
Does Holden have an SV6 wagon?

It would be good to see a 'halo' car in the wagon range. A low cost, rugged wagon with a bit of appeal.

Ford did it with the XG, XH xr6 series and people bought them.

It kept a few people out of SS and S and Maloo commodore utes. It made driving one a little bit less daggy.

Knock out 250 and see how long they take to sell. Do one up with big wheels and stereo and show it at motor shows and stereo comps. If they sell within six months (a bit under fifty per month or 10-12% of wagin sales) then make it a regular production model.

Not much cost. Doubtful it would take sales from Territory, might keep some reps out of commie wagons, make driving a BFIII xt a little less daggy too.

You know it makes sense. I'm Sam Kekovitch,

**Grunter** · 07-03-2009, 11:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowEL2XR8

Try fitting a twin pram and a single pram and two weeks worth of shopping in the boot of both. Was going to get a Terry until I realised the boot isn't big enough for my needs.

I to have 3 kids under 3 years old with all the associated gear and have absolutely no problems fitting a twin pram, single pram, the groceries and a metric ton of the normal other kids crap we carry around daily in the Territory.

The difference in boot size between the Territory and the wagon is less than 100lt (1260lt for the wagon and 1153lt for the Territory), and that small boot space advantage for the wagon is fast forgotten when you compare all the other benefits the Territory has over the wagon. Like ease of loading the kids in and out of the car seats, cabin space, vehicle dynamics, features, available options, etc.

Just my opinion, I can understand why the wagon is a good sales rep car, but as a family car in comparison to the Territory, it's not in the same league.

4Vman · 08-03-2009, 02:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehast13

So....
why not an XR6? No driveline mods except diff ratio. BFII xr front (not a BFII XT with funky modded bumper, just plain old bfII xr front with grey accents from that runout model they did. Slightly modded side skirts (or matching grey accent decal on existing skirt/sill cover). XR front seats (common with sedan). Auto only.

Very little cost to ford (all existing fomoco parts), No crash testing. no dramas.
Keeep it below 40k
Does Holden have an SV6 wagon?

It would be good to see a 'halo' car in the wagon range. A low cost, rugged wagon with a bit of appeal.

Ford did it with the XG, XH xr6 series and people bought them.

It kept a few people out of SS and S and Maloo commodore utes. It made driving one a little bit less daggy.

Knock out 250 and see how long they take to sell. Do one up with big wheels and stereo and show it at motor shows and stereo comps. If they sell within six months (a bit under fifty per month or 10-12% of wagin sales) then make it a regular production model.

Not much cost. Doubtful it would take sales from Territory, might keep some reps out of commie wagons, make driving a BFIII xt a little less daggy too.

FFS READ whats been posted before you post... ok???

azaxr8 · 08-03-2009, 06:10 AM

To many people saying they will buy one. In order for them to bring out performance line then start buying the xts.... if they see a big enough market worth upgrading then they would.

**Fordman1** · 08-03-2009, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehast13

So....
why not an XR6? No driveline mods except diff ratio. BFII xr front (not a BFII XT with funky modded bumper, just plain old bfII xr front with grey accents from that runout model they did. Slightly modded side skirts (or matching grey accent decal on existing skirt/sill cover). XR front seats (common with sedan). Auto only.

Very little cost to ford (all existing fomoco parts), No crash testing. no dramas.
Keeep it below 40k
Does Holden have an SV6 wagon?

It would be good to see a 'halo' car in the wagon range. A low cost, rugged wagon with a bit of appeal.

Ford did it with the XG, XH xr6 series and people bought them.

It kept a few people out of SS and S and Maloo commodore utes. It made driving one a little bit less daggy.

Knock out 250 and see how long they take to sell. Do one up with big wheels and stereo and show it at motor shows and stereo comps. If they sell within six months (a bit under fifty per month or 10-12% of wagin sales) then make it a regular production model.

Not much cost. Doubtful it would take sales from Territory, might keep some reps out of commie wagons, make driving a BFIII xt a little less daggy too.

You know it makes sense. I'm Sam Kekovitch,

Oh Dear..........................

Bossxr8 · 08-03-2009, 11:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LowEL2XR8

I don't believe that HSV make a loss especially at the price of the thing. Maybe they don't make as much profit as they would like but its still profitable.

The HSV Tourer might make a profit ie. it will make more money than it cost to build when they sell one, but when you factor in the high R&D costs that it cost to put into production then it has to sell a certain numbers of units before the R&D is paid off, so unless it reaches that number then it isn't profitable.

So unless the original investment is paid of then its not profitable. Exactly what happened with Crewman, Adventra and One tonner. They never made any money because they didn't sell in high enough numbers to cover the R&D costs to put them on the road, hence they were dropped from sale.

prydey · 08-03-2009, 11:11 AM

they're not that ugly! i don't see why all of a sudden the wagons are considered so out of date when only a few months ago it was currnt styling. fair enough the rear is carry over from au but its a wagon, designed with a specific purpose. to carry more stuff than a sedan.

people bag the leaf spring rear and the lack of acronyms associated with the wagon (dsc, tc, etc). not sure how people managed to stay on the road 5 years ago without the computer aids!!

i've had wagons for years. i've even owned an ef xr6 wagon, however i'm with u/death and 4vman and others on this issue. there is no market for anything other than what they are selling. they even stopped doing the futura wagon which shows that even that wasn't worth the extra cost.

i'm glad they still make the bf2/3 though. i've only had mine for 3 months and am yet to have a towbar fitted. picked up a 8.0kg washing machine yesterday and just shoved it in the rear. that was after the wife kept telling me it wouldn't fit.

try doing that with a commo 'hatch'!!

also obviously this is the end of the line for me as far as ford wagons go. when i next come to upgrade i'll be buying a sedan. i don't like suv's and will never buy one. i'm sure i'm not alone. comments earlier in the thread saying that wagon owners are still in the 70's are very naive!!

Bossxr8 · 08-03-2009, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Buzz Box

I think only one other person has had the same thought........

How much would it actually cost to make a say XR8 wagon? They got the body, they got the body kit, they got the engine, they got the interior.

How much extra would it cost to simply put a body kit on a car and a different interior on the line when they are putting interiors in anyways??

It couldn't be that hard really could it...........??

Why do people assume they can just throw an engine or whatever into a car and then put it into production. It takes months of development to do it, you need specific wiring looms and parts, then they all have to be developed to production spec, tested and then certified. Then it might need crash testing, because the wagon has never had a 5.4 in it, then it will need to pass noise and emmisions tests, remember the exhaust will be unique for the wagon, then it will all need to pass Fords NVH criteria. Its a massive amount of work and lots of money. Its not as simple as just throwing a new engine in and off they go.

Every single variant needs this level of testing. And its the reason why Ford will never make these niche models that would probabaly sell in single figures anyway. They would never make back the R&D money it would cost to put them on the road.

They tried to do it with the ED and EF XR6 wagons and they didn't sell. What makes you think they would sell now when the BF wagon probably sells half as much as the ED/EF wagons did. Back then they were popular, now they aren't.

Sheeesh.

Road_Warrior · 08-03-2009, 11:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prydey

I've never been a fan of the BFII look, but that is one nice looking wagon.

ehast13 · 08-03-2009, 12:54 PM

Well how about an SR wagon. Colour coded bump strips, nice rims, Maybe even BFII ghia driving lights in the bumper. Little R&D, Just a slightly nicer wagon. I reckon an XR6 wagon would be cooler and it too would need very little R&D. How about a half way compromise - a BFIII S pack.

50 per month to fleet reps looking for something slightly nicer than an econotaxihearsebox would be a relatively easy sell. They managed to sell EF XR6 wagons at 30 per month and they needed more mods than a potential BFIII xr6 wagon. it seems possible and reasonably cost effective (XG S pack ute, anyone).

If it keeps people out of Commie wagons and makes the wagon cooler and uses existing parts (e.g. no change in drivetrain, no crash testing, no new parts) then what is the problem?

A change to sales brochures, a story in local paper, A story in Wheels, Motor or AMC.

Geez, I'm not suggesting re-engineering anything (e.g plonking the V8 in the wagon, or a whole new vehicle) just an extra value package that needs very little.

There is no reasonably priced sporty territory (i.e under 40k). Reps often have some say in what they drive. Surely they would prefer something a little bit nicer that would have better resale and looks better in carpark, to customers, to the neighbours etc.

S, SR, XR6 are all possible under 40k value packs - Some negative comments about my posts but not alot of considered rebuttal of my ideas.

XR6_190 · 08-03-2009, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ehast13

S, SR, XR6 are all possible under 40k value packs - Some negative comments about my posts but not alot of considered rebuttal of my ideas.

Look it is simple, Ford don't care if people think the BFIII Wagon is cool or not, the way they see it is simple, it sells perfectly fine the way it is, Ford do not want to invest anything in a car that is perfectly sustainable the way it is.