3 more young lives lost....

[bingoTE50]

Originally Posted by MAV50L

Advanced driving courses are a double edged sword.
People who have done will will push harder on the roads because they have been trained and think they know what they are doing.
Totally different environment but when you do come unstuck on a surburban road compared to a skid pan.
Years ago when the advanced driving courses started to become to thing to do a photocopier service company in Sydney put all their service drivers through one as their insurance company offered a discount on their fleet insurance if they all did it.
In the next 12 months the companies claims actually increased by 300% as the drivers pushed harder because they knew what to do.
Imagine giving a 18 year old who knows everything anyway that extra knowledge............. some times too much education and knowledge can be even more dangerous.

Sorry buddy I cannot agree.
Too much generalisation in your quote.
The advanced driver courses that Ian Luff conduct are stepped .
First is a Driver Safety course . ( theory and practical)
Second is advanced car control.
Very informative days and thought provoking.
The safety course revolves around defensive driving that gives punters the knowledge of what can happen and how to react in the situation.
You don't just fang a car around a skidpan .
Perhaps the increase of claims via the copier company was as a result of one particular driver ? I cannot comprehend that the majority of their external employees ,after a advanced driving course,became reckless on the roads ....surely not.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by MAV50L

I totally understand the points raised by both 4V man and Falcon Coupe and yes they are both correct.
Hey I can even get my 5.0 NF to break traction at 60km in the wet if I stand on it and they are no rocket ship. Also having driven my brothers XR6T on more then one occasion when he had it I agree they are lethal in the dry much less the wet.
The media will just clutch onto the fact that it is a high performance car and roll with it as thats what the public laps up.
They wont go on about dim witted young driver attitudes , because thats pointing the bone and pointing blame at people.
The accident down the south coast last week didnt get a lot of coverage because it couldnt be beaten up to their standards.
Dont worry about the fact that the girl driving was a P plater , was speeding and had more people in the car then she was allowed.
It was just a tragic accident as it was a Hyundai Excel she was driving...................
They seem to only clutch atthe male driving a high performance car bit and the dumb sheep public lap it up.......................

Let the media "beat it up", the more publicity the better, just like making it a topic on here, i can't see the problem with that if it rubs some peoples noses in it, so be it.

The message needs to get out there loud and clear, bad driving attitude and behaviour isnt acceptable.

[mrbaxr6t]

This kind of junk infuriates me the young just dont get it on so many levels not just road safety its everything they do, on the topic of road related things not so long ago I was driving my wifes' focus XR5T white stripe on blue and it (the car) seemed to inspire such stupid behavior from others this particular day one bloke decided it was pertinent to travel at god knows how fast to catch up to me just to slow down and eyeball me and the car then take off in a cloud of exhaust smoke - I can assure everybody I was doing nothing wrong I was driving down the highway in slow lane at the posted speed limit seat belt on and all, and as if this wasnt bad enough another car this time a holden crewman emblazoned with company logos and phone numbers was speeding just to sit beside me while the three in the car looked at my car and laughed before being stopped at a set of lights and ripping a skid I mean honestly have we bought a "moron magnet" or something I just don't get their behavior at all, with this kind of mentality "I am better than you" and the materialistic world in which we live where so much weight is given to a persons' character based on the material things they own encourages people to "have bigger better faster" than the other guy because that makes you a better person than them in the eyes of others.

When we carry this thinking to cars and youth they must have the best car and they must do more stupid things than everybody else to be viewed as the best or the coolest or the most fooly ****** or whatever they use to describe it nowadays, life is not a contest every second of every day. Despite what the youth of the day seem to think.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Similar to gun licensing laws it should be impossible to purchase restricted vehicles in the first place.... Surely this loophole needs to be closed.

The minute that happens it won't just be the P platers who will not be able to purchase "restricted" vehicles.....

The other half of this idea, AND THIS IS REALLY SCARY......

Did the accident happen BECAUSE it was a XR6T?
If there were no XR6Ts at all would the road be safer? (well it would for GT owners anyway)

Is this a medical problem and all we need to do is increase the Medicare levy for a short time to buy back and crush all "restricted" cars?

It is for the children, you know it makes sense.........

[FPV8U]

Same Thread, Same Arguments, Same Topic, Different Families..

Surely we don't need to go round and round the washing line every time there is a multiple or single fatality on the road with the same argument, we all have our opinions & views, yes they differ from one another but all this is doing is raising post counts on a less than pleasant subject.

If this is going to keep happening perhaps the Mods could have a Sticky thread on 2010 Death Toll and we could just compile it in there and the arguments can reign all year long.

[Jack91]

Where did it say that he was being an idiot? Maybe if it was raining he hydra planed off the road?

[MAV50L]

The bit thatsucks about it all with the beating up of High Performance vehicles is that ultimately it will be us people who have high performance vehicles and behave will end up being the people who suffer due to the dumb mentality of people and the public.
We will suffer from higher insurance premiums , more police presence etc etc and its not us causing the probelm.
Target the people that are the problem not the vehicle they drive.
Cotton wool society we have turned into and are to afraid to call a spade a spade and target the idiots as they can sue. Just target the vehicle as a car cannot sue you. Thats makes it hard for the 98% of the law obiding community that choose to drive a quick car.
It will just turn into another gun issue where the responsibile people have to either jump through hoops to keep their guns or have lost them. Gun crime never dropped from it as the people who will be inclined to do these things still get them anyway.

[ST]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Absolutely Correct... its the sudden avaliability of power and acceleration that is the main problem, not what speed a car can eventually be wound up to do....

You still think acceleration and sudden power is the main issue here? Nearly all P-Platers are very well aware of the power and acceleration of their car and don't just go into shock and drive into a pole when they put their foot down. The problem is what they choose to do with that power and acceleration. Most of these accidents are at speeds exceeding 120kms an hour, at this stage the bulk of the cars acceleration and 'sudden availability' of power is well and truly over and it all comes down to speed and lack of control.

I know you are strongly against P-Platers driving high performance cars and I agree, there is no legitimate reason for them to have these cars. But even if they are restricted to sub 100kw 4 cylinder cars it isn't going to change.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by flappist

The minute that happens it won't just be the P platers who will not be able to purchase "restricted" vehicles.....

The other half of this idea, AND THIS IS REALLY SCARY......

Did the accident happen BECAUSE it was a XR6T?
If there were no XR6Ts at all would the road be safer? (well it would for GT owners anyway)

Is this a medical problem and all we need to do is increase the Medicare levy for a short time to buy back and crush all "restricted" cars?

It is for the children, you know it makes sense.........

I know what you're saying, and you're right, its the step after the new rule that becomes the concern...

[glavas]

really tho what a idiot. the road was wet and it was raining. add a p plater and a xr6t and thats a ticking time bomb. those things go sideways when the roads are dry.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by ST

You still think acceleration and sudden power is the main issue here? Nearly all P-Platers are very well aware of the power and acceleration of their car and don't just go into shock and drive into a pole when they put their foot down. The problem is what they choose to do with that power and acceleration. Most of these accidents are at speeds exceeding 120kms an hour, at this stage the bulk of the cars acceleration and 'sudden availability' of power is well and truly over and it all comes down to speed and lack of control.

I know you are strongly against P-Platers driving high performance cars and I agree, there is no legitimate reason for them to have these cars. But even if they are restricted to sub 100kw 4 cylinder cars it isn't going to change.

You either really just don't it or you are trolling.

Going fast when you realise you are gong fast and are in complete control of the vehicle is not the core of the problem.

A more powerful car can accelerate to a higher speed than you expect more quickly than you expect and while you are processing the information tragedy strikes.

When learning to fly the term is "behind the aircraft".

You are processing information at a much slower rate than it is coming at you therefore you make correcting decisions too late.

The standing joke is "You would be perfectly safe in twin, by the time you caught up to the crash it would have already been cleared off the runway".

In the same way, the wahoo acceleration gets you too close to the corner going too fast before you realise that you have to brake by which time you cannot slow enough to round safely.

It all comes for practice and experience and that can only come with time.

Understanding the problem is the first step towards avoiding it and while you continue to deny it, you are potentially a danger to yourself and other road users.......

[zdcol71]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Same Thread, Same Arguments, Same Topic, Different Families..

Surely we don't need to go round and round the washing line every time there is a multiple or single fatality on the road with the same argument, we all have our opinions & views, yes they differ from one another but all this is doing is raising post counts on a less than pleasant subject.

If this is going to keep happening perhaps the Mods could have a Sticky thread on 2010 Death Toll and we could just compile it in there and the arguments can reign all year long.

If "raising post counts " generates enough talk and ideas to reduce the amount of times we have to discuss this sort of thread, then I'm all for keepin on "round and round the washing line".
The law of averages will dictate that eventually a common cosensus will be reached on how best to reduce this happening

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by DAVO_XR

Where did it say that he was being an idiot? Maybe if it was raining he hydra planed off the road?

In which case he was driving way too fast for the conditions. To drive fast enough to aqua plane off the road, hit the pole fast enough to kill 3 people, with all the safety features of a modern falcon = idiot.

Same Thread, Same Arguments, Same Topic, Different Families..

Surely we don't need to go round and round the washing line every time there is a multiple or single fatality on the road with the same argument, we all have our opinions & views, yes they differ from one another but all this is doing is raising post counts on a less than pleasant subject.

If this is going to keep happening perhaps the Mods could have a Sticky thread on 2010 Death Toll and we could just compile it in there and the arguments can reign all year long.

Perhaps one of these threads has caused one of our members to think again before putting the foot down or running the yellow/red light, thus preventing a crash that would have happened as a result of their other option. In my view that is time well spent and public awareness improved, absolutely worthwhile.

If people do like the topic or think they don't need a reminder, they are not forced to read it. I know I have learnt a few things as a result of these threads, I am sure others have.

[gergless]

Originally Posted by jcxr

I dont know If the rules have changed lately, but there is no loss of points for driving a high powered car on your "P"s, fine only. So what does that sort of look like, money raising? Make 'em walk for 12 months. Any infringment on your "P"s should be automatic pedestrian status.

In NSW it has been 7 points for driving a prohibited vehicle since July 2005. That means a demerit point suspension for 3 months for 1 offence.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Perhaps one of these threads has caused one of our members to think again before putting the foot down or running the yellow/red light, thus preventing a crash that would have happened as a result of their other option. In my view that is time well spent and public awareness improved, absolutely worthwhile.

I didn't say it wasn't worth doing, i said why not compile it in one thread, perhaps 2010 Death Toll & What can be done about it.. would be a good start.

What i meant by raising post count is the same members posting the exact same things as the thread 2-3 Weeks ago, if it was in one thread it would just be repeating ones self would it not.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Same Thread, Same Arguments, Same Topic, Different Families..

Surely we don't need to go round and round the washing line every time there is a multiple or single fatality on the road with the same argument, we all have our opinions & views, yes they differ from one another but all this is doing is raising post counts on a less than pleasant subject.

If this is going to keep happening perhaps the Mods could have a Sticky thread on 2010 Death Toll and we could just compile it in there and the arguments can reign all year long.

NO!! avoiding the topic or being ambevilant to it is sticking your head in the sand... if constantly highlighting the problem makes some younger forum members think a bit more carefully and maturely its a worthwhile exercise....

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by flappist

You either really just don't it or you are trolling.

Going fast when you realise you are gong fast and are in complete control of the vehicle is not the core of the problem.

A more powerful car can accelerate to a higher speed than you expect more quickly than you expect and while you are processing the information tragedy strikes.

When learning to fly the term is "behind the aircraft".

You are processing information at a much slower rate than it is coming at you therefore you make correcting decisions too late.

The standing joke is "You would be perfectly safe in twin, by the time you caught up to the crash it would have already been cleared off the runway".

In the same way, the wahoo acceleration gets you too close to the corner going too fast before you realise that you have to brake by which time you cannot slow enough to round safely.

It all comes for practice and experience and that can only come with time.

Understanding the problem is the first step towards avoiding it and while you continue to deny it, you are potentially a danger to yourself and other road users.......

Exactly right... ST, let me guess, you're in the affected age demographic...??

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

NO!! avoiding the topic or being ambevilant to it is sticking your head in the sand... if constantly highlighting the problem makes some younger forum members think a bit more carefully and maturely its a worthwhile exercise....

Absolutely, ignoring it will not make it go away, addressing the issue will. We can not take care of the wider community but we can look after our own.

[Joshmcmillan]

Originally Posted by bingoTE50

Gez what a waste .

I hope the survivors of the accidents take it upon themselves to visit schools or talk to their peers in trying to gain something positive out of the situations they were in .

The ad on tv with the girl in the wheelchair speaking about the accident she was in on mothers day is striking as it is sad.
But unfortunately, how many 17 year old sit around watching TV, they need to get more funky with their advertising , use Facebook ,Twitter,visit schools, etc.
My sons school had a policeman ( parent) speak , but it needs the girl in the wheelchair , the guy with one arm and leg ( i guy i played football with !! ) , to get this message through.

My school has a full day program my entire year went to that had people injured in drink driving, speeding, police officers, ambulance drivers, mechanics and demonstrations of the jaws of life etc...
Also on a separate occasion someone came in without an arm and with damage to his leg that was extremely lucky to be alive.
They need these programs at ALL schools.

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

NO!! avoiding the topic or being ambevilant to it is sticking your head in the sand... if constantly highlighting the problem makes some younger forum members think a bit more carefully and maturely its a worthwhile exercise....

Really?

All i see is Claims of "What an Idiot", "Murderer" & "Bring on the XYZ Restrictions" just like the other thread/s, now im all for reducing the road toll but i'd hardly consider this 'brainstorming" as to how to fix the issue.

Come on guys, if we are going to tak about this, how about we come up with some feasable ideas of how to improve the situation instead of sitting back and bagging out someone and two of the friends who are no longer in the world we live it.

4Vman you in particular are red hot and passionate on the subject which is a good thing, but im still yet to see much in the way of suggestions besides a clip over the ear and a mouthfull from Family & Friends.

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

Really?

All i see is Claims of "What an Idiot", "Murderer" & "Bring on the XYZ Restrictions" just like the other thread/s, now im all for reducing the road toll but i'd hardly consider this 'brainstorming" as to how to fix the issue.

Come on guys, if we are going to tak about this, how about we come up with some feasable ideas of how to improve the situation instead of sitting back and bagging out someone and two of the friends who are no longer in the world we live it.

4Vman you in particular are red hot and passionate on the subject which is a good thing, but im still yet to see much in the way of suggestions besides a clip over the ear and a mouthfull from Family & Friends.

Fair comment, lead the way, what is your solution?

[geckoGT]

I would suggest the discussion clearly displaying the negative opinion of the membership across all ages (I say all ages as there have been P platers here that expressed negative opinion of these incidents), may have already helped prevent someone making a bad choice and becoming the topic of discussion.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

4Vman you in particular are red hot and passionate on the subject which is a good thing, but im still yet to see much in the way of suggestions besides a clip over the ear and a mouthfull from Family & Friends.

So what have you come up with apart from wanting it swept under the carpet?

Ive allways said encourage proper responsible Parenting and peer pressure, adopt a zero tollerance approach to bad driving attitude and behaviour, its the most effective way.
Enforce the current restrictions but make them clearer and more real, and keep kids out of vehicles they can't possibly have the experience or maturity to drive safely in all situations...

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

Fair comment, lead the way, what is your solution?

Personally i feel it should be a part of School from the Start of Yr 7 (1st Year of High School if that doesn't apply in your state) through to Yr12, as a serious subject, and no just out standard "Speeding is bad, Mmmkay" that we get, i mean proper education, show them the difference of a car stopping at 70km/h V 60km/h, show them how easily a car can be made to go out of control on a wet skid pan..

You want to crush egos..

Get "The Boys" that are making the comments about skids being cool and so easy to jump in the car (it's a closed & Safe environment!) and show you just how easy it is as they proceeded to spin, in front of the Class Mates and Pretty girls..

Obviously the practical stuff shouldn't start until 14-15 but there is no harm in actual demonstration, no video/DVD BS here, kids need to see this with their own eyes.

Then as part of the licencing system have driver training with a minimum of one Driver Ed session per year, it's not perfect but it's 1000% better than the training we have all been given.

Yes this will all cost money, Yes it may not work for everyone, but we are talking about an improvement, not a complete solution as there has always been accidents and always will be.

Originally Posted by 4Vman

So what have you come up with apart from wanting it swept under the carpet?

I have been making suggestions similar to the one above for a couple of years now, perhaps it's time for you to start reading responces instead of just replying "Rubbish" and "Waste of Time".

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by ST

So you are saying they intentionally drove into a pole? You personally knew all 3 people in the car and feel the title of 'would be murderer' befits each of them? You believe the passengers were responsible for the drivers actions and deserve no sympathy?

Oh and would you let their families know how you feel about their deceased?

I said I felt sorry for the families. READ my post. I wonder how you would feel if they ploughed into one of YOUR family and killed them. Would you have sympathy for them then?

What would you say if a gunman with a blind fold on started shooting in a crowded cinema. Now, he doesn't intentionally mean to kill anyone, but he does. I still say that's murder. They know the consequences, they just don't care.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by FPV8U

I have been making suggestions similar to the one above for a couple of years now, perhaps it's time for you to start reading responces instead of just replying "Rubbish" and "Waste of Time".

Most of that comes under the parenting/peer pressure idea...
Ive just realised something that goes a long way to explaining your soft position on this....

[FPV8U]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Ive just realised something that goes a long way to explaining your soft position on this....

Feel free to share it

Can't really see how an actual idea is a soft position, where your **Yet to announce actual solution/ideas besides what the government is already doing** is a "Hard/Firm" stance on the situation i would presume?

[ST]

Originally Posted by eb2monty

I said I felt sorry for the families. READ my post. I wonder how you would feel if they ploughed into one of YOUR family and killed them. Would you have sympathy for them then?

What would you say if a gunman with a blind fold on started shooting in a crowded cinema. Now, he doesn't intentionally mean to kill anyone, but he does. I still say that's murder. They know the consequences, they just don't care.

...Are you serious?

I read your post and I am completely aware you said you felt sorry for the families, but you are very publicly voicing that you believed ALL 3 of the people involved were 'would be murderers' and deserve no sympathy whatsoever.

I'm not even going to answer the last part of your post as it is beyond ridiculous and you have some serious moral issues if you believe in everything you are posting in this thread.

[MAV50L]

Well call it sick , twisted and morbid all you like but I actually just went down and checked out the scene of the crash.
First thing he may or may not have been driving the car legally. There is still enough time overlap from when the laws come in for someone who was slow advancing to their next stage of their licence to be legally allowed to drive one.
Second by the looks of it he didnt actually hit the pole all that hard. There is no skid marks on the road leading to the impact site , no yellow paint on the road from where the accident investigation have done their thing. The pole is approximately 150mm from the gutter right next to the 3rd lane from the highway. If you are not careful in a truck you can actually clip your mirrors on the poles on the way past so it would take stuff all the actually hit one head on as the driver did. The poles are so close to the road as they were put in when the original 2 lane highway was there and over the years the highway has been widened bringing it close to the poles , unfortunately there is no room due to the houses behind to move the poles back further.
The pole has not been damaged or replaced. It has actually even moved very little in the ground. From working with power poles in my job I know it doesnt take much of an impact to move a pole , especially with all the wet weather in the area over the weekend.
Where it happened the road is not in the greatest condition and yes in very heavy rain water does back up over the lanes. We have had very heavy rain in the last couple of days. It was pouring at the time of the accident.
It may have just been a accident.
The legal speed limit on the stretch of road concerned is 80km/h.
The driver may have actually been doing the speed limit (which would be a mistake in the conditions but is perfectly legal) and hit water banked up on the road and aquaplaned. The pole is right on the gutter and their is nowhere else to go with trees etc there.
More will obviously be known once the investigations have been carried out but from the looks of it , I would actually doubt they were going that fast , after looking atthe damage in the area and from knowing the area since I was a kid (my grandparents lived 5 minutes from where it happened) and knowing that the water does indeed bank up , it could well have just been a tragic accident , that a 40 years old family man coming home from work in his Tarago could of just as easily had.
More will obviously come out about it once the investigations are done but it may not be time to burn people at the stake yet..............

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by MAV50L

Well call it sick , twisted and morbid all you like but I actually just went down and checked out the scene of the crash.
First thing he may or may not have been driving the car legally. There is still enough time overlap from when the laws come in for someone who was slow advancing to their next stage of their licence to be legally allowed to drive one.
Second by the looks of it he didnt actually hit the pole all that hard. There is no skid marks on the road leading to the impact site , no yellow paint on the road from where the accident investigation have done their thing. The pole is approximately 150mm from the gutter right next to the 3rd lane from the highway. If you are not careful in a truck you can actually clip your mirrors on the poles on the way past so it would take stuff all the actually hit one head on as the driver did. The poles are so close to the road as they were put in when the original 2 lane highway was there and over the years the highway has been widened bringing it close to the poles , unfortunately there is no room due to the houses behind to move the poles back further.
The pole has not been damaged or replaced. It has actually even moved very little in the ground. From working with power poles in my job I know it doesnt take much of an impact to move a pole , especially with all the wet weather in the area over the weekend.
Where it happened the road is not in the greatest condition and yes in very heavy rain water does back up over the lanes. We have had very heavy rain in the last couple of days. It was pouring at the time of the accident.
It may have just been a accident.
The legal speed limit on the stretch of road concerned is 80km/h.
The driver may have actually been doing the speed limit (which would be a mistake in the conditions but is perfectly legal) and hit water banked up on the road and aquaplaned. The pole is right on the gutter and their is nowhere else to go with trees etc there.
More will obviously be known once the investigations have been carried out but from the looks of it , I would actually doubt they were going that fast , after looking atthe damage in the area and from knowing the area since I was a kid (my grandparents lived 5 minutes from where it happened) and knowing that the water does indeed bank up , it could well have just been a tragic accident , that a 40 years old family man coming home from work in his Tarago could of just as easily had.
More will obviously come out about it once the investigations are done but it may not be time to burn people at the stake yet..............

Have you seen a picture of the car and where it hit? There's no way 80kph would bend the car in half......