Are We Being Too Harsh And Critial Of Ford Australia

[Franco Cozzo]

Originally Posted by z80

Time to ditch the Falcon and move on...before it's too late.

This, considering we have Mondeo which is basically the same size, except front wheel drive.

I'm waiting for the whole "BUT YOU CAN'T TOW WITH FWD!"

Really, since when do people use Falcons and Commodores for towing anything these days anyways? Every time I see something heavy being towed like a big trailer, caravan, boat or horse float its being towed by an SUV or 4X4.

The only time I've seen Falcon and Commodore tow something its a 6x4 with some junk in it to the tip, which my Focus and my Dad's 323 can do with ease anyway.

The only reason people don't like FWD is because you can't do fully sick burnouts in it.

[2011G6E]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

This, considering we have Mondeo which is basically the same size, except front wheel drive.

I'm waiting for the whole "BUT YOU CAN'T TOW WITH FWD!"

Really, since when do people use Falcons and Commodores for towing anything these days anyways? Every time I see something heavy being towed like a big trailer, caravan, boat or horse float its being towed by an SUV or 4X4.

The only time I've seen Falcon and Commodore tow something its a 6x4 with some junk in it to the tip, which my Focus and my Dad's 323 can do with ease anyway.

The only reason people don't like FWD is because you can't do fully sick burnouts in it.

I'd probably agree with that. The most you ever see behind 99.5% of Falcons or Commodores is a box trailer or possibly a car trailer with a small car on it (because of load limits). If you want to tow a horse float or big caravan, people buy a big fourbie.
And if you say "what about the 0.5% who use it for towing big stuff?"...do you really think a company will worry about a vanishingly small number of buyers like that?

I'd love Ford to continue with a rear-drive platform, but unless the Yanks pull themselves out of the economic poo and decide they want it for something, I'd give the local Falcon-as-we-know-it another five years. Hell, it came awfully close with the god-awful Taurus back in the 1990's...that was set to be the Falcons replacement...and if it'd been a half decent car instead of the monstrosity it was, they might have succeeded.

[Elks]

Yes.

Their marketing is rubbish, but in general their cars are very good value and currently best in class in many categories. They missed the boat by letting go of categories the did well in, Wagon, LPG , V8 etc....

Perceptions in the Auto industry move slowly. It takes while to lose all you customers but twice as long to get them back.

However my view is FoMoCo has found the plot a while back and is working towards "fixing" it. The only question is will they run out of time.

Urgency is the key to there success.. The must do and win every thing for the next 2 years.

my 2c

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by stang65

Cop cars to the U.S at most likely a loss and if they get any orders and not a couple hundred either. Just Holden spin.

I THINK the reason holden hasn`t lost market share and are still selling is because there followers put up with their crap cars and make excuses when they break down.

I can assure you the copcar order isn't no spin. It's a goer. How many who knows.

As for breakdowns and being crap cars. Mate, don't go there. It'll end up having this thread closed down.

[Ford_The_Win]

On a positive note, I saw a great advert for the Ranger Wildtrack last night...but haven't seen it before or since...

[The G6ET Spot]

Originally Posted by Bossxr8

Higher labour prices and all the workplace safety, environmental costs etc, plus the shipping costs to get parts from Korea to here all would make the Cruze more expensive to make here, plus probably a lot lower build numbers.

That would be enough to wipe out most if not all of the profit margins.

It would cost a hell of a lot more to ship an assemble car from Korea to here than it would the parts.

[Smoke Pursuit]

Plus one would think alot of the parts would be supplied by the same supplier as Commdore as alot of the Commodore parts come from Korea too.. If anything Holdens probably got a better deal now on Commodore parts due to the increase in parts orders to cover cruze as well. No doubt over the next 18 months we will see some parts shared across Commodore and Cruze.. They even paint Cruze the same colour as Commodore which is probably getting them a better deal out of PPG (if they use PPG).

Wouldn't suprise me either if Holden dont chuck one of their small locally made V6's in the Cruze at a later date either.

One funny thing about Holden is the amount of OMEGA's they still sell.. I would hazard a guess that they probably sell more Omega spec cars then ford sell all up, Ford do not sell XT's anymore and Im sure that the same people who buy XR6's would have based their comparison between it and the SV6 (even from a Fleet perspective), leaving the XT out altogether.

So is Holden selling Omega's at some rediculous price to the fleet market that Ford wont match with XT? or am I missing something, because I very rarely ever see an XT...

[stang65]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

I can assure you the copcar order isn't no spin. It's a goer. How many who knows.

As for breakdowns and being crap cars. Mate, don't go there. It'll end up having this thread closed down.

They will do jack, it will be low volume at the most hardly enough to justify especially with the Taurus police cars coming online.

I have alot of Holden mates and it`s not as rosie as you say. maybe jump on the LS1 forum and have a look what they go through.

Most of them think Holden has been profitable for the past ten years...lol

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

At Knox Ford last weekend I had a chat to one of the salespeople there...

Pitty the dealership is a joke.

Originally Posted by stang65

He doesn`t blame Holden ewven though he got new firmware on the ECU didn`t fix it, was told it could be a bent float in the fuel tank common problem on VY`S.

That still a problem? They've taken a long time to get their act together on that. But I agree with you Commodore drivers seem to be more forgivable on problems with their cars then Falcon owners.

Originally Posted by Big Damo

The only reason people don't like FWD is because you can't do fully sick burnouts in it.

I don't like FWD cause the way it drives, and yes I've driven plenty. Driven plenty of Focus and wouldn't buy one based on my drives.

....................

Some people are harsh to FoA. Well they have been regaining market share so that is a good job. The Falcon and ute seems to be the main issue. The car is great but the derivatives have been scaled back.

LPi could be a good seller if the boot is not compromised and if they can get punters in to drive the car. Large car power with small car fuel costs.

But one thing that we need to remember is that the Terri is one thing that has hurt the Falcon. Currently it is getting more private sales then fleet (this was put up on here), but why would one want to buy a sedan when the SUV is a more popular family mover.

[Brazen]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

Plus one would think alot of the parts would be supplied by the same supplier as Commdore as alot of the Commodore parts come from Korea too.. If anything Holdens probably got a better deal now on Commodore parts due to the increase in parts orders to cover cruze as well. No doubt over the next 18 months we will see some parts shared across Commodore and Cruze.. They even paint Cruze the same colour as Commodore which is probably getting them a better deal out of PPG (if they use PPG).

Wouldn't suprise me either if Holden dont chuck one of their small locally made V6's in the Cruze at a later date either.

One funny thing about Holden is the amount of OMEGA's they still sell.. I would hazard a guess that they probably sell more Omega spec cars then ford sell all up, Ford do not sell XT's anymore and Im sure that the same people who buy XR6's would have based their comparison between it and the SV6 (even from a Fleet perspective), leaving the XT out altogether.

So is Holden selling Omega's at some rediculous price to the fleet market that Ford wont match with XT? or am I missing something, because I very rarely ever see an XT...

The whole Cruze/Commodore thing reminds me of the Commodore/Kingswood thing of the 80s... Holden introduces a locally made import and over time adpats and changes it to suit Australian tastes. Who knows, Cruze one day might be an Aussie developed no.1 seller.

[Perko]

Personal thoughts are that at times we do expect too much. But passionate Ford fans should expect a lot out of a brand that they support with their hard earned dollars. What frustrates me is Ford's failure to listen to the market and promote itself out there. The promotional area has been flogged to death so I'll have my gripe on the first part.

Ford failed to listen to the market with V8's in the 80's and paid the price. Then they decided to drop the XR8 nameplate which now they publicly acknowledge has cost them sales to Holden. Is someone who has just bought a SS suddenly going to sell it and buy a XR8? Unfortunately probably not in the timeframe that Ford execs would want to justify the long term viability of the nameplate. Making the same mistake twice is just plain stupid.

My other gripe may be localised but it concerns the most important part of any brand, customer service. My experiences at dealers over the past 5 years has cost Ford 3 new car sales. I have not bought another brand but have chosen to keep my current cars. This has been through 3 different dealers who flatly refused to look at small changes to suit some particular needs. I know that there are some great dealers out there by some of the posts but consistency would be nice. The most recent experience was a friend I took to a local dealership after talking to him for months about looking at a FPV GS ute. Not only was the salesperson short but didn't even want to look at some custom options that my friend was looking for. We went down the road to Holden. The salesperson was helpful and honest. Told us he would call back as he wasn't sure what he could do (my mate wanted different rims and a few options). Three hours later the job was done, cost my mate a bit more for what he wanted, but he signed on the dotted line that arvo. I was happy for him but ****ed at the Ford salesman for making look like an idiot. Mate didn't even haggle further and paid full money for the accessories. Not bad for three hours work.

My point here is that especially with the new Territory, Ranger, Focus and FG2 Ford finally has some of the best vehicles on the market in their segment. But they continually miss the little things (promotion, brand awareness, customer service and follow up) and this is why they have been and will continue to struggle in the market. Love my Fords but geez they do push the relationship at times.

[mik]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

This, considering we have Mondeo which is basically the same size, except front wheel drive.

I'm waiting for the whole "BUT YOU CAN'T TOW WITH FWD!"

Really, since when do people use Falcons and Commodores for towing anything these days anyways? Every time I see something heavy being towed like a big trailer, caravan, boat or horse float its being towed by an SUV or 4X4.

The only time I've seen Falcon and Commodore tow something its a 6x4 with some junk in it to the tip, which my Focus and my Dad's 323 can do with ease anyway.

The only reason people don't like FWD is because you can't do fully sick burnouts in it.

do you think so? i tow one of the old style heavy 16 ft caravans on occasion, i tow cars, and on occasion a focus sized trailer as does my mate, i still see quite a few sedans towing, but i would agree there maybe less doing tow duty compared to bigger 4x4`s these days.

[svo supporter]

Originally Posted by stang65

They will do jack, it will be low volume at the most hardly enough to justify especially with the Taurus police cars coming online.

I have alot of Holden mates and it`s not as rosie as you say. maybe jump on the LS1 forum and have a look what they go through.

Most of them think Holden has been profitable for the past ten years...lol

These cop cars are a small part of the export pie. And a lot of small parts make a big difference. These cars are already massed produced, only a small volume are being modified to meet overseas requirements. I have used this as an example of the export market Holden use. You also have the middle east as another area, that the Commodore is exported to. I'm also sure there are other places overseas the car goes to, but the destinations elude me at the moment.


Where do Ford export to? Nowhere. Ford Aust only import. If Ford Aust were to start exporting, or Ford Aust were to do a Holden Cruize scenario with one of their imported small cars, it would be possible for Ford Aust to start picking up the bottom line, rather than them sinking further into the hole they're currently digging.

As for Holden mates. I know a few Holden employees. I only moved out of the area wher the Holden factory is, 7 months ago, after living near it for 10 years. So I don't need to jump onto some forum to know what is happening in that company.

I am mearly making some valid suggestions on where I think Ford could improve, by using what Holden do as an example. After all, thousands of Ford employees lively hoods are on the line here, not to mention the knock on effect within the supply industry.

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

even the 'die hard' ford fans, don't bother supporting the product. They have B series and older models

but my B series is only just 3 over years old. how often do you update your vehicle?

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by aussie muscle

but my B series is only just 3 over years old. how often do you update your vehicle?

The other half's FG is sitting in the driveway at the moment.

I wasn't in a position to upgrade my vehicle, and even if I was, I wouldn't buy a Falcon. I'm just over 5' and don't feel comfortable driving such a big car, particularly when I can't see out the back of it...the Fiesta is a different story.

Which puts me in the boat that I have no reason to be harsh or critical towards Ford Australia...that, and I'm not a 'die hard' blue oval fan.

My responses are honest, I'm sorry if I've offended you, however, I was making a point, mainly towards those who yell and scream that the Falcon needs to stay. If their customer base isn't upgrading, they really do face a good chance, that the car will be there no more.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by svo supporter

rather than them sinking further into the hole they're currently digging.

what hole is that? they increased market share last month and all reports have them making a profit for 2010.

many on here still think they are the falcon car company. those days look to be behind them as all their other models are selling pretty well.

Originally Posted by Sezzy

The other half's FG is sitting in the driveway at the moment.

new or second hand?

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by prydey

what hole is that? they increased market share last month and all reports have them making a profit for 2010.

many on here still think they are the falcon car company. those days look to be behind them as all their other models are selling pretty well.



new or second hand?

New - he refuses to buy second hand cars.

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by prydey

what hole is that? they increased market share last month and all reports have them making a profit for 2010.

many on here still think they are the falcon car company. those days look to be behind them as all their other models are selling pretty well.

That's right, Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo, Ranger and even Escape have made
good increases this year more than offsetting the slow down in Falcon sales.
Maybe Ford is very comfortable with the change in product emphasis and is
confident that new local vehicles arriving soon will change the fortunes of
its local production by adding models in demand.

Falcon will find its feet but I hope they use Titanium and Zetec names more for local vehicles,
the recognition and imagery of those names could be invaluable in increasing awareness.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Sezzy

New - he refuses to buy second hand cars.

lucky you.

the thing is, many who buy new, keep their cars for longer than those who buy second hand. this is a very general statement i know but those who forked out $35k+ for a fg are unlikely to be looking to buy another one at the moment.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Falcon will find its feet but I hope they use Titanium and Zetec names more for local vehicles,
the recognition and imagery of those names could be invaluable in increasing awareness.

can't agree with that. i think the zetec nameplate has recognition as a small car. i don't think it will fit falcon.

[burnz]

Originally Posted by jpd80

That's right, Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo, Ranger and even Escape have made
good increases this year more than offsetting the slow down in Falcon sales.
Maybe Ford is very comfortable with the change in product emphasis and is
confident that new local vehicles arriving soon will change the fortunes of
its local production by adding models in demand.

Falcon will find its feet but I hope they use Titanium and Zetec names more for local vehicles,
the recognition and imagery of those names could be invaluable in increasing awareness.

as you say the focus, mondeo are gaining market share..
shouldn't that have been a good enough buisness case to produce locally??

[prydey]

Originally Posted by burnz

shouldn't that have been a good enough buisness case to produce locally??

can't see it.

have a look at the amount of cars you can get new now for around $20k new, give or take, and have a look at the kit they come with. i can't see how we could manufacture a car in this country at the same spec level and make money on it, compared to overseas. having said that, i'm the first to admit i don't really have a clue what i'm on about

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by prydey

lucky you.

You sure about that? I'd like a house in the not too distant future...he plans on buying an FG 2.

Originally Posted by prydey

the thing is, many who buy new, keep their cars for longer than those who buy second hand. this is a very general statement i know but those who forked out $35k+ for a fg are unlikely to be looking to buy another one at the moment.

I understand this, and I guess my original comments have started to be taken a little out of context. Highlighting one sentence I've written, but not referencing back to the entire paragraph.

What I originally said was as follows:

I see the signatures on here saying VW, BMW, Merc, Mini Cooper, Nissan, etc. Is it really any surprise isn't selling, even the 'die hard' ford fans, don't bother supporting the product. They have B series and older models - and have no intention on purchasing a new car, because the indicator is not in the right spot or the colour isn't right. There are 50k+ members on this forum, Ford sell approx 1800 falcons per month. How many have brand new Falcons, or at least latest model Falcons? Or have any interest post 1975 vehicles?

Having a B series is fine, I'm not debating that, the 'no intention of buying a new car' is the bit I was actually aiming at. Fair enough, it may not be in someone's financial abilities to do, I can understand that, but how is a company going to be profitable if no-one is buying a new Falcon?

If the market isn't there for them; it isn't there for them. And to keep them around on the offchance that someone 'might' buy a new Falcon is just selfish.

[LTDHO]

To answer the question. No we're not.

Ford have dropped LWB and lost the plot with marketing (only exception being the recent Alan Moffet ads), so there is no wonder sales are dropping off and people being laid off. Ford will not be able to keep up with the majors soo the way they are going.

[prydey]

sezzy - sorry, i was ball watching a touch and didn't see the original context.

Originally Posted by Sezzy

but how is a company going to be profitable if no-one is buying a new Falcon?

the 'company' can still be very profitable because falcon is only 1 product in their lineup. not sure how long they can afford to 'carry' the falcon for at current numbers but on the whole, they are improving.

[Road_Warrior]

I don't think ditching the LWB honestly was that big of a deal. Sure, we mourned the loss of the Fairlane and LTD, but that segment died ages ago. The only reason Holden persisted with it is because there was an export market to support the LWB business case. Look at the sales volumes of the Caprice nowadays - especially after they have dropped the Statesman - and tell me that having LWB cars around still is a great idea.

[SEZ213]

Originally Posted by prydey

sezzy - sorry, i was ball watching a touch and didn't see the original context.



the 'company' can still be very profitable because falcon is only 1 product in their lineup. not sure how long they can afford to 'carry' the falcon for at current numbers but on the whole, they are improving.

That's kind of what I was getting at (although I'm supposed to be studying, this is more interesting than educational psychology ). The product range that Ford as a whole have, is fantastic - I don't doubt that, it's the 'carrying' that concerns me. Providing the Territory is a good seller, I don't see a problem for Ford Australia.

To me it seems they are taking positive steps to streamline their business, granted, this isn't good for 240 employees, but it would appear that they have the right idea in mind (the $8m+ saving on wages alone tells me this).

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

I don't think ditching the LWB honestly was that big of a deal. Sure, we mourned the loss of the Fairlane and LTD, but that segment died ages ago. The only reason Holden persisted with it is because there was an export market to support the LWB business case. Look at the sales volumes of the Caprice nowadays - especially after they have dropped the Statesman - and tell me that having LWB cars around still is a great idea.

Geoff Polites explained the thinking well, it was either spend proper money on LWB Fairlane, LTD
and Station wagon and watch the market slowly sink or go develop something new like Territory.

Polites reasoning was sound and had Gorman followed through with diesel Territory when it was
riding on top of the world in 2005/06 things would have been so much different now....
Back then, Territory sales were nearly 2,000/month, the diesel would have added another 1,000...

[Smoke Pursuit]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Geoff Polites explained the thinking well, it was either spend proper money on LWB Fairlane, LTD
and Station wagon and watch the market slowly sink or go develop something new like Territory.

Polites reasoning was sound and had Gorman followed through with diesel Territory when it was
riding on top of the world in 2005/06 things would have been so much different now....
Back then, Territory sales were nearly 2,000/month, the diesel would have added another 1,000...

Too true.. Geoff Polites was the king of Ford Aust... If only his vision had been followed through with I think the company would be in alot better position today...

[prydey]

Originally Posted by jpd80

Back then, Territory sales were nearly 2,000/month, the diesel would have added another 1,000...

see, to me, its all speculation with your 20/20 hindsight goggles on. its easy to look back and say 'should've.....'!!

it may well be as you say, but everyone's an expert after the event. this is one area that fits perfectly with the topic of this thread. every manufacturer makes decisions years in advance of product release. as fans, its easy to critisize looking back.