How many Kids have to DIE before the Government pulls their finger out????

[ebxr8240]

Discipline is discipline though not to be confused with fighting etc..
Or belting the crap out of your child !!

[BENT_8]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Discipline is discipline though not to be confused with fighting etc..
Or belting the crap out of your child !!

Exactly, but to take an extreme angle allows for an argument.

No one is talking about bashing kids, were talking about being able to discipline a child who doesnt respond to any other alternative.

I dont think any parent wakes up in the morning with the intent of smacking their child, but if it is necessary, it should be an available option without fear of persecution.

As i said before, there is no blanket rule for raising children. Parents need to asses each child and situation based on its merits.
To coincide with this, certain government depts need to give benefit of the doubt to the parent and prove their case if there is indeed one, not just act swiftly from some text book example.

The fact is, some children will fall victim to severe physical and mental abuse, and may end up dead, that is a terrible outcome, but so is 3 dead juveniles in a stolen car.
The question is, has society benefitted from the recent approach?

[ford man xf]

Originally Posted by flappist

Of course.

Your child is taught that they have rights and are equal to all adults but as children they are actually protected and superior.

This is a top post and you are so right on this, I know of a child who is treated as an adult, and low and behold they think they have the same privileges as an adult, can have the same freedoms an adult and to treat others without any respect.

[FPV8U]

Personally responsibility, until we learn to refocus on this in life & law things will continue to decline.

It's a horrible situation where anyone of this age dies, but there are so many to blame before the government it's almost laughable to suggest reform and education program's, at the age of 12 I'd have still been playing with Lego, game cards, video games and footy on the weekend.

[b2tf]

Originally Posted by grandpa_spec_F6

Do you know what my mates and I got when we were at school? Zip, nada, nothing. I got a stern talking to from the driving instructor on the test for my P plates and that was it.

What Im getting at is we had no idea of the consequences, or what a "good" driver was. When I look back at the risks we took in those first few years it amazes me we are still here today.

Yeh bit hard to say to someone 'don't do that' after they've crashed into a wall.

[scottyg]

As a Grumpy old Father of 2 adult Daughters - all I can add is - Where were the parents ?

[79raven]

Originally Posted by ebxr8240

Discipline is discipline though not to be confused with fighting etc..
Or belting the crap out of your child !!

That's the thing. Each parent normally will raise there child to survive the best we can, its nature. Some think a smack teaches that for every bad action there are consequences. I never want to smack my kids but sometimes its needed. Who the hell has the right to question me? My eldest at 7 is reading Lord of the rings for the 4th time, my kids are fed and loved. How has a smack damaged them?
Funny thing, our beloved land of free speech has controlled our existence. Not by our own thought, but by the thoughts of others.
I personally think the government normally only stuffs things up, its bound to happen. Law is black and white, no grey in a world full of greys. Id be more inclined to point not only at the laws already in place, but also most parents don't have time to raise there kids. They are too busy working so bills get paid, food goes on the table and a roof stays overhead. I know what most will say," well why have kids if you cant raise them". S%@t happens, called life. Not to mention how expensive life has become even in the last few years, and its only going to get worse. I know that because I'm a Dad but if I didn't have kids I wouldn't care. You never fully understand the cost of parenting until your one of them.
Lastly, this crap with teen boosting happens. Its been happening for a long time, just now Australia is so much more populated and multiculturally diverse ( I'm a realist not a racist) there's more people to do bad stuff. What do you expect from kids who's parents cant raise them or tell them what to do?
That's my 5 cents anyway

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by DASH GT

I think you will find many schools have implemented driver education programs. One of my clients is a provider of such a program and while its good there are still kids who will do the wrong thing, regardless of how much education you give them, as per above...

First the kids have to go to school

[LG17]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

First the kids have to go to school

Now that's a whole different story! :(

[P6LTD351]

Originally Posted by Work Horse

Gee fellas, these kids have not been dead 24hours and everyone wants to put the slipper in.

And we have a right to. That's the problem with today's society - we are too soft. How DARE they steal a car. Parents may be to blame too BUT: any human being that doesn't have an innate knowledge that stealing a car is WRONG needs to succumb to Darwin's law. Not stealing a car does NOT need to be taught. We are talking about humans that have been on this earth for 12 - 16 years. They KNEW it was wrong. Serves them right. I am so grateful that innocent people were not killed.

I do not apologise for this harsh call either.

[EVLKNEVL]

I think automatically seeking someone to blame is fundamentally a reactive and destructive approach. The focus needs to be on a proactive and constructive attitude towards this type of circumstance, with an understanding that soliciting hate toward those we consider at fault just isn't productive. We have to realise that nothing will be cured overnight by any or all means. We should start by teaching our kids to be good parents. Break the cycle, and in turn, the habit of passing responsibility on like a hot potato.

I realise that it's not possible to get through to every last person. The best we can do is minimise the potential for it to happen to somebody we love.

[Franco Cozzo]

Driver training? What driver training?

There was nothing for me and I finished Year 12 in 2009, so I'm fairly fresh out of the system.

We had two cops come in and tell us how the new P plate laws were already saving lives, then a few university students come in and tell us to get in a circle and throw balls at each other in 2008, I still have no idea what the throwing balls at each other part had to do with driver training to this day.

Then I did a lot of driving lessons which they just taught me the 6 pre planned driving routes for the license test in Sunbury, I did 200 hours of cruising on the local country roads, went for my test in Sunbury, barely passed and then was free to go out on the road, after I got my license I accidentally killed someones cat because I wasn't paying attention and got its head with my front left wheel.

School all together is a joke, they took out compound interest in maths in year 12 because "its too hard", put in the easier crap you didn't need like matrices and networks to make their stats look better in the end.

The kids who played up and annoyed everyone else never got any punishment, and continued annoying the people who wanted to learn.

Maybe if we spent less time learning Romeo and Juliet, Macbeth and other useless William Shakespeare crap and more on how the real world works we wouldn't be in this situation we are in now. I've learned more in the last 3 years outside of school than I did in 13 years of going through the system, waste of time to be honest.

Also if we had police who did more than sit behind radar guns on the side of the road, or hassling people with modified cars they might earn some more respect from people. They're already low in my books because they weren't interested when my family has needed them in the past.

Or on Melbourne Cup day a drunk girl decided to dish out some punishment to random racegoers, spectators had to hold her down, no police or security to be found.

Guess what? Its cheaper to have a few dead kids and then pretend like you're doing something about it with bandaid fixes like harsher penalties for everyone rather than do things properly. This happens because everyone in society today is all about me me me me and me, no one gives a **** about the other guy anymore and its only going to get worse.

Its all about looking like you're doing the right thing. What did the 2008 Alcopop tax do for underage drinking? They switched to goon, now they want to hike taxes on cheap wine, they'll move onto something else next. Plain packaging on cigarettes, people don't buy cigarettes because they have a blue package etc, its peer pressure in high school, the moment someone inhales their first breath of cigarette smoke they've already lost.

My parents smacked me only a few times when I was growing up, only because I didn't really step out of line much at all and I've always hung out with an older crowd anyways so didn't have much young immaturity around me. When I was 16 I was playing Xbox with mates not out in the street stealing cars.

The system won't change because these scumbags in office are the same as the next scumbags going to take up office, so on so fourth. You get young ones wanting to change the system, then they get older and end up with something to lose, learn that they're not 10 feet tall and bullet proof and they tend to quieten down and put up with the way things are.

[bingoTE50]

As a father of a nineteen year old and seventeen year old it sickens me to read of these accidents.
It appears that every month or two this type of thing is happening. Are parents really this slack or were they all supposed to be at one of their houses for a video night. The perception of danger is pretty poor at these kids ages and more than likely most jumped in the car for fear of peer group persecution . Seems silly to us, but to kids in their little pond of life , its a big deal.
Whats the answer? Well I make/made a habit of knowing my kids friends , I go to their school functions ,observe them ,if they come over and I talk to them , I make a point of introducing myself to their parents ,to size them up , and lastly I did hand out discipline both by a whack around the backside or banned them from things they enjoyed . I also paid out 70k over the last nine years on a school that pushed morals and had a good code of conduct . No long hair ,short skirts , uniforms to be worn and kept tidy , and a christian outlook on life . I have to say that the schooling certainly helped form the kids character . By the way I went to four primary schools and two high schools all public ,and I am by no means a god-squadder.

[mik]

lots of talk about "parents"..... plural, and fair enough too , and i agree the do gooders need to wake up to themselves, a good 6 of the best never hurt anyone, but there are also a lot of kids grow up on the wrong side of the street with only one parent that cannot cope, this is also a big problem with today's society, i think if stats where put out many would be shocked, ok just had a look , as i thought, ............there where according to bureau of statistics(2011) more than half a million single mother families in Australia, is that not truly staggering?
been through this myself, having lost my old man when i was age 11, without going into my own life , i can say it`s real easy for things to go off the rails when **** happens to the family.

[2011G6E]

Your child is taught that they have rights and are equal to all adults but as children they are actually protected and superior.

Couldn't have put it better myself...

I'm 48 years old...If I go out right now, steal a car, get in a police chase, crash the thing and write it off, and then get caught, I just know I'm going to be making sure I don't drop the soap for the next year or two in prison as the worst outcome...I might get a good behavior bond and probation for a year or two at best, butI know I'd still be in a world of trouble.

However, if I was 15 and did the exact same thing...and 15 is an age when everyone would have to agree you would have some slight inkling that stealing a car is wrong...I know that i'd be let off with all sorts of cautions, and no conviction recorded.
Add to that the fact that if I did it again in my parole or probation period, I know I'd get slapped in jail...let a 15 year old do it again, and he will again get a good behavior bond and no conviction recorded. The papers show it happens all the time.

Who learns a stronger lesson in that they have done the wrong thing and don't dare do it again?
Why should age be a factor in serious crimes...you know you've done wrong, there can be no possible argument that you had no idea that it isn't OK to take someones car and you didn't realise what you were doing.

The legal system is based on some nebulous idea that until you're 18, you have no idea what is going on in the world around you, a system that shows blind trust in the lawyers assigned to these little darlings when they claim that their young client had a "momentary lapse in judgement" or some such crap.
I don't know about Australia (but I would bet the figures would be the same), but I have seen news items from England in the rougher areas where police say they arrest the same kids over and over again for burglary and break and enter and car theft, but once they reach the age of criminal responsibility (16 or so...the age where they will end up in jail or some form of custody, not just slapped on the wrist and let go), they magically clean up their act, as if all the crime was just youthful exuberance, just acting like a young scallywag who deserves our sympathy instead of our scorn.

Kids, even with the worst upbringing, will know right from wrong...they know it...but whether they choose to act in a way that shows it is another matter. They will know that lifting lollies from K-Mart is wrong, they will know that levering open the neighbours window when he's out at work and taking anything not nailed down is wrong, they will know that they shouldn't boost the keys and take his car for a joyride.
The problems start when such a "child" has been brought up by the parents to "do their own thing", and have way too much freedom.

Kids aren't adults...adults have "boundaries", be they at work, in our personal life, and just generally in society...what sort of society will we end up with if kids are exempt from any sort of firm boundaries of behavior where they are told to "feel free to express yourself however you want", that they "shouldn't let anyone tell you your limits", that "you can do anything, don't let anyone hold you back"?
I would wager anyone on this board over the age of, say, thirty never heard those words at school...or usually even from our parents.

Social engineers and other assorted do-gooders don't like to hear it, but the old cliche "I was smacked on the bum/given the cane at school and it never did me any harm" is absolutely, 100% true...they just hate hearing it as it doesn't go along with their soft world view.

[Itsme]

Originally Posted by Big Damo

The system won't change because these scumbags in office are the same as the next scumbags going to take up office, so on so fourth. You get young ones wanting to change the system, then they get older and end up with something to lose, learn that they're not 10 feet tall and bullet proof and they tend to quieten down and put up with the way things are.

This is where you are wrong and a defeatist....
Believe in your self, the world can be a better place if you choose to do some thing about it..... No use whinging, that won't achieve any thing.

[1TUFFUTE]

what needs to happen IS education of our kids. They need to learn respect for cars and what can happen if driven ,handled or even sitting in a car irresponsibly. It is the governments fault....because they arent even trying let alone getting it wrong.....all they want to get wrong is radar placement...

[Trevor 57]

Originally Posted by Sorted

Well done the Australian Governement - close your eyes and wait for the next accident to kill more kids on our roads - do NOTHING about it except blame HOONS by adding harsher penalties to those who are licenced.
I recall some one in the government once saying if the new laws save one life then it is all worth it.

So why no DRIVER EDUCATION??????

Apparently there is a need to talk to young people about the dangers of driving, really - NO **** !!!!!!!!

In reality what will happen, speed limits will be reduced, more speed camera's, harsher penalties for any offence etc etc

How does that help or deter the kids who don't even have driver's licences???

I am personally very disappointed with our Government - our kids are dying on our streets and they are doing nothing anout it.

So tell me , how is driver education going to stop a 14 year old stealing a car, loading it up with all their mates and crashing.


(As a note, I have worked as an 'advanced' driver since 1987, with some small stints as a 'learn to drive' trainer)

[Trevor 57]

And I can see we are going down the old path of "licence testing"

FFS, the licence testing regime is tougher now than it ever has been in the past, just go and ask a few 'oldies' how they got their licences

Remember 1000 people died in Victoria in 1970, that is more than the whole of Australia now.

I think some are on the money with the parent thing, the break down of the family unit, parents trying to be the kids friend instead of being thier educator and punisher.

Kids need boundaries or they will run feral, it all starts at home. I have 4 adult kids.

[Trevor 57]

Just heard on the News that some of these kids were in the States care, WTF!!!

2 issues here:

1. What were their carers doing at the time? I hope there is an investigation.

2. This is another example of my previous point, the break down of the family unit.

[Killaxb]

Think people forgetting these were kids..... They didnt deserve to die but yes,where the **** were the parents,an yes the shouldnt have stolen a car. I have done bad things,we all have"never stole a car but" i dont think they deserved what happened but they played the game an payed the ultimate price..... Waste of young lives

[jcxr]

Originally Posted by Jim Goose

Meanwhile in todays paper here....



Seriously what goes on in the homes of these kids???????

JG, you may have missed that this was in North Queensland and may have been indigenous kids doin' what they and their parents have done for thousands of years.

[XR6_661]

Everybody wanna help the 'kids', but nobody wanna help the 'kids'.

There was a recent crash in WA...Taxi plowed into a truck, 3 dead.

HOW MANY TAXI DRIVERS HAVE TO DIE BEFORE THE GOVERNMENT PULL THEIR FINGER OUT?

Who gives a rats, worry about yourself.

[noflac52]

I think driving should be a compulsory subject in all high schools from day one!

The kids at this age are very impressionable hence the power of peer pressure. It should be as comprehensive as maths, science etc and build the skill levels over time and address the attitudes associated with driving which are an enomous part of being on the roads.

If the reasons why certain things are done are explained the kids and taught properly at an early age there won't be a lot of resistance to it. Kids are resigned to learning maths and science and other subjects because thats just the way it is and this can be done with learning the complex subject of driving also. Some kids will be good at it and some won't but it gives the opportunity to give remedial tuition to those kids before they get on the road network as licenced drivers.

Kids at the moment don't place learning to drive as highly important to their future at least not in the same category as a good education When in fact it is one of the single most important things we will do on an almost daily basis and lets face it if the kids die trying to learn how to drive after they have a licence everything else is a waste of time.

Big Damo makes some great points and the one about the "scumbags in politics" struck a cord with me.

This is just party politics. An enthusiastic new comer wants to change things but comes up against severe opposition from the party and because he or she has a family to look after they eventually back down under the veiled threats of not going up the ladder or worst being thrown out altogether.

"Silver Bullets" are another impediment to getting things changed for the better too in politics. These are policies that can be easily implemented, cost little but have the effect of appearing to address the problem at hand and making the govt look good to the general public. Seems very similar to how our roads and traffic are managed to me!

[aussie muscle]

Originally Posted by Sorted

I am personally very disappointed with our Government

Why does the government have to do it? what about parents? you know, the people that are supposed to be looking after these kids?

[Jim Goose]

Originally Posted by jcxr

JG, you may have missed that this was in North Queensland and may have been indigenous kids doin' what they and their parents have done for thousands of years.

And I am born and bred here.... I garantee you that white feral bogans in this town outnumber the coloured ones...

[FGII-XR6]

and that makes their actions ok? the simple fact is they were commiting an adult crime and society is a better place without them

( their race is irrelevant being indigenous should not afford them special treatment)

Originally Posted by jcxr

JG, you may have missed that this was in North Queensland and may have been indigenous kids doin' what they and their parents have done for thousands of years.

[Work Horse]

Originally Posted by eb2monty

And we have a right to. That's the problem with today's society - we are too soft. How DARE they steal a car. Parents may be to blame too BUT: any human being that doesn't have an innate knowledge that stealing a car is WRONG needs to succumb to Darwin's law. Not stealing a car does NOT need to be taught. We are talking about humans that have been on this earth for 12 - 16 years. They KNEW it was wrong. Serves them right. I am so grateful that innocent people were not killed.

I do not apologise for this harsh call either.

Well you are certainly welcome to your opinion.

Seems many in this thread are having trouble coming to terms with the fact that thing happen in life that are difficult to deal with.

Seems it's far easier to make some glib comment about; government, society, parenting or individual responsibility, than admit you have NFI.

When I was a kid discipline was strict. I came home from primary school and told my parents my sixth grade teacher had hit the boy sitting next to me so hard it had lifted him from his seat. They said "well he must have deserved it". I guess having your elbows on the desk was a sign you would become a problem for society.

I was only hit with a cane or strap at High School. The really undisciplined kids got a private class with one particular PE teachers. He knew how to intimidate kids and punch so it wouldn't leave a mark.

Every kid I knew was hit by their parents. Several of my mates were beaten or intimidated by the police.

In spite of all of this strict discipline kids still did really stupid things, just like those kids did yesterday.

We all like to think it could never happen to us, or anyone we know. We all like to think that when it happens to someone else, there is a really clear differance between "us and them".

Maybe by having no empathy for others, some posters in this thread believe they are protecting themselves from things that happen in life that are difficult to deal with......

[EgoFG]

If the Police had a good reputation for being everywhere, there would be less instance of this, and it would be more likely that they would be caught earlier.

Policing Roads should mean Cops in the Cars, not Cameras on the corners !

[79raven]

Originally Posted by EgoFG

If the Police had a good reputation for being everywhere, there would be less instance of this, and it would be more likely that they would be caught earlier.

Policing Roads should mean Cops in the Cars, not Cameras on the corners !

sorry dude, I think thats a load of crap. All putting more cops on the street will do when it comes to the youth of today will be more abused cops. Kids now days have zero respect for the law, not to mention the uproar when people find out that other services desperately in need of funding i.e hospitals etc will be cut to pay for more cops.
Dont get me wrong, more cops is a wonderful idea ( if we could afford it) but its not going to stop the kids. Lets just say my childhood was on the horrid scale, no matter what I did I always had respect for the law. You soon learnt that there was some people in society you just had to respect. Now kids respect nobody.
I just came up with the perfect solution to save our kids, call Dr Phil and the super nanny, they will save us all