March 2015 vfacts - Holden 4th Ford 7th

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by blk6t

I think there are a number of issues plaguing the Falcon, dated interior, behind in the tech dept, poor sales and quality image and lack of marketing.

Yet they sold about 200 more Falcons then they built for the month.

[Syndrome]

Originally Posted by Windsor220

I'm wondering if Falcon has ruined Fords image.

No. It is Ford themselves responsible for tarnishing their brand's image.

[XR Martin]

Yeah its the image of Ford more than anything.

The whole 'tech' thing is a load of crap, of all the cars outselling Ford models, which ones have more tech?

Hilux? Corolla? Rav4? Triton? Camry? Mazda 3? CX5?

People dont shop on tech primarily, image is number 1

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by LoudPipes

So is saying Holden drivers are the most complained about or that Holden has twice the dealer issues.

For all the complaints about the vehicles and drivers the telling stat is Holden sells more than Ford.

No it's not.....they are totally different things.(not to mention these are actual statistics...not so e random view) If it was ford in those two examples perhaps you could argue that according to the surveys.....ford was on the 'nose'. But apparently Holden is.

So I'd assume it's a combined pile of things effecting fords sales. Starting with their biggest Aussie seller now becoming a niche car.
Dealer problems, advertising,car availability and many things all combine I'd say.

Calling it as simply a dealer issue, or a advertising issue(as if advertising a niche car is going to do anything)......is as I said, a cop out. So is branding ford as dirty on the nose.
Reality is it's a combination of the same things that every brand has issues with.

Imho

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Yeah its the image of Ford more than anything.

The whole 'tech' thing is a load of crap, of all the cars outselling Ford models, which ones have more tech?

Hilux? Corolla? Rav4? Triton? Camry? Mazda 3? CX5?

People dont shop on tech primarily, image is number 1

So what about the more recentToyota and Holden recalls. Or the fact that Holden is seen as Australia's bogan brand(most complained about drivers)? Yes it just keeps getting confusing!

Image certainly plays a role, but it does so for every brand.

Less then ten years ago Kia and Hyundai were gutter dwellers as far as image. They've turned that around very fast! Mostly by building good cars(which ford does) and more recently really backing their quality with massive warranties!

[701let]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

So what about the more recentToyota and Holden recalls. Or the fact that Holden is seen as Australia's bogan brand(most complained about drivers)? Yes it just keeps getting confusing!

Image certainly plays a role, but it does so for every brand.

Less then ten years ago Kia and Hyundai were gutter dwellers as far as image. They've turned that around very fast! Mostly by building good cars(which ford does) and more recently really backing their quality with massive warranties!

How can you honestly take seriously the whole 'holden is seen as Australia's bogan brand'?? I understand you are a passionate ford man but that is just ridiculous. Ef and VR equally bogan, VS and EL equal, Au and vt equal.. Seriously.

Maybe there's more complained about holden drivers because there's so many more out there than fords.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by 701let

How can you honestly take seriously the whole 'holden is seen as Australia's bogan brand'?? I understand you are a passionate ford man but that is just ridiculous. Ef and VR equally bogan, VS and EL equal, Au and vt equal.. Seriously.

Maybe there's more complained about holden drivers because there's so many more out there than fords.

Simply because statistic results showed Holden drivers as the most complained about drivers. It's not my research.....I'm just passing it on as information that would certainly go along ways to brand perception.

And having more Holden drivers on the road would certainly make them more likely to top the 'bogan' charts. Well.....you'd think so! Doesn't change the facts tho does it!

Funny thing is....if there was research data that showed FORD drivers as the most complained about drivers......I garuntee there'd be about 20 of you guys shouting that from the roof tops as to why fords image is dud! Funny that....

[701let]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Simply because statistic results showed Holden drivers as the most complained about drivers. It's not my research.....I'm just passing it on as information that would certainly go along ways to brand perception.

And having more Holden drivers on the road would certainly make them more likely to top the 'bogan' charts. Well.....you'd think so! Doesn't change the facts tho does it!

Funny thing is....if there was research data that showed FORD drivers as the most complained about drivers......I garuntee there'd be about 20 of you guys shouting that from the roof tops as to why fords image is dud! Funny that....

It's weird because pre 1980 Fords don't suffer from the image problem. Quite the opposite actually. Revered vehicles

The image problem came from the Falcons of the 90s and were topped off by the AU falcon. And unfortunately never recovered. They were making some absolute junk in the 90s ie Festiva (nickname Festy), transit vans (tragedy vans), explorer (exploder) etc. And as much as these are just stupid names at the end of the day it stuck and the image problem never went away. Imo

[danzvtil]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Simply because statistic results showed Holden drivers as the most complained about drivers. It's not my research.....I'm just passing it on as information that would certainly go along ways to brand perception.

And having more Holden drivers on the road would certainly make them more likely to top the 'bogan' charts. Well.....you'd think so! Doesn't change the facts tho does it!

Funny thing is....if there was research data that showed FORD drivers as the most complained about drivers......I garuntee there'd be about 20 of you guys shouting that from the roof tops as to why fords image is dud! Funny that....

Yeah, and everyone knows 7 out of 8 statistics are made up on the spot, seriously WGAF.
Car buying for a whole stack of drivers is a business like decision based on what they've heard, what they've read about a brand, I myself had to tell a colleague NOT to buy a holden cruze because of all the problems my company has been having with our fleet.
The next round of company cars will likely be Korean as 5 or 7 year warranty makes for a risk free purchase when at the end of a 4 year lease on a kia, it will still have as much factory warranty to run as a BRAND NEW Holden.
We still have 2 VE commos which have been passed around the bosses family, and as a business purchase they are too expensive to buy and run when the small/medium car class is 10 to 15 k cheaper and has all the features a rep could ever need.
The other strike against holden is the amount of time we are off the road with warranty crap, and the holden dealer admits they have ongoing issues which shouldn't happen in this day and age.

[The Snout]

Ford isn't in a bad position, it's just that the 80s are over, local manufacturing is nearly over and it's now just another car company. It's got to stop looking back at Wheels Magazine covers from 1986 and get on with today.

Maybe the 60s,70s and 80s were glory days, but no kid under about 35 would have witnessed any of it.

We know what Ford was, but what is it now ? Rebuild the identity, Mustang IMO is a good start. Dealer Network and experience should be up there too, it's been far too wrong for far too long.

[brismike]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Try having a Territory and a BMW in the garage and regularly swapping between them. I drive around more corners with my windscreen wipers on than you can poke a stick at!

Same with me and swapping between the GT and our Smartcar. I have sort of got around it by the feel of the stalks and the resistance they have when using them. But I still occasionally put the wipers on to turn left in the GT lol.

Cheers Mike

[prydey]

so.... apparently if you are in an event with over 60 competitors and you finish in the top 10, you are rubbish??

and... last i checked, being successful was about making more money than you spend, not worrying about being the leader in sales.

[b0son]

maybe not rubbish, but when you used to be in the top3 and have been steadily slipping down, then at the very least, you are in trouble.

its a shame, because they really do have some top notch product (Focus ST for under $40k FFS!). I do agree with some sentiments that the Falcon has tarnished the brand... being the brand's flagship for so long, but having a reputation as poor quality, dated design/engineering, that surely has to rub off on the brand as a whole. buyers seem to either want ultra cheap, or luxury... Ford is very much in the middle where buyers right now don't seem to be looking, more expensive than Asians, but not perceived as prestige so overlooked in favour of VW etc.

[1TUFFUTE]

If you search for 'most complained about drivers' I'm sure you'll find some articles. Some are those 'name an shame' set ups where you report dangerous driving. From memory Holden was the worst followed by Toyota and then fords.
Food for thought but perhaps shows more reasons why local cars are loosing sales and good image. (The owners that buy them are impacting brand image with their driving)

[Spammy]

Best thing for Ford sales in Australia will be when the Falcon finally stops production. The smell of death created by the never ending Falcon saga is not helping at all.

Look at Mitsubishi, once they gave up on the death spiral of the 380 and focussed on importing cars that people actutally want to buy.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by prydey

so.... apparently if you are in an event with over 60 competitors and you finish in the top 10, you are rubbish??

and... last i checked, being successful was about making more money than you spend, not worrying about being the leader in sales.

10 years of negative sales numbers is not success in anyone’s book. And they have lost a **** load of money in that time. I get the whole, "we love fan", but come on guys, sometimes a spade is a spade!!


We all want Ford to be making lots of money, winning the sales race, making great cars & everyone loving the brand Ford in gerenal. This is not reality in 2015. Let’s hope for better years to come, but don’t BS around with Ford's current position in the market place!!

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

10 years of negative sales numbers is not success in anyone’s book. And they have lost a **** load of money in that time. I get the whole, "we love fan", but come on guys, sometimes a spade is a spade!!

i guess it depends if you talk about Ford as 'local products' or as a 'global manufacturer'.

the local products no doubt bleed money, and the doors are closing. no argument.

suggesting that the euro models are also failing because they aren't topping their segments is a big assumption though.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by prydey

i guess it depends if you talk about Ford as 'local products' or as a 'global manufacturer'.

the local products no doubt bleed money, and the doors are closing. no argument.

suggesting that the euro models are also failing because they aren't topping their segments is a big assumption though.

I agree sales numbers aren't everything, but come on!! The import products (Ranger aside) in Australia are struggling more than Falcon is!!! Sales figures for Focus, Fiesta & Kuga are totally crap, especially considering they are in segments going off at the moment. Focus & Fiesta are also in sales decline phases, which has to have everyone at Ford Australia worried. Surely!!

I get the whole, better to make a profit, than top the sales chart, but if numbers continue to drop (on what should be Ford's future bread & butter models) then making a profit becomes harder.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Joe5619

I agree sales numbers aren't everything, but come on!! The import products (Ranger aside) in Australia are struggling more than Falcon is!!! Sales figures for Focus, Fiesta & Kuga are totally crap, especially considering they are in segments going off at the moment. Focus & Fiesta are also in sales decline phases, which has to have everyone at Ford Australia worried. Surely!!

I get the whole, better to make a profit, than top the sales chart, but if numbers continue to drop (on what should be Ford's future bread & butter models) then making a profit becomes harder.

thats 100% assumptions based on what?

how much does it cost ford to import the cars here? how many do they need to sell in order to recoup those costs and make it worth while?

why do you consider a model 'struggling' simply because it isn't selling as well as something else?

every manufacturer would want to sell as many as they can, but just because they aren't leading the charts, doesn't automatically mean they are in trouble.

[Adamz Ghia]

Id say a car maker is struggling when they've had a decade of sales and market share decline. That is not an assumption, that is a fact. If Ford is happy with the way they're going then something is very wrong culturally within Ford Aust.

[BDA074]

Is anyone able to post some Ford sales figures by model so we can talk facts?

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by prydey

thats 100% assumptions based on what?

how much does it cost ford to import the cars here? how many do they need to sell in order to recoup those costs and make it worth while?

why do you consider a model 'struggling' simply because it isn't selling as well as something else?

every manufacturer would want to sell as many as they can, but just because they aren't leading the charts, doesn't automatically mean they are in trouble.

What part of year on year on year of SALE DECLINE don't you get (On import products)? A company with continued negative growth is one in trouble.
But anyway, lets just agree to disagree. We are going around in circles & people what numbers for sales of the month!!

[Bossxr8]

To be totally factual, sales of Fiesta, Focus and Kuga are a complete disaster. These cars should be near the top of their segments, but have completely bombed. And it's not like Ford haven't spent millions on advertising them either. Yet sales have completely flopped, and continue to slide. These cars should be Fords bread and butter.

I will give Mondeo a pass as it's within weeks of being replaced with a brand new one.

[Adamz Ghia]

Fiesta is due for replacement soon too isn't it, surely within the next 18 months? The current shape has been with us since 2008.

[Bossxr8]

From memory 18-24 months. Can't come soon enough.

[Adamz Ghia]

What has Hyundai done that Ford hasn't...? You look at their products, both look funky, both offer high levels of equipment, personally I would say Ford is built to a higher quality although Hyundai has come in leaps and bounds over the last 8 years. And Hyundai is flying while Ford can't catch a positive trend. Maybe Ford are pricing themselves out of the market...? They might think they have a premium product but at the end of the day it's a Ford. It can't all be blamed on dealers because the four I go to are all excellent, As for advertising Ford sponsor the best AFL team over the last 10 years and they have plenty of ads on TV.

I didn't compare Ford to Mazda because in my opinion the 2, 3, 6 and CX-3 are better than their Ford equivalents, while CX-5 is on par with Kuga.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

No it's not.....they are totally different things.(not to mention these are actual statistics...not so e random view) If it was ford in those two examples perhaps you could argue that according to the surveys.....ford was on the 'nose'. But apparently Holden is.

So I'd assume it's a combined pile of things effecting fords sales. Starting with their biggest Aussie seller now becoming a niche car.
Dealer problems, advertising,car availability and many things all combine I'd say.

Calling it as simply a dealer issue, or a advertising issue(as if advertising a niche car is going to do anything)......is as I said, a cop out. So is branding ford as dirty on the nose.
Reality is it's a combination of the same things that every brand has issues with.

Imho

You always finish with the catch all "every brand" throw away line. Here is a thought. If Ford is like "every brand" then why isn't it selling like the six brands above it?

Perhaps some issues are either unique to Ford like its stellar effort in ducking and weaving for years around recalls and proper warranty work as well as making cars with known defects or faults for months or years with no changes. When the customer presented the inevitable problem to receive the standard "never heard of it before" or the even better "within factory tolerance". A policy I would argue burnt through a heck of a lot of customers and caused massive brand damage, even if it made the spreadsheet look good for a few years.

You can't just be the same as everyone else and plunge down the charts in sales. There is more to the story.

We can debate the cause, but there is one and its had a consequence. Other brands for all their issues are increasing in sales - Ford isn't.

[russellw]

The first set of graphical stats has been uploaded to the Tech portal.

Cheers
Russ

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

You always finish with the catch all "every brand" throw away line. Here is a thought. If Ford is like "every brand" then why isn't it selling like the six brands above it?

Perhaps some issues are either unique to Ford like its stellar effort in ducking and weaving for years around recalls and proper warranty work as well as making cars with known defects or faults for months or years with no changes. When the customer presented the inevitable problem to receive the standard "never heard of it before" or the even better "within factory tolerance". A policy I would argue burnt through a heck of a lot of customers and caused massive brand damage, even if it made the spreadsheet look good for a few years.

You can't just be the same as everyone else and plunge down the charts in sales. There is more to the story.

We can debate the cause, but there is one and its had a consequence. Other brands for all their issues are increasing in sales - Ford isn't.

If you don't think every brand has the same issues then your naive or hugely biased! Look at the tables in the stats section. Clearly shows over the last ten years the only ford class to drop heavily is the 'large' segment. The others have stayed about level over the ten year period.

So that 'hints' at this being mostly about the falcon and commadore 'booms', and as they've settled and faded away, they are showing us where they actually sit on the table.
Spend your time at a ford forum and you'll hear...oh it's the bushes
Spend your time at Hyundai and you'll hear.....oh the dam diesel filter again
Spend your time at Holden and you'll hear......oh the water pump again

As far as I'm concerned, you can tell there's nothing fatally wrong when the biggest complaints are about the looks of the lady doing the add campaign

[prydey]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

Look at the tables in the stats section. Clearly shows over the last ten years the only ford class to drop heavily is the 'large' segment. The others have stayed about level over the ten year period.

wonders will never cease. i actually agree with you on something


looking solely at market share is very misleading. looking at the sales data (thanks Russ) there are a few models that are trending downwards, but overall the trend is reasonably stable for the ford products except for the local ones. like most models, there are peaks and troughs, so hard to judge on a month by month basis.

another thing to consider is the amount of models each manufacturer has in the market place. Ford's line up has remained about the same size. they haven't really introduced any additional products to market. most new products have coincided with an old model being culled. other manufacturers have increased their model line up. this will automatically increase your market share (like nissan) but doesn't necessarily mean the existing models are selling any better.

there are a handful of members on here that have inundated these sales threads with negativity for as long as i've been a member and its still ongoing. they have a bad experience and then make it their life ambition to talk the brand down at every opportunity.

meanwhile, there are a great deal of people on this and other fora that tell a different story and have different experiences. its all relative i guess.