Oil change

[stefcio007]

I was stuck in traffic for a long time this week which is bad for the DPF generally, made it to 91% before the traffic it was at 56%.
A quick run on the freeway (10 minutes?) and it initiated a regen and dropped back to 28%.

Actually, if the exhaust temp reaches about 300*C it will keep the soot levels stable and you'll rarely need to do a regen to get your levels down.

It would be interesting if I could program a counter to count how many times a regen occurs on the one oil. I could log it manually but that would be a bit annoying.

[rondeo]

Some good information on DPFs:

https://www.ctscorp.com/products/sen...nowledge-base/

The last sentence here is interesting:

https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/dpf_ash.php#lube-chem

And a bit of detail:

https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/...r11_sappok.pdf

[rondeo]

TITAN Pro Flex Claim:

https://www.fuchs.com/au/en/special/...lex-sae-5w-30/

Quote: The product also is advantageous for cars with exhaust gas after treatment systems such as catalysts or particulate filters, as it keeps their conversion rate high and provides better life time.

Keeping the conversion rate high presumably means at 350 deg C, ie normal
exhaust temp. That would theoretically lead to fewer regens, but I can see no facts to support the claim apart from anecdotal evidence.

[cobrin]

Yeah they're good technical sites to get an understanding of DPF's soot and ash.

[Highway cruser]

Originally Posted by rondeo

Some good information on DPFs:

https://www.ctscorp.com/products/sen...nowledge-base/

The last sentence here is interesting:

https://www.dieselnet.com/tech/dpf_ash.php#lube-chem

And a bit of detail:

https://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/...r11_sappok.pdf

Interesting read on the difference between soot and ash. I did a quick search on dpf cleaning and it seams that most of the cleaning is just pressure washing. If you can get at the dpf itself then it's just a case of getting the gerni out and washing it. Once the water runs clean the dpf is clean. Does anyone know if you can actually get to the dpf itself?


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[bundybear75]

Originally Posted by Highway cruser

Interesting read on the difference between soot and ash. I did a quick search on dpf cleaning and it seams that most of the cleaning is just pressure washing. If you can get at the dpf itself then it's just a case of getting the gerni out and washing it. Once the water runs clean the dpf is clean. Does anyone know if you can actually get to the dpf itself?


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The DPF looks like a muffler and is located under about where the centre console is. Identifiable by 3 temperature sensors along it. I would imagine it is a simple case of unbolting to remove for cleaning. (I haven't checked though)

[rondeo]

I don't think normally the Mondeo DPF should need ash cleaning for the life of the car.
Not a DIY exercise anyway, unless trashing it is an option.
Usually it's the fuel vaporizer or the differential pressure sensor/hoses that fail.
Seems to me the biggest risk for ash build up might be heavy oil consumption.

The question I haven't found an answer to is why Ford doesn't specify a C class oil.
So far I've speculated that it could be a matter of reaching the fuel efficiency target,
or the engine absolutely needs the anti wear additives, or the fuel quality requires it,
or the DPF is such it will last the life of the car anyway and so on...

The best advice of course is to use the oil specified by Ford, and don't worry about the DPF,
it's not a scheduled maintenance item.

[Highway cruser]

Originally Posted by rondeo

I don't think normally the Mondeo DPF should need ash cleaning for the life of the car.
Not a DIY exercise anyway, unless trashing it is an option.
Usually it's the fuel vaporizer or the differential pressure sensor/hoses that fail.
Seems to me the biggest risk for ash build up might be heavy oil consumption.

The question I haven't found an answer to is why Ford doesn't specify a C class oil.
So far I've speculated that it could be a matter of reaching the fuel efficiency target,
or the engine absolutely needs the anti wear additives, or the fuel quality requires it,
or the DPF is such it will last the life of the car anyway and so on...

The best advice of course is to use the oil specified by Ford, and don't worry about the DPF,
it's not a scheduled maintenance item.

With the cost of a replacement dpf I think it wise to do all you can to protect it. When I get the opportunity I think I'll pull it out just to have a look at it and see what it looks like. Looks like the hardest bit will be getting under the thing to work on it. Not like he old patrol that was easy to get under.
I really don't know or understand why Ford would recommend to use an oil that's not dpf safe, seems ridiculous to me. So when it's ready for its next oil change (not to far away) I will definitely be using either c2 or c3 oil. Do what you can to protect the dpf.


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[rondeo]

Easiest way to check DPF is with Forscan and elm adapter.

Normally the range of loading is from about 20 to 80%.
It's called soot loading, but as you can see from the articles posted,
the minimum figure is really mostly due to ash.

[NZ XR6]

Originally Posted by Highway cruser

With the cost of a replacement dpf I think it wise to do all you can to protect it. When I get the opportunity I think I'll pull it out just to have a look at it and see what it looks like. Looks like the hardest bit will be getting under the thing to work on it. Not like he old patrol that was easy to get under.
I really don't know or understand why Ford would recommend to use an oil that's not dpf safe, seems ridiculous to me. So when it's ready for its next oil change (not to far away) I will definitely be using either c2 or c3 oil. Do what you can to protect the dpf.


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It is difficult to understand why the engine manufacturer (Peugeot) recommends a C2 oil and Ford doesn't.



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[ivorya]

With this,

ACEA C1 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil with Lowest SAPS-Level, intended for use as catalyst compatible Oil at extended Drain Intervals in Vehicles with all Types of modern Aftertreatment Systems and High Performance Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines that are designed to be capable of using Low Viscosity Oils with a minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.9 mPa*s.

ACEA C2 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil with Mid SAPS-Level, intended for use as catalyst compatible Oil at extended Drain Intervals in Vehicles with all Types of modern Aftertreatment Systems and High Performance Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines that are designed to be capable of using Low Viscosity Oils with a minimum HTHS Viscosity of 2.9 mPa*s.

ACEA C3 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil with Mid SAPS-Level, intended for use as catalyst compatible Oil at extended Drain Intervals in Vehicles with all Types of modern Aftertreatment Systems and High Performance Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines that are designed to be capable of using Oils with a minimum HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 mPa*s.

ACEA C4 Stable, stay-in-grade Engine Oil with Low SAPS-Level, intended for use as catalyst compatible Oil at extended Drain Intervals in Vehicles with all Types of modern Aftertreatment Systems and High Performance Passenger Car & Light Duty Van Gasoline & DI Diesel Engines that are designed to be capable of using Oils with a minimum HTHS Viscosity of 3.5 mPa*s.

Why not a C1 oil?
Low SAPS, and lower min HTHS Viscosity.
Can anyone shed some light for me? Am i to assume the higher min HTHS would give better engine wear characteristics but maybe less economy?

[cobrin]

yeah it's a close relationship between protection/fuel efficiency. Low HTHS good for economy and meets the rest of the stringent oil specification:
stay in grade
sludge
oxidation
extended drain intervals
Level of wear protection
ect...

and there's more, can't remember off the top of my head atm.

[Highway cruser]

So from what I can gather we could use c2, c3 or c4. C2 being a low saps oil that doesn't give quite as much protection as the c3, but the c3 is a mid saps oil. Where as the c4 seems to be a low saps but gives the same protection as the c3.
Do I have that right?


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[NZ XR6]

Not quite, C2 and C3 are mid-SAPS, C1 and C4 low-SAPS. C1 and C2 are low HTHS, C3 and C4 mid HTHS.

The Ford spec oil is low HTHS for improved fuel economy, so C1 and C2 should be OK based.

I expect any of the oils would be OK in a Mondeo.

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[rondeo]

Originally Posted by NZ XR6

It is difficult to understand why the engine manufacturer (Peugeot) recommends a C2 oil and Ford doesn't.



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Exactly.

From what I gather, low HTSH fuel efficient oils provide a similar level of wear protection, but cost more to make,
due to the additives required.
Connection between HTSH and engine wear looks complicated.
Not just a matter of thinner oil etc.
Being a skinflint, I figure I would not save enough on fuel to warrant the extra cost.

Another complication (for philosophers) is anti wear additives and DPF ash.
There's an oil on the shelves with 'full zinc protection' advertised on the container.
Zinc forms an incombustible ash (metal oxide), as do other wear additives; comntaining Calcium, Magnesium and others.
Ash formed by these additives are unique, melt at different temps etc, and are more or less easy to remove from DPF.
The engines I run burn very little oil, so I don't care.
Nulon C3 oil uses zinc, according to the MSDS, but I've no idea what the consequences might be for DPF.

I use Nulon C3 when it's on special at $80/10l.
I run two of these cars so it makes a difference to my pocket.
I'm very happy with my cars, they have been reliable and a pleasure to drive,
biggest problem is lack of credible information, or customer support.

It's great, this interest in oils and DPFs, there's not much else going wrong.

[FASTXR]

After reading about HTSH, SAPS and C2/3/4 I've concluded that I really have NFI!

I need to change the oil in my diesel Titanium, so can I just get a simple yes or no to the following oils:

Fuchs Titan Pro Flex SAE 5W-30
Fuchs Titan Supersyn F Eco-FE SAE 0W-30 (this is what is recommended on the Fuchs website)
Nulon C3
Penrite C3 or C4 (note - the Penrite website recommends the use of their DPF cleaner every time you fill your tank)

[stefcio007]

I'm using Penrite C4 and my DPF soot loading is doing just fine, no problems. I have real-time soot loading monitoring setup so that I can glance while driving and know when a regen is occuring.

I use Torque and have a custom PID to show the data as ForScan won't work with my car to show DPF values.

[Highway cruser]

Originally Posted by FASTXR

(note - the Penrite website recommends the use of their DPF cleaner every time you fill your tank)

Not quite right, you use it every 5,000km's and add the bottle (375mls) to 60 litres of fuel.



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[FASTXR]

Apologies, you're correct - I was reading the part about blockage prevention.

[rondeo]

Originally Posted by FASTXR

After reading about HTSH, SAPS and C2/3/4 I've concluded that I really have NFI!

I need to change the oil in my diesel Titanium, so can I just get a simple yes or no to the following oils:

Fuchs Titan Pro Flex SAE 5W-30
Fuchs Titan Supersyn F Eco-FE SAE 0W-30 (this is what is recommended on the Fuchs website)
Nulon C3
Penrite C3 or C4 (note - the Penrite website recommends the use of their DPF cleaner every time you fill your tank)

Best to follow Ford's specification, particularly under warranty.
My interest in this thread is mainly to do with conflicting statements from
vehicle manufacturers and oil mixers regarding DPFs, as a has been outlined previously.

For me it's not a good idea to offer advice, better to ask questions.

Mondeos are great cars, (IMHO, if I'm not mistaken etc etc).

Another thing to bear in mind is that wear additives may not be fully compatible,
for example zinc and molybdenum, so swapping oils at random MAY not be ideal.

If in doubt, follow Ford.

Unfortunately Ford and the oil manufacturers appear not to agree. IMHO.

Regarding dpf fuel additives, I'm not a fan.
To throw the most expensive element after gold (platinum, according to the msds) onto the streets just seems silly to me.

[FASTXR]

No feedback on these oils?

[rondeo]

Best to follow Ford's specification, particularly under warranty.
My interest in this thread is mainly to do with conflicting statements from
vehicle manufacturers and oil mixers regarding DPFs, as a has been outlined previously.

For me it's not a good idea to offer advice, better to ask questions.

Wear additives may not be fully compatible,
for example zinc and molybdenum, so swapping oils at random MAY not be ideal, so I'd not swap different oils often.

Just follow Ford or the oil mixers,
you're on your own otherwise. The Ford DPF is OK.

Driving conditions are a big factor, so don't buy a diesel for short trips, you get plenty of soot and little burning off.

[NZ XR6]

Originally Posted by FASTXR

No feedback on these oils?

Yes, I've used the Fuchs Pro Flex. There was one DPF regen during the 12,000 kms before it was changed, the fuel consumption on trips improved by about 5% (unsure why), it didn't use any oil, and the engine was quieter after a cold start.

The other Fuchs oil is a mid-SAPS meeting the Ford spec, but it doesn't use the XTL base oil like the Pro Flex.

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[cobrin]

with the type of driving the mondeo gets (too many short runs 3.5km) if something were to go on the DPF it'd be done by now surely, since 90K kms of ownership. Sure there have been long drives in there and perhaps that's my saviour (few hunderd K's at a time) but it's not showing any symptoms and I'm happy about that at least.

Nulon C3-12 Full Synthetic 5W-30 Diesel Formula Long Life Engine Oil is the only engine oil it's had since buying the car in 2014 with 120K on it, now at 210K. Unfortunately I have no data to back anything up so it's all anecdotal, would be nice.

I'll keep going with Nulon me thinks.

[rondeo]

I've been reading about engine oil on the web, just for interest.

ZDDP, which is the most used anti wear additive is given a nice short rundown here:

https://www.experimentalaircraft.inf...rication-6.php

Castrol Edge is promoting titanium in their oil.

Both Penrite and Nulon oils use ZDDP, in the Mondeo recommended oils, according to their MSDS.
Penrite have this idea of 'full zinc' I suppose it's some sort of marketing mystique.
It would be nice if the oil blenders listed the ingredients like they do on vegemite jars.
MSDS are incomplete, they can avoid listing ingredients by claiming the are non hazardous.
ZDDP is known to be hazardous to aquatic life, so is required to be listed I suppose.

I don't lose much sleep on the oil issue, it's just interesting I reckon.

[cobrin]

If I ever did a DPF delete, I'd be right onto the highest Zinc oil I could find. As it is I'm digging the science behind Moly DTc.

[rondeo]

Hopefully not along these lines:

https://www.yahoo.com/news/conservat...190500408.html

[ivorya]

Originally Posted by cobrin

If I ever did a DPF delete, I'd be right onto the highest Zinc oil I could find. As it is I'm digging the science behind Moly DTc.

Was just thinking today whether there was any info regarding a comparison between Zn and Moly.
I know Zn would be cheaper than Moly but i wonder what other differences there are.

[rondeo]

Originally Posted by ivorya

Was just thinking today whether there was any info regarding a comparison between Zn and Moly.
I know Zn would be cheaper than Moly but i wonder what other differences there are.

Zn is an anti wear additive and detergent, whereas Moly is a friction modifier.
They are used together in some oils.
They do different things. Dr Google will explain.

This paper suggests they may not be compatible, having the effect of increasing engine deposits:


From:

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10...642-33841-0_35

'Generally, molybdenum dithiocarbamate (MoDTC) is added into engine oil as an effective friction modifier to improve fuel economy. Zinc dialkyldithiophosphate (ZnDDP) has also been used as a multifunction additive in engine oils for more than 50 years. However, the results of this study showed that the coexistence of MoDTC and ZnDDP in engine oil could cause deposits accretion of the oil in the TEOST 33C.'

Could and might?

And so on.

[Highway cruser]

Nice to see everything is black and white then.